Islam and Western Society

[cupper]

The conclusion I draw from reading the article is that ISIS is essentially a religious based Ponzi scheme that will eventually, if left to its own devices will eventually collapse upon itself because it cannot sustain the fundamental needs that drive it to exist and grow. The leadership will eventually be caught up in it's own internal disputes as to whether the Caliph is maintaining the teachings of the Prophet and the Koran, and not expanding the Caliphate through unending Jihad.

Unfortunately the rest of the world cannot wait for this thing to fall apart and implode upon itself.

 

[Remius]

Unfortunately the rest of the world cannot wait for this thing to fall apart and implode upon itself.

That's what he gets at, at the end.

The whole point is that we have to stop traeting this movement as just a bunch of terrorists.  Various leaders are treading lightly with the whole religious thing and he is stating that it needs to be confronted for what it is.

 

[cupper]

That's what he gets at, at the end.

The whole point is that we have to stop traeting this movement as just a bunch of terrorists.  Various leaders are treading lightly with the whole religious thing and he is stating that it needs to be confronted for what it is.

No, I got that.

 

[McG]

It seems as if at the drop of a hat, or cartoon that offends, streets are mobbed by baying crowds demanding heads be chopped off.  Well, you want our respect and assistance, then lets see those crowds baying in the streets, worldwide, against ISIS, Boko Haram et al. 

The crowds that you want to see are there to be seen:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/hundreds-of-calgary-muslims-protest-isis-violence-in-iraq-1.2683589

... what concrete action the moderate Muslim world community is doing to stop [ISIS].

Would that not be Egypt, UAE, Jordan, etc going to war with ISIS?

... or maybe Canadian Mulim leaders calling for the investigations to rout-out domestic terrorist aggitators/supporters/recruiters, publicly denouncing such behaviours, less publicly working to "de-radicalize" youth, and warning police of radicalized members of the muslim community?  It has all been done.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgary-imam-calls-for-inquiry-into-recruitment-of-muslim-radicals
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/young-muslim-calls-on-police-nenshi-to-do-more-about-extremists-1.2685124
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/algonquin-college-muslim-students-association-denounce-extremism-1.2945534
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/persecution/toronto-mosque-offers-detox-for-extremists.html
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2013/04/24/muslim_community_deserves_credit_for_thwarting_toronto_terror_plot_editorial.html

 

[Jed]

The crowds that you want to see are there to be seen:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/hundreds-of-calgary-muslims-protest-isis-violence-in-iraq-1.2683589
Would that not be Egypt, UAE, Jordan, etc going to war with ISIS?

... or maybe Canadian Mulim leaders calling for the investigations to rout-out domestic terrorist aggitators/supporters/recruiters, publicly denouncing such behaviours, less publicly working to "de-radicalize" youth, and warning police of radicalized members of the muslim community?  It has all been done.

http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-news/calgary-imam-calls-for-inquiry-into-recruitment-of-muslim-radicals
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/young-muslim-calls-on-police-nenshi-to-do-more-about-extremists-1.2685124
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/algonquin-college-muslim-students-association-denounce-extremism-1.2945534
http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/persecution/toronto-mosque-offers-detox-for-extremists.html
http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editorials/2013/04/24/muslim_community_deserves_credit_for_thwarting_toronto_terror_plot_editorial.html

These are all good moderate muslim actions standing up and being heard, MCG; A big however; they are very late coming and still a very small percentage of events and demonstrations holding a different view. It will take years of major actions to turn public opinion in the west in the opposite direction.

 

[jollyjacktar]

The crowds that you want to see are there to be seen:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/hundreds-of-calgary-muslims-protest-isis-violence-in-iraq-1.2683589

I'm thinking more of the throngs you see in Pakistan, Yemen, etc etc etc. that are out in the streets baying at the cameras and number in the tens of thousands.  I'm happy that some here in Canada are stepping forwards but the great Muslim diaspora elsewhere is what interests me.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Western progressives deal with fundamentalist Christians by being appalled by religion;then they deny Islamism is religion-based.  Go figure:
https://www.google.ca/search?q=obama+islamism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=bOPjVKKSE5GsyASB2IGQAg

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Brad Sallows]

If Newton had never "discovered" gravity, someone else would have by now.  If Newton and Leibniz had not invented calculus, someone else would have by now.

The knowledge we traditionally regard as "pre-Columbian" and originating in the Eurasian land mass bounced back and forth from the western shore of the Pacific to the eastern shore of the Atlantic.

All this dick-waving doesn't obscure the fact that a staggering amount of our most valuable social institutions and technology come from a pretty narrow set of sources.

That most civilizations went through warlike phases and practiced slavery is unexceptional.  What is exceptional are the ones that reasoned their way out of inhumane practices and try to avoid repeating those injustices.

In the internet era, "we need time to evolve" is a weak excuse for barbaric behaviour.  The examples have been set.  The knowledge is freely available.  The only reason to be barbaric is because you want to be.

 

[tomahawk6]

ISIS is well on their way to establishing a caliphate from Syria to Libya and maybe Tunisia.Algeria and Morocco will be harder nuts to crack.Brutality has won many a conquest through history.Savage a city and the next city will fold without a fight.Then the brutality gets worse because ISIS lacks enough thugs to control all of their territory.Even the Nazis ruled through fear and oppression,until dying for a cause was better than dying for nothing.

 

[Kat Stevens]

Hold the phone here, whoever split this off.  I resent the hell out of having my comments on this thread being considered part of an "anti Muslim narrative".  I am NOT, and never have been anti Muslim, anti Christian, anti Jew, anti tank, or anything other than anti asshole.  Whoever arbitrarily decided that I am, can take a long hard suck on my lily white, not anti Muslim, English arse.

Interesting side note;  I deliberately typed all religion names in lower case.  The only one auto correct didn't pick up for capitalization was "christian", strange, no?

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Oh come now- you have too been "anti-tank" at some point in your life. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

Oh come now- you have too been "anti-tank" at some point in your life. 

Only when assholes are in them  ;D

 

[Jarnhamar]

As a muslim myself

Do you practice Islam and believe non believers should be converted or killed?



I find it strange when someone identifies as a muslim, jew, christian, buddist etc.. except they pick and choose which religious rules or laws they follow and which they don't.  Is a watered down christian or muslim really following the teachings of the quran or bible? 

It reminds me of a friend of mine who is a vegetarian; except she eats pepperoni on pizza, hot dogs from A&W and sometimes bacon on bagels when shes too lazy to pick it off.

 

[Loachman]

Hot dogs are meat?

Every person interprets religious texts and concepts, as well as everything else, at least slightly differently.

 

[Kilo_302]

This is a joke. The same people on here who don't seem to have a problem with us being so close with the Saudis also seem to be overly concerned with the "threat" ISIS poses to Canada. We can't have it both ways. We're cleaning up a Saudi mess in Iraq (and potentially Syria), until we address these issues with Saudi Arabia directly this whole thing is a side show. The roots of ISIS lie in Saudi funding for extremist groups, and we've never batted an eye at this. Following the British model, the US and West in modern times have always preferred radical Islam to secular nationalism in the Middle East, we're just reaping what we've sowed here.

IF we're serious about combatting ISIS and Islamic extremism we'd better push the Saudis, hard. If the royal family ever collapses, you can bet the extremists that fill the vacuum will remember it was Canadian LAVs suppressing resistance. It'll be pretty rich of us at that point to try and support moderate groups, if there are any left. THEN we'll have an actual threat to Canada and it will be of our own making.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Actually, no. I am under no illusions as to the extent that the House of Saud is the root of the problem.

I am also realistic, given the money and power they have amassed, about how much of the western world they gave in their pocket.

I also know that ISIS is an existential threat to them. I am all for selling as many LAVs into the region as possible. They are no threat to Canada over there and virtually any permutation of who they get used against in that region is a long term win for us. What would have us do? Invade Saudi Arabia and depose the house of Saud? I'm sure that would play well...

Kilo, I think your problem is that you are are an idealist. You would like a perfect solution to a perfect problem. I, on the other hand accept that most problems are messy and intractable. Having all the usual suspects fighting amongst themselves, works for me presently.

 

[Kilo_302]

I don't buy that realist argument though, as in the long run that approach hurts Canada too. Again, by support the current Saudi regime we are virtually guaranteeing that whatever replaces them will be hostile to us. We've seen what the results of a realist approach gets us. Call it blowback, call it whatever you want but the current realist policies the West pursues don't benefit anyone but a select few in the long run. Who is going to pay the price for us selling LAVs to the Saudis? The Canadian government? General Dynamics? It'll be the Saudi populace and then Canadian civilians killed in attacks motivated by our support for the regime. And to prevent these attacks, we'll sacrifce democracy at home and give the government carte blanche to spy on whoever it pleases. History has shown us where these policies will take us, ISIS (and Islamic extremists in general) aren't stupid. They know how to provoke overreactions and our government is very eager to give them what they want.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Hot dogs are meat?

Well closer to meat than plants
Like onion rings are vegetable donuts.

Every person interprets religious texts and concepts, as well as everything else, at least slightly differently.

Exactly.  When I hear someone say I'm a Muslim (or whatever) I think of how ambiguous the term is.  When I hear someone offended because of something religion-based it goes in one ear and out the other because people basically pick and choose what rules they follow, and what offends them.

 

[a_majoor]

There already is an "anti-muslim" narrative going in Europe, with various extremist parties pumping up the volume and getting an ever increasing share of the vote by disgruntled Europeans.

Things like the Charlie Hedbo massacre and the shootings in Denmark can only serve to intensify the narrative, and of course daily doses of barbaric practices broadcast on TV from the Middle East only serve to reinforce fear and hatred people are feeling.

As has been said upthread, the only true way to defuse the "anti-muslim" narrative and the potential massive backlash against Islamic people settled in Europe and North America is for the Islamic peoples themselves to eject the violent and radical jihadists and their enablers. Sadly, I have the feeling we are getting close to a tipping point where if the job isn't done internally, it will "get done" in ways we probably will not like. Things like internment camps are part of our own history, so no one should sit back and say "oh, things won't get so bad over here...."

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I don't buy that realist argument though, as in the long run that approach hurts Canada too. Again, by support the current Saudi regime we are virtually guaranteeing that whatever replaces them will be hostile to us. We've seen what the results of a realist approach gets us. Call it blowback, call it whatever you want but the current realist policies the West pursues don't benefit anyone but a select few in the long run. Who is going to pay the price for us selling LAVs to the Saudis? The Canadian government? General Dynamics? It'll be the Saudi populace and then Canadian civilians killed in attacks motivated by our support for the regime. And to prevent these attacks, we'll sacrifce democracy at home and give the government carte blanche to spy on whoever it pleases. History has shown us where these policies will take us, ISIS (and Islamic extremists in general) aren't stupid. They know how to provoke overreactions and our government is very eager to give them what they want.

Newsflash, Kilo. They already hate us - the Saudis included. Nothing we do will change that.