Islamic Terrorism in the West ( Mega thread)

[Remius]

>And how do you define assimilation?

Cultural, not linguistic.  Are there any more word games we can play?

>If we think 21st century Muslim violence is, in any way, more terrible than Christian violence it is because we have failed to study the Thirty Years War.

21st century Muslim violence is, so far, more terrible than 21st century Christian violence.  If it were 1613 I might judge differently, but it is 2013.

Brad, since we are only 13 years into the 21st century there's still time for that to change.  But looking at the 20th century, things like the IRA, the KKK etc are all examples of Christian violence that are likely on par. 

It is 2013.  By western standards for western cultures.  Most Islamic states are likely where we were in 1613.

 

[jollyjacktar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPkwkmhaVvA

From Billy Connolly (at minimum, as reliable a source as Wikipedia)

"lift the kilt, big hairy set of balls..."  Awesome vid.  ;D

 

[cupper]

>And how do you define assimilation?

Cultural, not linguistic.  Are there any more word games we can play?

It was a legitimate and reasonable question. I guess it was a little much to expect the same in return.

Perhaps I should clarify: By what definition do you determine if someone has "assimilated" or "integrated" into society?

Is it when they have accepted and participated in the societal norms while still practicing their own cultural and religious tenants?

Or is it when they have fully divested themselves of their past, essentially becoming a prototypical member of Western Society, in other words a member of the Borg. 

 

[Jed]

Brad, since we are only 13 years into the 21st century there's still time for that to change.  But looking at the 20th century, things like the IRA, the KKK etc are all examples of Christian violence that are likely on par.  

It is 2013.  By western standards for western cultures.  Most Islamic states are likely where we were in 1613.

I disagree. Not even close to being on par with Islamism violence and its tenants.

 

[cupper]

Since we are debating the legitimacy of definitions, It appears that the Associated Press has decided to suspend the use of Islamist as a term to describe Islamic terrorist groups.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/04/05/_islamist_definition_changed_in_the_ap_stylebook_two_days_after_illegal.html

The old definition read as (via the US News):

"Supporter of government in accord with the laws of Islam. Those who view the Quran as a political model encompass a wide range of Muslims, from mainstream politicians to militants known as jihadi."

While the new version reads a bit longer, and not unlike the immigration change, requests reporters take the time to offer more details on a case-by-case basis:

"An advocate or supporter of a political movement that favors reordering government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam. Do not use as a synonym for Islamic fighters, militants, extremists or radicals, who may or may not be Islamists.

"Where possible, be specific and use the name of militant affiliations: al-Qaida-linked, Hezbollah, Taliban, etc. Those who view the Quran as a political model encompass a wide range of Muslims, from mainstream politicians to militants known as jihadi."

And if that isn't a legitimate definition by George's standards, Here is Merriam - Webster:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/islamist?show=0&t=1369584838

Is·lam·ism noun \is-ˈlä-ˌmi-zəm, iz-, -ˈla-; ˈiz-lə-\
1
: the faith, doctrine, or cause of Islam
2
: a popular reform movement advocating the reordering of government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam

 

[cupper]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/110654/post-1232002.html#msg1232002

Examples of attacks

•4 September 1972 - Munich Olympic Massacre.
•18 April 1983 - April 1983 U.S. Embassy bombing in Beirut, Lebanon. 63 killed.
•26 February 1993 - World Trade Center bombing. 6 killed.
•24 December 1994 - Air France Flight 8969 hijacking in Algiers by 3 members of Armed Islamic Group and another terrorist. 7 killed including 4 hijackers.
•25 June 1996 - Khobar Towers bombing, 20 killed, 372 wounded.
•7 August 1998 - 1998 United States embassy bombings in Tanzania and Kenya. 224 dead. 4000+ injured.
•11 September 2001 - September 11, 2001 attacks 4 planes hijacked and crashed into World Trade Center and The Pentagon by 19 hijackers. Nearly 3000 dead.[65]
•13 December 2001 - Suicide attack on India's parliament in New Delhi. Aimed at eliminating the top leadership of India and causing anarchy in the country. Allegedly done by Pakistan-based Islamist terrorist organizations, Jaish-E-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.
•3 March 2002 - Suicide bomb attack on a Passover Seder in a Hotel in Netanya, Israel. 29 dead, 133 injured
•9 March 2002 - Café suicide bombing in Jerusalem; 11 killed, 54 injured.
•7 May 2002 - Bombing in al-Arbaa, Algeria. 49 dead, 117 injured.
•24 September 2002 - Machine Gun attack on Hindu temple in Ahmedabad, India. 31 dead, 86 injured.[66][67]
•12 October 2002 - Bombing in Bali nightclub. 202 killed, 300 injured.
•16 May 2004 - Casablanca Attacks - 4 simultaneous attacks in Casablanca killing 33 civilians (mostly Moroccans) carried by Salafaia Jihadia.
•11 March 2004 - Multiple bombings on trains near Madrid, Spain. 191 killed, 1460 injured. (alleged link to Al-Qaeda)
•3 September 2004 Approximately 344 civilians including 186 children, are killed during the Beslan school hostage crisis.[68][69]
•4 February 2005 - Muslim militants attacked the Christian community in Demsa, Nigeria, killing 36 people, destroying property and displacing an additional 3000 people.
•7 July 2005 - Multiple bombings in London Underground. 53 killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured.
•23 July 2005 - Bomb attacks at Sharm el-Sheikh, an Egyptian resort city, at least 64 people killed.
•29 October 2005 - 29 October 2005 Delhi bombings. Over 60 killed and over 180 injured in a series of three attacks in crowded markets and a bus, just 2 days before the Diwali festival.[70]
•9 November 2005 - 2005 Amman bombings. Over 60 killed and 115 injured, in a series of coordinated suicide attacks on hotels in Amman, Jordan.[71][72] Four attackers including a husband and wife team were involved.[73]
•7 March 2006 - 2006 Varanasi bombings. An attack attributed to Lashkar-e-Toiba by Uttar Pradesh government officials, over 28 killed and over 100 injured, in a series of attacks in the Sankath Mochan Hanuman temple and Cantonment Railway Station in the Hindu holy city of Varanasi.[74] Uttar Pradesh government officials.

George, you do realize that of the examples you listed, only the 1972 Munich Massacre fits the proposition you made, that the "Islamists" were attacking long before Western Troops were massed in Muslim Nations.

 

[PuckChaser]

But looking at the 20th century, things like the IRA, the KKK etc are all examples of Christian violence that are likely on par. 

Did the IRA use the bible as justification for violence against the Brits? Just because they were Christians, doesn't mean they conducted "Christian violence". You've got 2 pretty weak examples.

 

[cupper]

The Irish "Troubles" stopped being a religious fight somewhere between the time of Cromwell and the French Revolution.

It was a fight for Irish Nationalism against the Occupation of the British. Catholic and Protestant was just a convenient line to separate the two groups.

 

[George Wallace]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/110654/post-1232002.html#msg1232002

George, you do realize that of the examples you listed, only the 1972 Munich Massacre fits the proposition you made, that the "Islamists" were attacking long before Western Troops were massed in Muslim Nations.

Really?  What date do you set as the date that Western Troops massed in Muslim Nations?  Please enlighten me.

I personally know of instances of Muslims from Algeria conducting violence in France in the early 1960's.

 

[Remius]

You can disagree, but Christians have had 2000 years to get it out of their systems. (and even then, I'm not sure) Historically you can go back and see plenty of comparable examples.  Whether it's the KKK's public and secret lynchings and hangings, burning women at the stake because they had warts and cats or whether Islamists behead and throw acid in school girls faces. 

No religion has it's hands clean.  Religious violence is religious violence and tends to be the worst kind. 

I agree with ERC.  Islam is in need of a reformation.  One similar to what Christians went through.  Until then, it is likely that we will have to endure and face radicals in it's worst form.  How we face it though without compromising our own values is the real question.

 

[George Wallace]

Since we are debating the legitimacy of definitions, It appears that the Associated Press has decided to suspend the use of Islamist as a term to describe Islamic terrorist groups.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/04/05/_islamist_definition_changed_in_the_ap_stylebook_two_days_after_illegal.html

And if that isn't a legitimate definition by George's standards, Here is Merriam - Webster:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/islamist?show=0&t=1369584838

:

I see your spelling with an "m" and not a "t".  IslamisT.  I am not talking about "Islamism"; but you have your slant on things and so I will leave you to it.

I would, however, like to point you to this in your link:

As with the "illegal" definition change, this latest tweak is being framed as a victory for activists—in this case, the Council on American-Islamic Relations—who called at the start of this year for the news organization to change their style guide, which is used widely but not universally by English-language publications. In a statement, CAIR said of the change, "We believe this revision is a step in the right direction and will result in fewer negative generalizations in coverage of issues related to Islam and Muslims."

CAIR may have links to terror organizations, and refuses to denounce various organizations such as Hamas and Hezbollah as terrorist organizations.  This makes CAIR suspect as stated in the final paragraph of your link:

Some in the conservative blogosphere are less than happy about the "Islamist" change, as you might expect, given that anti-Sharia activists routinely use the term to describe CAIR itself as an extremist organization. Then again, the AP wasn't exactly in the best standing with some on the right after the "illegal immigrant" Stylebook change, or for the news organization's Pulitzer Prize-winning series on the NYPD's covert monitoring of New York Muslims.

But if you are so inclined to ignore this; fine.

 

[cupper]

Really?  What date do you set as the date that Western Troops massed in Muslim Nations?  Please enlighten me.

I personally know of instances of Muslims from Algeria conducting violence in France in the early 1960's.

Well, starting with the 1983 US Embassy Bombings in Lebanon, I seem to recall that there were a significant number of US, French and other Western Troops in place. Many were killed when the truck bomb went off at the Marine Cops Barracks in Beirut.

And everything listed thereafter falls after Gulf I.

 

[cupper]

:deadhorse: :brickwall:

I guess you and I are just going to agree to disagree.

 

[jollyjacktar]

How true, how true. 

 

[George Wallace]

Well, starting with the 1983 US Embassy Bombings in Lebanon, I seem to recall that there were a significant number of US, French and other Western Troops in place. Many were killed when the truck bomb went off at the Marine Cops Barracks in Beirut.

And everything listed thereafter falls after Gulf I.

Really?  We all know that there were a lot of US Marines in the US Embassy in Lebanon.  That is a fact.  Were they out fighting Lebanese?  NO they were not.  Their presence in the US Embassy in Beirut has no relevance to this argument.  Nor do any of the other Western troops who were sent to protect their diplomatic staffs.

As for the Gulf War in 1990, I seem to recall it was due to a call by the Kuwaiti Government for help and protection from an invading Iraqi army.  Not the "Evil Empire" you seem to allude to.  It does show that these Muslim extremists can not distinguish between someone coming to their aid and someone invading.  But I guess that is 'gratitude for you'. 

I think that Dr. Zuhdi Jasser has some very sound advice, that we should be looking to other 'resources' in order to stop pumping dollars into oil producing Arab countries, and stop funding their extremist organizations.  Once the money stops, they will have fewer means to spread their religious and political vitriol views.

 

[cupper]

Not the "Evil Empire" you seem to allude to.

WTF?

Now you're just ....

:nevermind: Not worth going there.

 

[George Wallace]

WTF?

Now you're just ....

What?  Extrapolating what you really want to say from your posts?  Come on.  Let your inner voice out.  >

 

[cupper]

:boring:

Moving on.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Most Islamic states are likely where we were in 1613.

Islamic states are pursuing anti-blasphemy laws at the UN; they know the modern world and the international norms of human rights and customs.  Civilized behaviour in the 21st century is not unknown to them.  The neat thing about discovery is that it takes much less time to emulate than to discover something.  Stone-age tribes discovered in the modern era will not need 5,000 years to fully adapt to the world around them.

The Irish "troubles" stem from nationalism.  The KKK stems from racialism.  Religion in both cases is the facade and sometime excuse, not the motivator.

 

[cupper]

There was/is an element of religious intolerance with respect to the KKK. They had a history of anti-catholic views, and antisemitism was just as rampant as the racial intolerance. A lot of their views were justified from twisting various passages from the Bible to suit their needs.

But religion wasn't a significant part of their agenda to consider them religiously motivated.