Islam and Western Society

[MJP]

Most people are still talking rubbish ...

When some white-trash, nominally Christian nutbar blew up an office building Texas I didn't tear my hair and run around apologising for being a white male of nominally Christian heritage ... I shook my head and went about my daily business. Equally when some white, male, nominally Christian nutbar killed a bunch of kids in Norway I didn't run out and demonstrate to "prove' that I am against such madness. No one expected me to do either.

Why, then, should my former colleague Prof Sabah Towaj "need" to apologize for something some darker skinned nutbar does in some dirty little corner of a country he left decades ago? He doesn't of course; I don't expect him to; if you expect him to do that then I expect to see you out demonstrating the next time some white kid attacks a black kid ... what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Mr. Campbell I am unshamelessly stealing this for reposting....Well said. 

 

[Jed]

So when Joseph Kony was out doing all sorts of despicable things in the name of God with his Lord's Resistance Army you were out in the streets? How about all those other Christian Militias in Africa?  (Assuming you are christian of course).  If you were, great, but most Christians in Canada with the exception of Facebook and Twitter didn't do very much to voice their displeasure either.  And I don't blame run of the mill Canadian christians for any of that. 

I'm with ER on this.  I get it.  You're angry at Islamic terrorists therefore taking it out and blaming Canadian Muslims is your only way of doing anything.  Really, where are the millions out protesting cartoons here?  i haven't seen it.  So I'm not sure what your point is.

And also from MCG " KKK out on the streets"

And I ask you two and ERC when was the last time we even heard anything significant, especially from Canada, about KKK activity or significant Christian religious nutbars doing anything near as heinous as beheadings, murder etc. I don't think there has been much in the past decade or two.

It is a question of scale of atrocities.

 

[Jed]

What concerns me most is that we in the Western World seems to be sitting back and watching this horror unfold and not doing anything about it.  The 'We are OK Jack, it's not in our backyard, no sweat'.

My gut tells me that we are all just ignoring this unpleasantness and hoping it will sort itself out somewhere out there in the Middle East and Northern Africa and we can all just go about our business at home.

A few years ago I was of this opinion myself. Within the last year my thinking has evolved and I feel we live in a much more globally connected world now. Because of the internet and rapid communication, events have effects felt immediately in our economies and in our social norms.

There is no strong leadership in the Western world currently and we seem to be sliding into a similar stupidity that overtook Europe before the Great War.

I also feel that as a nation we have become weak, fat and happy through the plenty we have enjoyed. As a nation we need to pick up our moral and ethical game. To do that it has to start from each individual and build from our smaller communities upwards.

Just my  :2c:

 

[Remius]

And also from MCG " KKK out on the streets"

And I ask you two and ERC when was the last time we even heard anything significant, especially from Canada, about KKK activity or significant Christian religious nutbars doing anything near as heinous as beheadings, murder etc. I don't think there has been much in the past decade or two.

It is a question of scale of atrocities.

I haven't heard of anyone being beheaded here yet by muslims or anyone else.  Murders happen all the time in canada for all sorts of reasons. There were three assassination attempts on abortion doctors who were shot, another was stabbed and a clinic was bombed in the last twenty years.  This type of attack is recognised generaly as Christian Terrorism.

But none of that is of any relevance.

The fallacy of your argument Jed is that you think Canadian Muslims are accountable for things happening on the other side of the globe that are beyond their control.  Law abiding muslims are not to blame as much as you and I are are not to blame for some idiot who shoots a doctore because he is a pro-life christian.  Let's say one million Canadian Muslims rallied here in canada for a protest.  We rarely see ANY protests of that kind here for anything.  We live in a law abiding country that many Muslims have moved to because of the BS happening over there.  Because they want to live in peace.  Yes we'll get bad apples.  we have them everywhere here but a few bad apples does not equate to a full tree of bad apples.

No one disagrees with you that Islamic fundamentalism and extremism needs to be stamped out.  But so does christian extremism, jewish extremism etc etc

assigning blame on law abiding Canadians is the wrong approach.

As ER said, "Rubbish"

 

[Remius]

What concerns me most is that we in the Western World seems to be sitting back and watching this horror unfold and not doing anything about it.  The 'We are OK Jack, it's not in our backyard, no sweat'.

My gut tells me that we are all just ignoring this unpleasantness and hoping it will sort itself out somewhere out there in the Middle East and Northern Africa and we can all just go about our business at home.

A few years ago I was of this opinion myself. Within the last year my thinking has evolved and I feel we live in a much more globally connected world now. Because of the internet and rapid communication, events have effects felt immediately in our economies and in our social norms.

There is no strong leadership in the Western world currently and we seem to be sliding into a similar stupidity that overtook Europe before the Great War.

I also feel that as a nation we have become weak, fat and happy through the plenty we have enjoyed. As a nation we need to pick up our moral and ethical game. To do that it has to start from each individual and build from our smaller communities upwards.

Just my  :2c:

now this I mostly agree with.  Unfortunately the world is somewhat more complicated.  We don't have the stomach to do what really needs to be done to stop these thugs.

 

[Jed]

I haven't heard of anyone being beheaded here yet by muslims or anyone else.  Murders happen all the time in canada for all sorts of reasons. There were three assassination attempts on abortion doctors who were shot, another was stabbed and a clinic was bombed in the last twenty years.  This type of attack is recognised generaly as Christian Terrorism.

But none of that is of any relevance.

The fallacy of your argument Jed is that you think Canadian Muslims are accountable for things happening on the other side of the globe that are beyond their control.  Law abiding muslims are not to blame as much as you and I are are not to blame for some idiot who shoots a doctore because he is a pro-life christian. Let's say one million Canadian Muslims rallied here in canada for a protest.  We rarely see ANY protests of that kind here for anything.  We live in a law abiding country that many Muslims have moved to because of the BS happening over there.  Because they want to live in peace.  Yes we'll get bad apples.  we have them everywhere here but a few bad apples does not equate to a full tree of bad apples.

No one disagrees with you that Islamic fundamentalism and extremism needs to be stamped out.  But so does christian extremism, jewish extremism etc etc

assigning blame on law abiding Canadians is the wrong approach.

As ER said, "Rubbish"

As I said before I mostly agree with you. This, I think, is where our understanding differs:  I am not assigning any more blame to the Canadian Muslim community then I am to myself and other fellow Canadian Citizens.

I am merely stating the obvious that Canadian Muslims are in a far better position to affect change on the greater Muslim Extremist issue than say, Christian Canadians. I know it is a arduous and thankless task to ask of good Canadian Muslims. It sucks to be them. Somebody has to be point on patrol.

 

[jollyjacktar]

That is happening in Canada.  You are just dismissing it because some crowed in a third world nation protests to emphatically on topics you disagree with, or because Canadian Muslims don't resort to the same soccer hooiganism riots of the issues that you do support.  Every posted example of moderate Islam's prevelance in Canada, you have dismissed while pointing to Yemen or Pakistan.

I hate to break it to you, but the "west" includes more than just Canada.  You bang your drum, and I'll bang mine.  The problem with radical Islam is one which affects the entire world as they've pointedly stated their aim is to be like Sherwin Williams and "cover the world".  We're fairly fortunate in that we don't have the problems at the moment which plague the UK or Europe with respect to this issue. 

No, I'm not dismissing anything being done by moderates here, in fact, I applaud what little is being done.  Also, we have a community here in NS which has for their own reasons kept silent.  I realize that I am the flavour of the month for you in this issue.  C'est la vie.  You can feel free to trumpet at me as much as you like.


I don't know what groups you self identify with but, for example, everytime the KKK does something stupid under the auspices of being white are you parading through the streets in anger?

I identify with such men as Richard Dawkins.  Satisfied?  If, Mr. Dawkins one day starts to foam at the mouth and call for the lopping off of heads, starting his own maniacal state where all non-RD fan club members are to be set on fire (or what have you) as I said, I will assuredly be at the forefront of any crowd (even if it is just friggin me) yelling for him to be stopped. 

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Most people are still talking rubbish ...

When some white-trash, nominally Christian nutbar blew up an office building Texas I didn't tear my hair and run around apologising for being a white male of nominally Christian heritage ... I shook my head and went about my daily business. Equally when some white, male, nominally Christian nutbar killed a bunch of kids in Norway I didn't run out and demonstrate to "prove' that I am against such madness. No one expected me to do either.

Why, then, should my former colleague Prof Sabah Towaj "need" to apologize for something some darker skinned nutbar does in some dirty little corner of a country he left decades ago? He doesn't of course; I don't expect him to; if you expect him to do that then I expect to see you out demonstrating the next time some white kid attacks a black kid ... what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

The difference in the scale of terrorist acts and deaths is completely incomparable.

Isolated incidents are just that.

These are not isolated incidents. 

And when Islamic governments use the same violence with the same religious justifications (such as the Saudi death penalty for the heretic), it is absolutely dishonest to compare Islam to any other major religion and claim that they're the same.


M.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I'm not comparing anything ... I'm saying it's unreasonable to blame Islam - the religion, or most Canadians who just happen to be Muslims - the individuals, for the actions of a lunatic fringe.

I'm happy to see us go after IS** and, especially, their paymasters. I'm not, in any way, offended by the sight of ten, hundreds, thousands of dead IS** militants; I'm not even overly bothered by the "collateral damage" to "innocent civilians."

So, go ahead, boys and girls in the CF and allied forces, kill away, in my name, but don't blame my neighbour, the shopkeeper, or my friend, the professor of engineering, just because they have their own lives to live and things to do besides protesting the actions of a lunatic fringe.

I didn't hold the white race or Christendom or the Pope in Rome to blame for the IRA ~ and I really, really hated those bastards ~ and I refuse to hold ordinary people of any race or creed responsible for folks who just happen to have darker skins or wear funny hats.

If you want to blame Islam, go ahead, but you're missing the target.


Edit: typo

 

[Jed]

I will throw another log on the fire.    What about Sharia Law?  Only Islam has this issue were they almost all want to put this into effect in our western nations. The strict adherence of Sharia law is completely incompatible with our Western Laws.

For example, the western world for the most part does not tolerate the old Mormon Laws that were not compatible. Mormons had to adapt. To a lesser extent the Jehovah's Witness had to adapt as well. Why should the western world bend over for Sharia Law to appease Muslims?

 

[Edward Campbell]

I will throw another log on the fire.    What about Sharia Law?  Only Islam has this issue were they almost all want to put this into effect in our western nations. The strict adherence of Sharia law is completely incompatible with our Western Laws.

For example, the western world for the most part does not tolerate the old Mormon Laws that were not compatible. Mormons had to adapt. To a lesser extent the Jehovah's Witness had to adapt as well. Why should the western world bend over for Sharia Law to appease Muslims?

That's a fair point.

Western countries should not "bend over for Sharia Law to appease Muslims;" Nor should it "bend over" for e.g. Rabbinical Law to "appease" Jews. When the provisions of a religious 'law' can be used, without violating any of the rights of our citizens, in e.g. arbitration or mediation then they should be allowed, but as an adjunct to, never a replacement for, the secular laws of the land.

I thought the Ontario Government, in 2004, acted very appropriately, in not allowing Sharia Law to be used for arbitration in Ontario and, simultaneously, removing that privilege from Christians and Jews, too. The civil law is good enough for arbitration and mediation in almost all cases ... where it is found to be lacking it can be amended. The same is not true for religious laws ... those who believe may (should?) hold them to be supreme, above the law of the land, and that is why they should not be allowed even a toehold in Canada, and where such a toehold exists, as Rabbinical Law does for divorce in some places, it should be cancelled.

 

[McG]

Much at stake for Muslims, Canada
The Winnipeg Sun
25 Feb 2015

All Islamist extremists are Muslims, but not all Muslims are Islamist extremists.

It's an obvious observation, perhaps embarrassingly so. So why make it? Because sometimes we need to take a breath and revisit some simple, basic truths as we are assailed by news of horrific acts carried out by terrorists such as member of ISIS and their cohorts -- things like the beheading of a group of Egyptian Coptic Christians, the killing cartoonists in Paris, the burning alive of a Jordanian military pilot, slaughtering people and enslaving girls in Africa, and the attack on our own Parliament buildings.

The shock of such atrocities makes it easy, perhaps even tempting, to paint many people with a too-wide brush. We are shaken, saddened and angered. That state of mind does not lead to the best decisions.

We believe these groups are in part using these horrific acts to terrify, subdue and scatter their opponents as they lay claim to territory, and perhaps also to draw Western powers into a fight that they hope will unite Muslims against a common enemy -- at the same time stampeding us into doing things that erode our own freedoms.

We can't stand by and allow the brutality of the first part of their strategy, but we have to be careful not to stumble into the second. Part of that is to remember who the enemy is, and it isn't Muslims.

Many in our Muslim community -- who themselves would likely be persecuted if they were in ISIS territory -- share the message of their faith to other Canadians.

"We do not condone what these Muslims are doing because we condemn it. Strongly. It's not Islam what they're doing. You feel enraged? We feel more enraged than that because they are using the name of our religion," Imam Ansar Raza recently said during a community forum.

The meeting was part of an outreach campaign by the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, one of dozens of branches of Islam. They were sharing their point of view -- based on the idea that the Qur'an allows violence only defensively.

They, of course, cannot speak for an entire faith and obviously not all Muslims, including all those in Canada, agree with them. We must be vigilant and challenge, strongly if needed, those who espouse and carry out violence, and do so without fear or favour -- but that should be true of members of any religion or creed. It's the act, not the group, that matters.

If we can take anything from the message of the Ahmadiyya group, it's to remember the Islamic world is complex, most of it stands against the extremists who dominate the news and they have as much if not more at stake in this conflict as the west.

 

[Jed]

All Islamist Extremists are Muslims, but not all Muslims are  Islamist Extremists.

However; a super majority of Muslims are Fence Sitters.

In times of great societal upheavals such as major wars and pestilence, fence sitting is an exceedingly difficult position to maintain.

 

[a_majoor]

An interesting observation in the article "What ISIS really wants" in the Atlantic is that the theology ISIS follows is very similar to Salafi theology (in that they both advocate for a very literal, fundamentalist interpretation of Islam), but the means which they interpret this is very different (Salafi's are very "inward" focused, while ISIS has settled upon recreating the Caliphate). So from an outward, superficial glance, a Salafist and a member of ISIS would seem to be very similar in outlook (or even external appearance). OTOH, many of the ultimate "goals" do seem to converge, which leads to the question of where the line can be drawn?

Certainly shutting down radical Imans and their funding from foreign nations would be a good start, but as is the case with the actions of Vladimir Putin and his cabal, understanding their world view is critical to understanding what they think and why they believe and behave the way they do. If two radically different approachess to the practice of Islam are hard to pick apart, how will *we* be able to react to even more arcane interpetations? Are Druze or Salafi's potentially dangerous? Can you or anyone answer that?

And of course the danger of asking for an Islamic reformation (as much as we may wish for such a thing) is that ISIS might actually represent the end result...

 

[jollyjacktar]

And of course the danger of asking for an Islamic reformation (as much as we may wish for such a thing) is that ISIS might actually represent the end result...

Alas, there's not much of a reform with those barbarians unless it is to prove that "the more things change the more they stay the same".

 

[Colin Parkinson]

We can help the "Moderate Modern Muslims" here by doing the following

1. Stating Publicly that Sharia law is incompatibility with our society and people feeling the need to have it, should move to countries were it's already in place. Be prepared to use the "notwithstanding clause" in any challenge of that position.

2. Bar foreign funding of new Mosques, they will still find ways around it, but your making it harder

3. face coverings are not explicit in the Islam, therefore bar them in government offices. People who don't like it can see number 1

4. Advise Iman's they can and will be charged with hate crimes for preaching hatred against Jews, Christians and Pagans

5. Targeted investigations into polygamy and welfare abuse and prosecute them

6. Have government websites with pages in Arabic and other Middle Eastern languages outlining what number 1. and require Mosque websites to provide that link

7. Hire people with language skills to visit the mosques on a regular basis to listen to the sermons

8. Monitor directly what is being taught in Islamic schools and require the kids to attend classes on Canadian society and interactions with Islam

9. tax breaks and funding for organizations that challenge hard line Islamists 

The above won't solve all your problems but it will help
   

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Colin:

Reference your point number four, is it your view that anyone not Jewish, Christian or Muslim is a Pagan?

Why not merely refer to preaching hatred against anyone they consider apostate?

Just a suggestion.

Oh! And on your fist point, the Charter does not enter into play with the "notwithstanding clause". That is for an Act o Parliament (or a Provincial Law), not for public statements by the Government so, making the statement might give rise to a "freedom of speech vs Freedom of religion case, but I am pretty sure that the Freedom of speech would win on this one, as saying something like that does not prevent muslims from practising their religion, even if they don't like what is being said.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I still think Islam is a crime against humanity.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

What concerns me most is that we in the Western World seems to be sitting back and watching this horror unfold and not doing anything about it.  The 'We are OK Jack, it's not in our backyard, no sweat'.

My gut tells me that we are all just ignoring this unpleasantness and hoping it will sort itself out somewhere out there in the Middle East and Northern Africa and we can all just go about our business at home.

Shouldn't the lead on this come from the region itself?  It seems to me that if the west is the lead and then leaves after announcing some form of success, the same kind of situation will again present itself and around the circle we go yet again.  Otherwise, defeating the enemy and then leaving a long term occupatiom/stabilization force for an unknown amount of time would be the best COA.  Seems to me the US tried this in Iraq without the desired outcome.  I think its better to teach a man to fish than to give him a basket of fish and hope he figures it out after you leave.

 

[CougarKing]

A voice against Islamic extremism is silenced:

Canadian Press

Attackers in Bangladesh hack to death American blogger and voice against religious extremism
The Canadian Press

By Julhas Alam, The Associated Press

DHAKA, Bangladesh - A prominent Bangladeshi-American blogger known for speaking out against religious extremism was hacked to death as he walked through Bangladesh's capital with his wife, police said Friday.

The attack Thursday night on Avijit Roy, a Bangladesh-born U.S. citizen, occurred on a crowded sidewalk as he and his wife, Rafida Ahmed, were returning from a book fair at Dhaka University. Ahmed, who is also a blogger, was seriously injured. It was the latest in a series of attacks on secular writers in Bangladesh in recent years.

A previously unknown militant group, Ansar Bangla 7, claimed responsibility for the attack, Assistant Police Commissioner S.M. Shibly Noman told the Prothom Alo newspaper.

(...SNIPPED)