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jollyjacktar
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I believe I already addressed your post earlier.MCG said:
Islam and Western Society
- Thread starter George Wallace
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McG
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jollyjacktar said:
My post yesterday noted that it was about the Canadian Muslim community. So, is your position that Canadian Muslims are accountable for society in Pakistan and Yemen, or are you saying that the Canadian Muslim community is doing what it needs to do?jollyjacktar said:
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jollyjacktar
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If members of your faith or organization are running amok committing barbarous crimes against humanity, in particular against fellow members of your faith. Then yes, I believe it is your responsibility to speak out and take your faith back from those who would defile it. And again, I've already as stated such prior.
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Not to be a dick, well okay, a bit of a dick, but our fellow "Christians" in the Balkans did some pretty awful shit to each other, all, as far as I could tell, over the number of crosspieces on a crucifix, and an alphabet. No it wasn't strictly speaking a war about religion, but it was definitly drawn up along religious lines.jollyjacktar said:
Jarnhamar
Army.ca Myth
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Kat Stevens said:
Those Christians are no better than the Muslims burrying women in the ground and bouncing rocks off their heads.
Islam doesn't have a role in Western society because it is too impossible for enough moderate Muslims to distance themselves from their seemingly psychopathic cousins and change how the rest of the world see's Islam.
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Jarnhamar said:
I get that completely, my pseudo point was that no Christians over here took to the streets in their thousands denouncing them. I however am in complete agreement that the only ones who can deal with radicalized Muslims, are Muslims.
McG
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The Canadian Muslim community is speaking out. You quoted a list of examples. You have dismissed such examples as not good enough. So what does the community need to do to satisfy you?jollyjacktar said:
Kat's analogy is exactly right. Canadian Roman Catholics and Canadian Ortodox Catholics were not held accountable for attrocities comitted along religious lines by thier religions in the Balkans. We did not demand that thier religions identity take precedence over thier place in Canadian society; we did not suggest they should abandon thier roles in our society (doctors, engineers, teachers, contructions workers, soldiers, etc) to engage in some foreign battle. We accept that Canadian Catholics (and Protestants, Jews, Aethiests, etc) hold certain Canadian values regardless of how thier bretheren may be behaving on the far side of the planet. That is how it should be.
Right again Kat. I would take it a step farther and and say that any societal barriers will get in the way of this. A western raised and educated Muslim trying to influence cultural values of Syria will be seen first as just another westerner. The problems in the middle east need to be solved from the middle east.Kat Stevens said:
Jarnhamar
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Kat Stevens said:
Your absolutely right. Could it be a matter of ignorance?
Christianity seems more diluted that Islam thus it's easier to compartmentalize it? For example when I hear or think of Muslims and Islam I think of 3 types.
1. Rational, good hearted citizens.
2. Crazy woman abusing frothing at the mouth types.
3. Muslims that seem to be moderate but are hiding their true beliefs.
When I think of Christians I think of 100 different sub-religions (if that's a word) with 1000 different takes on the bible so Christians don't come across as a single entity (or even 2 or 3).
Not saying it's fair but it may explain why there's no Christian outrage over similar incidents?
J
jollyjacktar
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If, the Ummah can get up in arms about cartoons, then the Ummah can get up in arms about the Islamofascist zealots who would defile their faith and murder untold thousands of their brothers and sisters. Cuts both ways. I am talking about the same worldwide Ummah that President el-Sisi was directing his comments towards and asking them to get on with showing ISIS et al that they are the problem, not the solution. What is going on today with Islam is a worldwide issue, not, just a Canadian Muslim community one and, that, is what I and others have been saying.
For the Canadian gang? As Colin has noted he has heard with his own ears, some Imams preaching hate in Mosques here in Canada. I know it is no longer fashion or legal to tar, feather and ride out of town on a rail anyone whom is bad for the townsfolk. So how about, the faithful in those communities were these pricks are operating, buy them a one way ticket to whence the originated and frog march their asses to the airport and out of the country. I can't believe they are not known for what they're up to in the Mosques amongst the members of said community.
As far as I am concerned, if the Crusades were in operation today I would hope Christians everywhere would go on the street to denounce it as it defiles their faith.
What will satisfy me? The above and when I see mobs that can be generated worldwide taking back Islam from the control of barbarians who now have it hostage. They are the only ones who can truly stop the madness.
For the Canadian gang? As Colin has noted he has heard with his own ears, some Imams preaching hate in Mosques here in Canada. I know it is no longer fashion or legal to tar, feather and ride out of town on a rail anyone whom is bad for the townsfolk. So how about, the faithful in those communities were these pricks are operating, buy them a one way ticket to whence the originated and frog march their asses to the airport and out of the country. I can't believe they are not known for what they're up to in the Mosques amongst the members of said community.
As far as I am concerned, if the Crusades were in operation today I would hope Christians everywhere would go on the street to denounce it as it defiles their faith.
What will satisfy me? The above and when I see mobs that can be generated worldwide taking back Islam from the control of barbarians who now have it hostage. They are the only ones who can truly stop the madness.
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If the moderates want to show that terrorism and violence against non-Muslims is truly unacceptable, they need to start by flagging that violent psychopaths/terrorists like the Copenhagen murderer are heretics and denying them Muslim burial rights....as opposed to a grand official funeral with 500 attendees.
And that can start with any Muslim association. It can start with a student association, a Shia Association, a Sunni Association, from Canada, from the UK, from Indonesia, from wherever. But that message needs to come out loudly and clearly from Muslim voices.
Until that happens I'm not buying "the religion of peace" narrative.
M.
And that can start with any Muslim association. It can start with a student association, a Shia Association, a Sunni Association, from Canada, from the UK, from Indonesia, from wherever. But that message needs to come out loudly and clearly from Muslim voices.
Until that happens I'm not buying "the religion of peace" narrative.
M.
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jollyjacktar
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Force said:
From the Oxford dictionary and my useage.
Tens of millions were up in arms about the cartoons. Now if they could only get up in arms about ISIS.
The source book for Christianity, the Bible, does not compel its adherents to go out and take the head off someone who holds an opposing view: Islam does. There is no government associated with Christianity. With Islam you cannot differentiate between the two. The Bible does not demand war against unbelievers nor does it place women in a subservient role. In fact many of the early church leaders were women. Christianity teaches peace in its holy books, Islam teaches war in its holy books. Christians who teach war or oppress others are radicals and are going against Biblical teachings. There are Christians who have murdered family members for marrying outside their faith. Those Christians are violating Biblical commands. There are Moslems who have murdered family members for marrying outside their faith. Those Moslems are following Koranic commands. A Moslem who teaches peace and acceptance is a radical and is going against Koranic teachings. Fortunately, there are a lot of Moslems who would like to see changes made but we as westerners have to realize that those brave souls are going against 1500 years of teaching. I could go on with this comparison but I think that is enough. Suffice it to say that a Moslem who speaks up against ISIS teaching is speaking out against people who are practicing what they preach. It is the moderates who are the real fanatics!
Colin Parkinson
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http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
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I'm sorry but this nonsense has to stop ... Islam has a "role" in some societies because, and only because, some political factions choose to give it a role, to use it, exploit it for political purposes. Five hundred year ago, when we, the European West, were locked in an earlier war with an Islam caliphate, "we" proudly referred to ourselves as Christendom. Despite the crosses on many, many flags, think the UK and some Scandinavian countries, I doubt any significant country today (sorry Vatican, I don't regard you as a "significant country" in political/economic terms) would say it is, in the 21st century, out there promoting Christian values. (Leave Israel and the defence of the Jews aside, please ... it's sui generis.)
Now, some countries do define themselves as Islamic: consider both Saudi Arabia and Iran. They do so for their own specific reasons ... reasons which, in both cases, I understand but find, to be charitable, silly, even childish. Most states that are predominantly or even overwhelmingly Muslim still offer at least token recognition of religious liberty ~ even if it is usually "more honor'd in the breach than the observance."
Islam is nothing more (nor less) than a system of beliefs ... there are as many styles and types of Muslim 'beliefs' and 'practices' as there are amongst the Buddhists, Christians and Hindus. There are just as many brave, noble, upright Muslims as there are Christians, and just as many Muslims cowards and charlatans as there are amongst the Hindus. Some terrorists, some barbarians, some charlatans are using Islam as a propaganda tool. Buddhists, Christians and so on are not above doing the same thing when they think it will work. Some (too many) Muslims come from societies with weak, even retarded* social and political cultures and they (and poorly educated young Canadians with weak socio-cultural 'values') are easy prey for well crafted propaganda that tells them they they are superior and/or entitled and that all they need to do is fight a bit to gain whatever it is (status? meaning?) their sad little lives lack now.
So, don't blame Islam ... in fact don't even think about Islam. Blame some leaders and promote (indeed, demand) action to get rid of them ... starting with, say, the Saudi Royal family, dozens of Iranian Ayatollahs and the leaders of e.g. Boko Haram, Hezbollah and the Irish National Liberation Army (because not all dangerous terrorists are Muslim).
_____
* As in delayed or not yet as advanced as others, not as a medical term.
Now, some countries do define themselves as Islamic: consider both Saudi Arabia and Iran. They do so for their own specific reasons ... reasons which, in both cases, I understand but find, to be charitable, silly, even childish. Most states that are predominantly or even overwhelmingly Muslim still offer at least token recognition of religious liberty ~ even if it is usually "more honor'd in the breach than the observance."
Islam is nothing more (nor less) than a system of beliefs ... there are as many styles and types of Muslim 'beliefs' and 'practices' as there are amongst the Buddhists, Christians and Hindus. There are just as many brave, noble, upright Muslims as there are Christians, and just as many Muslims cowards and charlatans as there are amongst the Hindus. Some terrorists, some barbarians, some charlatans are using Islam as a propaganda tool. Buddhists, Christians and so on are not above doing the same thing when they think it will work. Some (too many) Muslims come from societies with weak, even retarded* social and political cultures and they (and poorly educated young Canadians with weak socio-cultural 'values') are easy prey for well crafted propaganda that tells them they they are superior and/or entitled and that all they need to do is fight a bit to gain whatever it is (status? meaning?) their sad little lives lack now.
So, don't blame Islam ... in fact don't even think about Islam. Blame some leaders and promote (indeed, demand) action to get rid of them ... starting with, say, the Saudi Royal family, dozens of Iranian Ayatollahs and the leaders of e.g. Boko Haram, Hezbollah and the Irish National Liberation Army (because not all dangerous terrorists are Muslim).
_____
* As in delayed or not yet as advanced as others, not as a medical term.
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Crantor said:
I am no bible thumper expert, however; To me the Bible tells an epic story in two volumes. The old and the new testament. The stories in the old testament describe the essence of the human experience. It is not meant to be a detailed code for living your life, except for maybe the 10 commandments which the Jews follow as well. (No instructions in these telling you to go to war, chop off heads, or convert or slay everyone that does not follow your beliefs.)
The new testament focuses on life after Jesus came into the world with his message of forgiveness. (Definitely no detailed instructions to go out and slay your fellow man)
The Koran is a far different book than the Bible. Both are words written by man and not by God himself.
Jed said:
well here are a few instructions and guidelines
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)
Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)
And these are just a few things (plenty of murder, rape and genocide to go around in the bible) that have been interpretted over the centuries and followed as guidelines. So let's not portray that book as being morally superior. The Koran has many of the same message of peace and love and just as many messages about death and stonings as the Bible does. Both have been litteraly and figuratively interpretted by both religions and both have been used to commit and justify unspeakable acts. I would rather uphold our western democratic values on equality of women (something the bible and the koran do not have) and concepts of individual freedom amongst others rather than refer to any religious doctrinal document.
OldSolduer
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Was the Bible not written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus?
I've noticed that in more than one religion the main character has wandered in a desert for days on end and has a "vision"....then writes about it.
I've noticed that in more than one religion the main character has wandered in a desert for days on end and has a "vision"....then writes about it.
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