Iran Super Thread- Merged

[Fusaki]

What you and everyone else who beat the war drums are doing is suggesting punishment before the crime, which is wrong.

It's not about crime and punishment of things past.  It's about security in the future.

Iran is at war with us and our allies by proxy.  Why on earth would let them develop the potential for nuclear weapons?

 

[Old Sweat]

Here is a story dated 19 June 2009 which includes a statement by the head of the IAEA in which he couples capability and intention. One suspects he is well aware of his influential position and is not prone to idle speculation. Iran restated in this story that its nuclear programme is only for peaceful purposes. However, it still remains that the capability to develop weapons remains and all it would take is an order to redirect the program. And that is the rub.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8104388.stm

 

[TCBF]

It's not about crime and punishment of things past.  It's about security in the future.

Iran is at war with us and our allies by proxy.  Why on earth would let them develop the potential for nuclear weapons?

- Iran does NOT want the Taliban to succede in Afg.  Or are you talking about some other place?

 

[tango22a]

Xiang:

You might note that the IAEA report is dated 2005. Have any other investigations been made since then? Also you can quote anything you want but you must admit that most of your quotes are open to interpretation,....you see it ONE WAY but others,including myself see it ANOTHER. Who are the hidden hands behind this report? Should this four year old report be taken at face value as being 100% truthful and accurate (un-biased would help too)...you tell me! Being a card carrying cynic makes me take most of what is reported in the media with several large grains of salt.


tango22a

 

[Xiang]

Old Sweat, I understand what you are saying, but so far there is no proof of Iran developing a nuclear weapon.

Ask yourself this though, when threatened on multiple fronts, wouldn't you like the option of defending yourself? 

There is no doubt that Iran would like a deterrent, especially when threatened by nations it cannot defend itself against, but as of today, regardless of what mainstream media says, experts have concluded that Iran is NOT developing these weapons.

Also, ask yourself this.  Considering the fact that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was clearly misquoted, and his intentions were not to "wipe Israel off the map", then what do you think any possible future weapons ambition would be fuel by?

Obviously it wouldn't be for direct use as a preemptive strike on Israel, since that was never his intention. 

 

[Xiang]

You might note that the IAEA report is dated 2005

Not to mention most of my other articles (including the CIA assessment that Iran is not developing nuclear weapons, and does not have an active nuclear program) are more recent.

As of now, I have yet to see an older, or even current report of any of the claims made by those beating the drums of war.

Anyway, it's obvious we see things differently.  My reason is because I don't want to get behind another pointless war.  I supported the war in Iraq, only to watch the country go into chaos after the invasion, tens of thousands of people die, and all to find out there were no WMD.

I don't want to back another war trumped up on rhetoric again.  They may just be brown people on the other side of the world, but they have (or had) lives too.

 

[tango22a]

Xiang:

What tack shop supplies your blinders? Hope you get a huge discount! You can explain away all you want, but please show a little respect for other posters as having a few brain cells still operational.

Let's face it,,,You and I will never agree so I think that I will decamp this thread and leave the field to you.

GIGO

tango22a

 

[Xiang]

Classy reply...

 

[OldSolduer]

I've been watching the news regarding the Iranian "election" and in my opinion the whole thing will come crashing down around the mullahs' and their president's ears. As we've seen, there are riots in the streets, the regime is cracking down on dissidents and the people still find a way to get their message out.

 

[GAP]

I've been watching the news regarding the Iranian "election" and in my opinion the whole thing will come crashing down around the mullahs' and their president's ears. As we've seen, there are riots in the streets, the regime is cracking down on dissidents and the people still find a way to get their message out.

Isn't it amazing that dictators only thrive when the people are kept ignorant and lack forms of communication with the outside world.....

 

[OldSolduer]

Isn't it amazing that dictators only thrive when the people are kept ignorant and lack forms of communication with the outside world.....

You mean like China? Oh but I am being blasphemous aren't I? Aren't they our best friends?

 

[CougarKing]

You mean like China? Oh but I am being blasphemous aren't I? Aren't they our best friends?

People in China are not as ignorant as you assume. If you've ever actually accessed the internet within China, people are pretty much free to surf the internet, except if they come across a website which the PRC government sees as subversive or with political content that they may see as a threat to their authority, such as the Falun Gong website, in which case a firewall/the censor goes up. The screen goes green for a few moments and then you get an error message, IIRC.

And Yes, there have been media blackouts recently like the one that occurred during the 20th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre, but during regular weeks, for the sake of keeping business going, people still have access to various forms of media and foreign websites, except those with political content which may be censored.

But other than that, the internet is a necessary medium for international commerce and transactions.

 

[CougarKing]

And the Iranian government led by Khamenei and Ahmedinejad continues to dig a bigger hole for itself as it lives in denial.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090623/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election

By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer Karin Laub, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 19 mins ago
CAIRO – Iran expelled two British diplomats Tuesday after bitterly accusing Britain of meddling and spying. The government also dealt a fresh blow to the opposition by making clear it will not hold a new vote despite charges of fraud.

State TV said hard-line students protested outside the British Embassy in Tehran, where they burned U.S., British and Israeli flags, pelted the building with tomatoes and chanted: "Down with Britain!" and "Down with USA!" Witnesses said about 100 people took part.

Iran's Foreign Ministry said it expelled the two Britons for "unconventional behavior," state television reported, and Britain announced it was sending two Iranian diplomats home in retaliation.

Tensions between Iran and Britain, which has urged the Islamic regime to respect human rights, have soared in recent days.

During Friday prayers at Tehran University, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei lashed out against Western countries he said were displaying their "enmity" against the Islamic state, "and the most evil of them is the British government." And Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki has accused Britain of sending spies to manipulate the June 12 election.

Iran's expulsions came a day after Britain sent home 12 dependents of diplomatic staff because the unrest had disrupted their lives.

Opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi claims he was the true winner of the June 12 election, but the electoral commission declared President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won by a landslide.

Mousavi has been out of sight in recent days and there were no reports of violent clashes Tuesday, possibly a measure of the effectiveness of the crackdown.

However, protesters came up with new techniques, such as turning on the lights in their cars at certain hours of the day and honking their horns or holding up posters.

"People are calmly protesting, more symbolically than with their voices," a Tehran resident said in a telephone interview, speaking on condition of anonymity for fear of government retribution.

In recent days, members of the elite Revolutionary Guard, the Basij militia and other security forces in riot gear have been heavily deployed across Tehran, preventing any gatherings and ordering people to keep moving. A protest of some 200 people Monday was quickly broken up with tear gas and shots in the air, while helicopters hovered overhead.

A short message posted on Mousavi's Web site asserted that "all the reports of violations in the elections will be published soon."

Another opposition figure, reformist presidential candidate Mahdi Karroubi, called for a day of mourning for the at least 17 people killed in protests since the election.

Across the world, governments and diplomats were increasingly lining up on opposite sides in the Iranian showdown, the strongest challenge to the rule of Islamic clerics in 30 years.

In a boost for the embattled regime, Russia said Tuesday that it respects the declared election result. But France summoned Iran's ambassador to express concern about what it called "brutal repression" of protesters in Tehran.

The U.S. and many European countries have refrained from challenging the election outcome directly, but have issued increasingly stern warnings against continuing violence meted out to demonstrators. U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon has demanded an immediate end to "arrests, threats and use of force."

In Washington, President Barack Obama said Tuesday the U.S. and the rest of the world was "appalled and outraged" by Iran's violent efforts to crush dissent.

"I have made it clear that the United States respects the sovereignty of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and is not interfering in Iran's affairs," Obama said. "But we must also bear witness to the courage and dignity of the Iranian people, and to a remarkable opening within Iranian society. And we deplore violence against innocent civilians anywhere that it takes place."

Iran's official news agency, IRNA, reported that the Iranian Foreign Ministry rejected Ban's remarks and accused the U.N. chief of meddling.

State television said Khamenei agreed to extend by five days a deadline for making election complaints. But overall, the Iranian regime appeared determined to crush the post-election protesters, rather than compromise.

Mousavi has charged massive vote fraud and insisted he is the true winner. However, Iran's top electoral body, Guardian Council, found "no major fraud or breach in the election," a spokesman, Abbas Ali Kadkhodaei, was quoted by Press TV as saying Tuesday. "Therefore, there is no possibility of an annulment taking place."

The 12-member council has the authority to annul or validate the election. On Monday, it acknowledged in a rare step that it found voting irregularities in 50 of 170 districts, including vote counts that exceeded the number of eligible voters. Still, it said the discrepancies, involving some 3 million votes, were not widespread enough to affect the outcome.

Iran has 46.2 million eligible voters, one-third of them under 30. The final tally was 62.6 percent of the vote for Ahmadinejad and 33.75 percent for Mousavi, a landslide victory in a race that was perceived to be much closer. The huge margin went against the expectation that the record 85 percent turnout would boost Mousavi.

In another sign of the regime's crackdown, Ebrahim Raisi, a top judicial official, confirmed Tuesday that a special court has been set up to deal with detained protesters.

"Elements of riots must be dealt with to set an example. The judiciary will do that," he was quoted as saying by the state-run radio, which gave no further details. The judiciary is controlled by Iran's ruling clerics.

Ahmadinejad, meanwhile, won crucial backing from Russia on Tuesday, with the Foreign Ministry in Moscow saying it respects the declared election result. In a statement on its Web site, the ministry said that disputes about the vote "should be settled in strict compliance with Iran's Constitution and law" and are "exclusively an internal matter."

Russia, a permanent member of the U.N. Security Council, has longtime political and economic ties with Iran where it is helping build a nuclear power plan at Bushehr. In his only trip abroad since the vote, Ahmadinejad traveled to Russia last week for a conference where he was seen prominently shaking hands with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev.

Many Western democracies, including the U.S., have criticized Iran's campaign to crush dissent.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has called on Iran to recount the votes, but stopped short of alleging electoral fraud. French President Nicolas Sarkozy has been outspoken in his criticism of Iran's response to the demonstrations, but said doors must remain open to continue talks on the country's nuclear program.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, on a visit to Rome, praised the courage of Iranian protesters "in facing bullets in the streets."

Two prominent Iranian opposition figures took their case to Europe on Tuesday.

Iranian Nobel Peace laureate Shirin Ebadi asked EU officials in Brussels not to negotiate or hold meetings with Iranian leaders until the crackdown stops.

In Rome, Iranian filmmaker Mohsen Makhmalbaf held a news conference, saying he had been asked by Mousavi's aides to spread the word on what is happening in Iran. Makhmalbaf said that even if Ahmadinejad manages to govern for the next four years, "he will not have one day of quietness." He said protesters would resort to general strikes and what he called civil resistance.

Iranian leaders have accused the West of meddling in its affairs. Press TV said Tuesday that despite such complaints, the government refused to grant a permit for a protest by university students outside the British embassy in Tehran.

Opposition protests have become smaller, after a huge opposition rally a week ago, though demonstrators have been more willing to confront Iranian troops.

On Monday, Tehran riot police fired tear gas and live bullets to break up about 200 protesters paying tribute to those killed in the protests, including a young women, Neda Agha Soltan, whose apparent shooting death was captured on video and circulated worldwide. Witnesses said helicopters hovered overhead.

Caspian Makan, a 37-year-old photojournalist in Tehran who identified himself as Soltan's boyfriend, said she had not been deterred by the risk of joining protests.

"She only ever said that she wanted one thing, she wanted democracy and freedom for the people of Iran," he told an Associated Press reporter during a telephone call from Tehran.

Severe restrictions on reporters have made it almost impossible to independently verify reports on demonstrations, clashes and casualties. Iran has ordered reporters for international news agencies to stay in their offices, barring them from reporting on the streets.

A number of journalists have been detained since the protests began, though there have been conflicting accounts. The Paris-based Reporters Without Borders put the figure of reporters detained at 34.

The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists said 13 were still in custody, including Newsweek correspondent Maziar Bahari.

State-run TV on Tuesday confirmed the arrest of Iason Athanasiadis, a Greek national reporting for the Washington Times.

The Iranian government must release all journalists and halt "unreasonable and arbitrary measures that are restricting the flow of information," the committee said. "Detaining journalists for reporting news and commentary indicates the government has something to hide."

___

Associated Press Writer William J. Kole in Cairo contributed to this report.

 

[Fusaki]

- Iran does NOT want the Taliban to succede in Afg.  Or are you talking about some other place?

I'm referring to allegations that the Iranian government has been supplying EFPs to the Taliban in Aghanistan and the Quds Force guys that have been captured in Iraq.

Gates also warned of Iranian interference in Afghanistan, pointing to a slightly increased flow of weapons including components of lethal munitions known as "explosively formed projectiles." He said Iran wants to "have it both ways," seeking economic and diplomatic benefits of relations with Kabul while still attempting to impose "the highest possible costs" on U.S. and coalition troops.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/27/AR2009012700472.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/2958093/Taliban-claim-weapons-supplied-by-Iran.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jun/22/military.afghanistan

 

[Fusaki]

Old Sweat, I understand what you are saying, but so far there is no proof of Iran developing a nuclear weapon.

Thats not the point.

The point is that they could develop nuclear weapons. The stakes are too high to afford the Iranians any chance of acquiring them.

Ask yourself this though, when threatened on multiple fronts, wouldn't you like the option of defending yourself? 

Of course I would and I understand how "unfair" it is for NATO to have nukes and Iran not to.

What you need to understand though, is that this is NOT a game. It's not about each nation having equal capabilities so that they can square off fairly on the field of battle.  Its about making sure that if and when you go to war, you win the fight at smallest possible cost in lives and resources.  Its about doing everything you can to stack the deck in your favour.  In this case, it means ensuring that Iran - a country that is actively supporting insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan - does not acquire technology that could potentially be used in nuclear weapons.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The Iranian supreme leadership has blundered, I think.

My guesstimate of the situation is that the Iranian people, like the Chinese, are well aware of what kind of government they have – a theocratic dictatorship – and they, broadly, accept it, including all its evident flaws. They appear to favour a theocracy, as do many Muslims in the Arab/Persian/North African region. They appear to like the idea of Ali Hoseyni Khāmene as their supreme leader and to also favour Ahmadinejad's policies, including the acquisition of nuclear power and weapons and the eradication of Israel.

It appears to me that Khāmene has damaged an otherwise sterling reputation by lowering himself into the partisan political fray. In a sense he has made himself more human, less divinely anointed.

I will persist with my analogy of modern Arab/Persian society and politics to that of Tudor/Stuart England were the divine right of rulers was “more honour’d in the breach than the observance.” And everything unravelled there, very quickly, in 1648, when the supreme leader lost his status.

 

[Xiang]

Thats not the point.

The point is that they could develop nuclear weapons. The stakes are too high to afford the Iranians any chance of acquiring them

And what if Iran DOES develop a nuclear weapon?  It has already been proven that the "wipe Israel off the map" comment was completely false.  It seems the drums of war are being trumped by that very (although erroneous) statement.

How many more people have to die based on media sensationalism and rhetoric?

The Iranian government can be radical at times, but that is something for the people of Iran to deal with.  As I mentioned in the past, if the US starts dropping bombs on Iran, they will turn a moderate, pro Western population into an anti-Western population.

Can the US really afford to have more enemies right now?

What you need to understand though, is that this is NOT a game. It's not about each nation having equal capabilities so that they can square off fairly on the field of battle. 

Why does the US have to "square off" against Iran anyway?  Iran isn't the aggressor here.  It isn't talking about first strikes on other countries.  It is however, being threatened from all sides.

Hasn't the US done enough to Iran already?  Their support for Iraq during the Iran/Iraq war had the Iranians fighting for their very existence... and ended at a million people lost.

Trust me, I understand what you're saying, but after the Iraqi fiasco I am not supporting ANOTHER war... especially not one where all I see on CNN and Fox is some numb skulled pundit flapping his trap about "wiping Israel off the map", which is a clear misquote.

But then again, you won't be able to coax the US population into a war based on the truth now will you?

I'm still waiting to see that smoking gun....

 

[tango22a]

DELETED AS NOT BEING WORTH THE EFFORT

 

[daftandbarmy]

Meanwhile, back in Iran....

Black-clad crowds and burning bridges
IASON ATHANASIADIS
WEDNESDAY, 17TH JUNE 2009

The past week of rioting in Tehran has left many strong images in my mind, but chief among them is the raw passion of thousands of angry Iranians the morning after the disputed presidential elections.
Tehran
The past week of rioting in Tehran has left many strong images in my mind, but chief among them is the raw passion of thousands of angry Iranians the morning after the disputed presidential elections. Standing in public squares, or on the balconies and roofs overhanging them, they shouted the name of Mir Hossein Mousavi in a bristling staccato. Another image is of a burning pedestrian bridge arcing over a wilderness of highway and rocky wasteland. Hundreds of Mousavi supporters and riot police clashed on the bridge at midnight after the election result. Soaring luxury apartment blocks flanked the scene. There was the sound of men screaming, the crump of stone on plastic shields and the rumbling exhaust of several hundred gridlocked cars whose transfixed inhabitants watched the scene above them with horrified fascination. Or what about the black-clad crowd, marching up Tehran’s main boulevard in funereal silence under a canopy of green summer foliage? As the police helicopters whirred overhead, a sudden cheer rose up from the crowd to greet them.
But the image that keeps coming back to me is not one from last week, but from four years ago. In 2005, thousands of people shrugged off the theocracy’s restrictions and danced in the streets when Iran qualified for the World Cup. It was only the third time in the Islamic Republic’s 30-year history that crowds were allowed to gather in joy rather than mourning or protest. As I walked, amazed, through delirious crowds, a reveller waved his hand over the multitude and advised me to enjoy the sight. It wouldn’t last beyond dawn, he assured me.
True enough, despite a flurry of text messages advertising imaginary rallying points for another ‘freedom drive’, the next evening was business as usual in Tehran. Police cars stationed at intersections around the capital quickly banished any hopes of a repeat carnival. It was as if that heady night of football-fuelled insubordination had never captivated the Iranian imagination.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/3703038/blackclad-crowds-and-burning-bridges.thtml

 

[CougarKing]

And the clashes re-ignite, this time close to the Iranian Parliament!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090624/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_iran_election

Witnesses report clashes around Iran's parliament
By MICHAEL WEISSENSTEIN, Associated Press Writer Michael Weissenstein, Associated Press Writer
20 mins ago

CAIRO – Protesters and riot police clashed in the streets around Iran's parliament Wednesday as hundreds of people converged on a Tehran square in defiance of government orders to halt demonstrations demanding a new presidential election, witnesses said.

Police beat the protesters gathered on Baharestan Square with batons and fired tear gas canisters and rounds of ammunition into the air, the witnesses told The Associated Press. They said some demonstrators fought back while others fled to another Tehran plaza, Sepah Square, about a mile (2 kilometers) to the north.

A helicopter could be seen hovering over central Tehran, where a witness told the AP that the area was swarming with hundreds of riot police who were trying to prevent people from gathering even briefly. Thousands more security officers filled the surrounding streets, said the witness, who declined to give his name for fear of government reprisals.

Amateur video posted Wednesday on YouTube showed young men and women throwing rocks and pushing barricades, one blazing, in the street. Others shouted: "Death to the dictator!" The video could not immediately be verified due because of government reporting restrictions.
Severe restrictions on reporters have made it almost impossible to independently verify reports on demonstrations, clashes and casualties. Iran has ordered journalists for international news agencies to stay in their offices, barring them from reporting on the streets.

Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei's refusal earlier Wednesday to bow to demands from protesters effectively closed the door to any compromise with the opposition.

The wife of opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi was defiant, saying protesters refused to buckle under a situation she compared to martial law.

Mousavi's official Web site had said a protest was planned outside parliament. But the site distanced him from the action, calling it independent and saying it had not been organized by the reformist candidate.

Mousavi's wife, Zahra Rahnavard, a former university dean who campaigned beside him, said on another of his Web sites that his followers had the constitutional right to protest and the government should not deal with them "as if martial law has been imposed in the streets."

She called for the release of all activists and others arrested at protests.

Mousavi, a former prime minister, saw his campaign transform into a protest movement after the government declared that hardline President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won the June 12 election. Mousavi says the result was fraudulent, and Western analysts who have examined available data on the vote said there were indications of manipulation.

Khamenei has ordered protests to end, leaving Mousavi with the choice of restraining followers or continuing to directly challenge the country's ultimate authority despite threats of escalating force.

"On the current situation, I was insisting and will insist on implementation of the law. That means, we will not go one step beyond the law," Khamenei said on state television. "For sure, neither the system nor the people will yield to pressure at any price." He used language that indicated he was referring to domestic pressures.

He told opposition supporters once again to halt their protests and accused the U.S., Britain and other foreign powers of fomenting days of unprecedented street protests over the vote.

Meanwhile Wednesday, a conservative candidate in the disputed presidential election said he was withdrawing his complaints about voting fraud for the sake of the country, state television reported.

The announcement by Mohsen Rezaie, a former commander of the elite Revolutionary Guards, moved the cleric-led government one step closer to a final declaration of victory for Ahmadinejad. State TV reported that Ahmadinejad would be sworn in sometime between July 26 and Aug. 19.

Iran also said that it was considering downgrading ties with Britain, which it has directly accused of spying in recent days.

The government accused Britain of using spies to foment the protests and Iran expelled two British diplomats Tuesday. Prime Minister Gordon Brown announced that two Iranian diplomats were being sent home in retaliation.

Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki was asked about the option of reducing diplomatic relations with London after a Cabinet meeting in Tehran.

"We are studying it," Mottaki said, according to state television.

State media have said that at least 17 people have been killed in postelection unrest, including 10 protesters shot during the largest demonstration on Saturday.

Mousavi's supporters flooded the streets of Tehran and other cities after the presidential vote, massing by the hundreds of thousands in protests larger than any since Iran's 1979 Islamic Revolution. Security forces initially stood by and permitted the demonstrations.

Amateur footage of a 27-year-old woman bleeding to death from a gunshot on a Tehran street unleashed outrage at home and abroad.

Despite the heavy security, a few Iranians apparently dared to venture onto the streets to pay tribute to that victim, who has been identified as Neda Agha Soltan.

On Wednesday, smoldering embers of candles were clearly visible on a street corner in central Tehran, where a vigil was held the night before for the slain young woman.

Another opposition figure, reformist presidential candidate Mahdi Karroubi, had called for a day of mourning Thursday for those killed in protests since the election.

Saeed Razavi, the spokesman for Karroubi's campaign, said on the candidate's official Web site later that any mourning was canceled because authorities hadn't given permission.

He said the mourning would be next week at the University of Tehran or near where those slain were buried.

Also, a Mousavi aide confirmed that police had raided offices of a newspaper owned by the candidate and detained 25 editorial employees.

Ali Reza Beheshti said the raid took place Monday evening in central Tehran as editorial members were preparing to relaunch the newspaper, Kalemeh Sabz, or the Green Word. The paper had been absent from newsstands for more than a week.

"Police in uniform raided the office and detained 25 members of the editorial staff," Beheshti said.

Amnesty International said Wednesday it was concerned that arrested demonstrators were at risk of torture or other ill treatment. It urged Iranian authorities to give the detainees access to their families, lawyers and any medical treatment they might need.

"Anyone detained solely for their peaceful expression of their views regarding the outcome of the election should be released immediately and unconditionally," it said.

Two players on Iran's national soccer team, Mehdi Mahdavikia and Ali Karimi, resigned for personal reasons, the semi-official ISNA news agency reported. The pair were among several team members who wore wrist bands in green — the color of Mousavi's opposition movement — before a World Cup qualifying match played last week against South Korea in Seoul.

___

Associated Press Writer William J. Kole in Cairo contributed to this report.