Islam and Western Society

[Jed]

well here are a few instructions and guidelines

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death.  (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house.  Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.  (Deuteronomy  22:20-21 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death.  (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired.  As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies.  Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies.  So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever.  Amen.  That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires.  Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.  And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other.  Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.  When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.  Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip.  They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful.  They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents.  They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving.  They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway.  And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.  (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)


And these are just a few things (plenty of murder, rape and genocide to go around in the bible) that have been interpretted over the centuries and followed as guidelines.  So let's not portray that book as being morally superior.  The Koran has many of the same message of peace and love and just as many messages about death and stonings as the Bible does.  Both have been litteraly and figuratively interpretted by both religions and both have been used to commit and justify unspeakable acts.  I would rather uphold our western democratic values on equality of women (something the bible and the koran do not have) and concepts of individual freedom amongst others rather than refer to any religious doctrinal document.

Not being a Bible thumper expert; I believe most of these bible instructions are in the old testament. Also the key point I was making is both books are written by men who are not infallible.

The New testament definitely emphasizes the Christian message of forgiveness and not that of retribution or conversion to one way of thinking about God above all other faiths to the point of slaughter by men for all non believers.

So no; don't tell me that the message delivered in a Bible is just the same as the message delivered in the Koran.

 

[Remius]

@Jed

No, you said the Bible does not tell people to kill others when it fact it does.  In fact it does a lot.  More so in the Old Testament but also in the new testament.

I'm not saying they are the same but they both have the same messages.  Denying it does not make it any less true.

The Bible is the Christendom's holy tome.  All of it not just part of it.  I'm Christian but I certainly won't stone someone for working on the Sabbath like the bible instructs.  Just like some Muslims won't burn someone who is homosexual.

Again, don't hold up either book as paragons of love and rainbows because they are not.

Talk about our values and what not but using the Bible to say we are better is pretty Hypocritical and does nothing to denounce what they are doing.  In fact it might actually support their views.

Islam is after all an Abrahamic religion just like Christianism and Judaeism.

 

[Kat Stevens]

All three have something else in common; a "kind and loving God", at least until you step out of line, then it's all locusts and raining blood.  No thanks, you can keep all of them.

 

[Remius]

All three have something else in common; a "kind and loving God", at least until you step out of line, then it's all locusts and raining blood. 

This ^

 

[Good2Golf]

Was the Bible not written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus?

I've noticed that in more than one religion the main character has wandered in a desert snow storm for days on end and has a "vision"....then writes about it.

Oh yeah......Trudeau!!!  :

There, fixed that for you. 

 

[Jed]

@Jed

No, you said the Bible does not tell people to kill others when it fact it does.  In fact it does a lot.  More so in the Old Testament but also in the new testament.

I'm not saying they are the same but they both have the same messages.  Denying it does not make it any less true.

The Bible is the Christendom's holy tome.  All of it not just part of it.  I'm Christian but I certainly won't stone someone for working on the Sabbath like the bible instructs.  Just like some Muslims won't burn someone who is homosexual.

Again, don't hold up either book as paragons of love and rainbows because they are not.

Talk about our values and what not but using the Bible to say we are better is pretty Hypocritical and does nothing to denounce what they are doing. In fact it might actually support their views.

Islam is after all an Abrahamic religion just like Christianism and Judaeism.

I agree with just about everything you say here. I personally do not hold up the Bible and compare it to the Koran as you would do with some academic book report. The Bible tells a story of the Christian God, the Son of God, Jesus. The Koran tells the story of Muslim God, and the Prophet Mohammed. The life and teachings of Mohammed are exceedingly more violent  and vengeful then that of Jesus.

The general theme or message from Koran teachings concentrating on Mohammed, no matter which Imam is teaching is way different than the general theme or message from Bible teachings concentrating or the life and teachings of Jesus, the Son of God.

 

[Jed]

All three have something else in common; a "kind and loving God", at least until you step out of line, then it's all locusts and raining blood.  No thanks, you can keep all of them.

I really don't know  too much about the Bible or the Koran. I know even less about the Jewish books of faith.

I can relate to your simplified intake message.  I felt the same way for decades.

 

[Remius]

I agree with just about everything you say here. I personally do not hold up the Bible and compare it to the Koran as you would do with some academic book report. The Bible tells a story of the Christian God, the Son of God, Jesus. The Koran tells the story of Muslim God, and the Prophet Mohammed. The life and teachings of Mohammed are exceedingly more violent  and vengeful then that of Jesus.

The general theme or message from Koran teachings concentrating on Mohammed, no matter which Imam is teaching is way different than the general theme or message from Bible teachings concentrating or the life and teachings of Jesus, the Son of God.

Except that in essence it is the same God, but differing interpretations throughout all three Abrahamic religions.  Islam recognises the Bible in its original form as one of their tomes.  It sees Jesus as one of their prophets.  How you personally see the Bible is fine.  How it really is is another matter.  It's funny how you cherry pick what you want from the Bible but won't allow Muslims the same courtesy with the Koran.

Which is why we shouldn't use the Bible to argue or compare against the Koran in relation to Islamic extremism.  They're just as likely to throw it back in your face.  Glass houses and all.  A more humanist approach is the way to go.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Here is the iffy part for Islam, the Koran is "Perfect" and "Untainted" and the direct word of Allah as given by Gabriel. Therefore if you believe this you must take the whole book or not at all. This is the argument that ISIS is using, as mentioned in the link provided, if it's in the book and the hadiths, it's the word of God.

Which is why when arguing with a Muslim you need to ask where they stand on the Quaran, is it the word of god absolute, or human interpretation of that message complete with flaws. If you get an honest answer from that question then you can decide who you are dealing with. If it's the former and anything they say contradicts the Quaran then they are lying or badly educated.

Interesting the book I am reading now is a detailed read showing how much of the Quaran was borrowed from the Zortestion, Jewish and Christian books, even going so far to say that Muhammad may have had a Jewish scholar teaching him for a period. It also points out where the stories diverge or get mixed up. Slow read but informative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_I_Am_Not_a_Muslim 

 

[Remius]

Here is the iffy part for Islam, the Koran is "Perfect" and "Untainted" and the direct word of Allah as given by Gabriel. Therefore if you believe this you must take the whole book or not at all. This is the argument that ISIS is using, as mentioned in the link provided, if it's in the book and the hadiths, it's the word of God.

Which is why when arguing with a Muslim you need to ask where they stand on the Quaran, is it the word of god absolute, or human interpretation of that message complete with flaws. If you get an honest answer from that question then you can decide who you are dealing with. If it's the former and anything they say contradicts the Quaran then they are lying or badly educated.

Interesting the book I am reading now is a detailed read showing how much of the Quaran was borrowed from the Zortestion, Jewish and Christian books, even going so far to say that Muhammad may have had a Jewish scholar teaching him for a period. It also points out where the stories diverge or get mixed up. Slow read but informative http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_I_Am_Not_a_Muslim

And Roman Catholics for example have the same problem.  The Church teaches the infallibilty of the bible.  The Catholic position is that God inspired the biblical writers so that human words express the word and will of God.  The Bible also borrows heavily fro assyryan and Egyption mysticism.  Heck even many saints are derived or inspired from Roman/Greek pagan gods.

I might look for that book, thanks for the pointer. 

 

[Jed]

And Roman Catholics for example have the same problem.  The Church teaches the infallibilty of the bible.  The Catholic position is that God inspired the biblical writers so that human words express the word and will of God. The Bible also borrows heavily fro assyryan and Egyption mysticism.  Heck even many saints are derived or inspired from Roman/Greek pagan gods.

I might look for that book, thanks for the pointer.

I call BS on your statement about Roman Catholics. Take the whole Bible or not at all? Not in anything taught to me from grade 1 to grade 12. which included some pre vatican II education.

 

[Kat Stevens]

It just boggles my mind that we're willing to set the world on fire over something someone wrote a couple of thousand years ago because his imaginary friend told him to.  These days schizophrenics are medicated, back then they were venerated.

 

[Jed]

It just boggles my mind that we're willing to set the world on fire over something someone wrote a couple of thousand years ago because his imaginary friend told him to.  These days schizophrenics are medicated, back then they were venerated.

There is no logic to it. A person either believes or you don't.

 

[Remius]

I call BS on your statement about Roman Catholics. Take the whole Bible or not at all? Not in anything taught to me from grade 1 to grade 12. which included some pre vatican II education.

Sorry, I used the wrong term.  They refer to it as the inerrancy of the Bible.  Meaning that to them it is without error. Other denominations of chritianity claim that it is inffalible. knowing what I know now i really don't buy into a lot of what was taught to me from grades 1-13.

You may call BS all you want but look it up.

 

[CougarKing]

A man paying the price in the kingdom for going against what the Wahhabis want...

Reuters

Saudi court gives death penalty to man who renounced his Muslim faith
Tue Feb 24, 2015 4:40am EST

RIYADH (Reuters) - An Islamic court in Saudi Arabia has sentenced a man to death for renouncing his Muslim faith, the English-language daily Saudi Gazette reported on Tuesday.

The man, in his 20s, posted an online video ripping up a copy of Islam's holy book, the Koran, and hitting it with a shoe, the newspaper reported.

Saudi Arabia, the United States' top Arab ally and birthplace of Islam, follows the strict Wahhabi Sunni Muslim school and gives the clergy control over its justice system.

Under the Wahhabi interpretation of Sharia Islamic law, apostasy demands the death penalty, as do some other religious offences like sorcery, while blasphemy and criticism of senior Muslim clerics have incurred jail terms and corporal punishment.

(...SNIPPED)

 

[Jed]

Sorry, I used the wrong term.  They refer to it as the inerrancy of the Bible.  Meaning that to them it is without error. Other denominations of chritianity claim that it is inffalible. knowing what I know now i really don't buy into a lot of what was taught to me from grades 1-13.

You may call BS all you want but look it up.

I guess you don't follow the line of thought "Everything I need to know I learned in Kindergarten" then? 

 

[Remius]

I guess you don't follow the line of thought "Everything I need to know I learned in Kindergarten" then? 

I wish.  Life was some much easier and simpler back then. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

Maybe not the book itself, but it's head librarian;
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/papal-infallibility

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Sorry, I used the wrong term.  They refer to it as the inerrancy of the Bible.  Meaning that to them it is without error. Other denominations of chritianity claim that it is inffalible. knowing what I know now i really don't buy into a lot of what was taught to me from grades 1-13.

You may call BS all you want but look it up.

In Christianity for the last 100 years at least you can say the bible is wrong, burn it, step on it, do whatever. People may not like you, turn your back on you but how often have Christians killed people or rioted over it? There is a modern Islam but it's is very quiet and afraid, because speaking out is just to damm dangerous. As long as the nutbars can frighten the average Achmed, then nothing will change. Saudi Whabbism needs to be directly challenged, they have had 2 generations to heavily influence the Sunni Islamic world and have succeeded in pushing the average Achmeds towards a more radical and much less open minded view.

 

[Jed]

In Christianity for the last 100 years at least you can say the bible is wrong, burn it, step on it, do whatever. People may not like you, turn your back on you but how often have Christians killed people or rioted over it? There is a modern Islam but it's is very quiet and afraid, because speaking out is just to damm dangerous. As long as the nutbars can frighten the average Achmed, then nothing will change. Saudi Whabbism needs to be directly challenged, they have had 2 generations to heavily influence the Sunni Islamic world and have succeeded in pushing the average Achmeds towards a more radical and much less open minded view.

Precisely the point I was attempting to bring out.