Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

[cupper]

You can slice it, dice it, ripple cut, Julienne or shoe string it. It still becomes a debate about religious beliefs.

True, Cupper. If you choose to take it there. And in retrospect the average person would probably do just that. To me, the label Islamist is not the religion Islam similar to the label pedophile wearing a priest's collar is not the same as the Catholic religion.

It's a stretch, but I'll give it to you.

I understand what you are saying, but the people that carry out these acts shouldn't be given the label of Islamist, it only gives some veil of credibility and justification to what they do. Rather the label that they deserve - Violent Criminal.

 

[Jed]

First off, I think you missed the point of quote by the writer in the article. He is saying exactly what you are criticizing him for, that Human Beings have rights and are entitled to respect of their beliefs. However the author steps on his own scrotum by saying "Books and beliefs don't and aren't".

Secondly, don't confuse the corrupted and violent ideology of radical Islamic fundamentalists with Islamism and the tenants of Islam. What the Bin Ladens and Al Alakis and Al Zawahiris of the world espouse and their followers cling to is not compatible with the teachings of Islam. That is what needs to be stamped out. How do you do that? That is the question that should be asked.

I almost agree with you except for the above marked in orange. I think, from my readings of blogs, English translation of the Quran, etal, that a literal translation of the Quran, shows that the unchanging fundamentalist beliefs of these scum of the earth individuals, are indeed compatible with Islam.

This is not the same as fundamentalist Christians who get hung up on the old testament of the Bible and forget about the new testament.

 

[GnyHwy]

I don't buy that line.

Look at it again.

" To us, the fight against religious ideology isn't a struggle against human rights but a struggle for them. Human beings have rights and are entitled to respect. Books and beliefs don't and aren't".

As I see it, the argument against religious ideals isn't to strip persons of their freedoms, but rather to give them their freedoms to do what they want.  Do what you like and practice it cordially.  To argue and target the other person is wrong, but to argue the ideas (book) and perceptions (beliefs) is perfectly rational.  This is something that "believers" can't seem to get past. 

For some reason believers take it personally when someone questions what someone wrote 100s/1000s of years ago.
 

 

[cupper]

Suicide bombings, killing of innocents, intolerance of other faiths including other sects within Islam are all incompatible with what Islam teaches.

From Wikipedia

Islam, as with other Abrahamic religions, views suicide as one of the greatest sins and utterly detrimental to one's spiritual journey. A verse in the Quran instructs;

    "And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."
    — Qur'an, Sura 4(An-Nisa), ayat 29 [11]

Most Muslim scholars and clerics consider suicide forbidden and similarly include suicide bombing as being equally forbidden.

However, those who engage in Islamic terrorism, including those who attacked the World Trade Center on September 11, 2001, believe that those who use suicide attacks to kill "infidels" are rewarded with seventy-two virgins in paradise. Islamic spiritualism is not attained without maintenance and forbearance of peace. Bukhari and Muslim, two of the most renowned scholars in Islam, state: "He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet.". This provides an incentive for Muslims to preserve peace in order to attain higher status in the eyes of God. This applies to non-Muslims as well as Muslims as seen in the following quote by Prophet Muhammad: “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I [Prophet Muhammad] will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.”

Abu Dawud: "This puts suicide bombing and suicide into proper perspective within Islamic traditions, ultimately denouncing suicide of any form."

The prohibition of suicide has also been recorded in statements of hadith, (sayings of Muhammad). For example:

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."
    —Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."
    — Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:71:670

Furthermore, Ja'far Al-Sadiq, the sixth Shia Imam, has said the following with regards to suicide:

    Abi Walad said, I heard Aba Abd Allah say: “Whoever kills himself, intentionally, he will be in the fire of hell for eternity.”

 

[Brad Sallows]

The Islamists _are_ Islam.  The "peace and acceptance" - or any other stripe of reform - Muslims are the schismatics.

Christ's teachings are overwhelmingly peaceful but the religion which bears his name has been repeatedly perverted to serve tyranny and subjugation.  Mohammed's religion does not need to be twisted to serve subjugation - that is its aim.

The problem with Islamists "walking among us" is that they have no intention of assimilating.  If you're not going to assimilate, then stay the frick wherever you are.

 

[cupper]

The problem with Islamists "walking among us" is that they have no intention of assimilating.  If you're not going to assimilate, then stay the frick wherever you are.

And how do you define assimilation? :waiting:

 

[George Wallace]

I understand what you are saying, but the people that carry out these acts shouldn't be given the label of Islamist,

As you are so often in the habit of using definitions from Wikipedia; how about this definition:

Islamist [ˈɪzləmɪst]
adj
(Non-Christian Religions / Islam) supporting or advocating Islamic fundamentalism

n
(Non-Christian Religions / Islam) a supporter or advocate of Islamic fundamentalism

Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

 

[George Wallace]

Suicide bombings, killing of innocents, intolerance of other faiths including other sects within Islam are all incompatible with what Islam teaches.

From Wikipedia

Again that trustworthy source, Wikipedia.  I call BS.

Here is some more info from the Quran:

Surah 9.5: "After the forbidden months have passed, slay the unbelievers wherever you find them; capture them, torture them, besiege them, prepare every stratagem of warfare against them..."

Surah 9.29: "Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, Nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden By God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion Of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, Until they pay the Jizya (a tax on infidels) With willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

From another source:

Examples of verses from the Quran which have been quoted to justify attacks on civilians include


Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not. 2:216

The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; 5:33

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. 9:5

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! 9:29-30

You might note that both Surah 9.5 and Surah 9.29 do not specifically target infidels, but also includes fellow Muslims who may not follow what the Islamists consider the 'true' words of the Quran.  Surah 9.30 specifically targets other religions.

As noted in a previous posts, these are only two of over 100 Surahs that call for violence.  Surely you can not then deduce that this is truly a religion of peace and tolerance?  If you do, you have your head so far in the sand you will be raped on Man Thursday (Another hypocritical statement on their violent beliefs).

 

[George Wallace]

And how do you define assimilation? :waiting:

Perhaps "integration" may have been a better word, but you apologist attitude should still see the intent of the statement.  If they are so unhappy/unaccepting with our way of life/culture/beliefs/religion/politics/etc. then they have the FREEDOM (in our society) to leave and go to a country where their beliefs have some common ground.  If that is too difficult for you to comprehend, then perhaps your usefulness in this discussion is over.

 

[George Wallace]

It is interesting to hear the statements from these murderers that these sorts of attacks are in retaliation to the West's military forces being in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. and their killing of Muslims in foreign lands.  If we look at recent history, we will see that Muslim fundamentalists have actually initated attacks on the West well before any Western troops were deployed in force to Muslim nations.

Examples of attacks

•4 September 1972 - Munich Olympic Massacre.
•18 April 1983 - April 1983 U.S. Embassy bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. 63 killed.
•26 February 1993 - World Trade Center bombing. 6 killed.
•24 December 1994 - Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
•25 June 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
•7 August 1998 - 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
•11 September 2001 - September 11, 2001 attacks 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.[65]
•13 December 2001 - Suicide attack on India's parliament in New Delhi. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. Allegedly done by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.
•3 March 2002 - Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 29 dead, 133 injured
•9 March 2002 - Café suicide bombing in Jerusalem; 11 killed, 54 injured.
•7 May 2002 - Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
•24 September 2002 - Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[66][67]
•12 October 2002 - Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.
•16 May 2004 - Casablanca Attacks - 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafaia Jihadia.
•11 March 2004 - Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured. (alleged link to Al-Qaeda)
•3 September 2004 Approximately 344 civilians including 186 children, are killed during the Beslan school hostage crisis.[68][69]
•4 February 2005 - Muslim militants attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
•7 July 2005 - Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
•23 July 2005 - Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
•29 October 2005 - 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[70]
•9 November 2005 - 2005 Amman bombings. Over 60 killed and 115 injured, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan.[71][72] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[73]
•7 March 2006 - 2006 Varanasi bombings. An attack attributed to Lashkar-e-Toiba by Uttar Pradesh government officials, over 28 killed and over 100 injured, in a series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi.[74] Uttar Pradesh government officials.

Source

 

[JorgSlice]

Don't forget the Air India bombing.

 

[George Wallace]

Don't forget the Air India bombing.

They were not Muslim extremists, but Sikh extremists.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm sure there are man, many offensive passages in the Torah and the Christian Bible, too.

While the Christian, properly Protestant, reformation ~ which began around 1500 CE and more or less ended with the Peace of Westphalia in 1648 ~ was a religious thing it was not exclusively so: it was also, often dominantly, a socio-cultural phenomenon about the place or role of an emerging educated, independent, middle class. Additionally, there was a nationalist element that shouldn't be underestimated in Scandinavia, Britain, the Netherlands or the North German principalities.

In so far as the "rough edges" of Judaism, Christianity and Islam ~ those offensive passages and all that ~ the Jews and Christians "solved" them during the Enlightenment ~ which, if you accept Spinoza, Locke, Hutcheson and Hume as its "fathers," followed hot on the heels of the Reformation and, many would argue, rested upon the foundation of the Reformation.

In my view the solution to the "root causes" of Islamism (or jihadism or whatever we want to call the radical, violent, barbarian movement that uses Islam as both a crutch and a recruiting tool) lies in a Muslim Enlightenment which, I suspect must also rest upon a foundation of Reformation.

If we think 21st century Muslim violence is, in any way, more terrible than Christian violence it is because we have failed to study the Thirty Years War.

I have said many times that I am hoping for new Thirty (or Forty or Fifty) Years War that will sweep through the Islamic Crescent - probably in response to a Reformation movement - and will lay the place waste and ripe for an Enlightenment.

 

[George Wallace]

I have said many times that I am hoping for new Thirty (or Forty or Fifty) Years War that will sweep through the Islamic Crescent - probably in response to a Reformation movement - and will lay the place waste and ripe for an Enlightenment.

Or it could swing the opposite way, as we have seen in the distant past where Iran and Iraq, once the cradle of civilization and center of intellectual and scientific advancement, were decimated by an onslaught of fanatical intolerant religious zealots/invaders.  History is so cyclical, it could be happening again.  Time will tell.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Or it could swing the opposite way, as we have seen in the distant past where Iran and Iraq, once the cradle of civilization and center of intellectual and scientific advancement, were decimated by an onslaught of fanatical intolerant religious zealots/invaders.  History is so cyclical, it could be happening again.

I think the causes of the most recent Iran-Iraq wars were complex, and while there was a sectarian component I, personally, doubt it was a dominant or even a very important factor. I think of Iran-Iraq wars as more like the Franco-Prussian varieties.

 

[George Wallace]

ERC

I was speaking of the DISTANT past.  Hundreds of centuries ago.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>And how do you define assimilation?

Cultural, not linguistic.  Are there any more word games we can play?

>If we think 21st century Muslim violence is, in any way, more terrible than Christian violence it is because we have failed to study the Thirty Years War.

21st century Muslim violence is, so far, more terrible than 21st century Christian violence.  If it were 1613 I might judge differently, but it is 2013.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Suicide bombings, killing of innocents, intolerance of other faiths including other sects within Islam are all incompatible with what Islam teaches.

From Wikipedia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA

From Billy Connolly (at minimum, as reliable a source as Wikipedia)

 

[Jed]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA

From Billy Connolly (at minimum, as reliable a source as Wikipedia)

Hilarious, Recceguy. Now that's a good belly laugh. 

 

[Edward Campbell]

ERC

I was speaking of the DISTANT past.  Hundreds of centuries ago.

I don't know about "hundreds of centuries" (tens of thousands of years) but a few (almost eight) centuries ago the Mongols swept across Iran and Iraq and there was NO religious component to that, none at all. Eventually the Mongol invaders converted to Islam, the religion of the people they had conquered.