Iran Super Thread- Merged
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I'm not asking you to convince me of anything. I simply asked for your sources stating Iran was developing nuclear weapons. It should be quite an easy task for someone so sure they are doing it. Completing it should hardly be compared to beating ones head against a wall.
But if not, that's fine, however I will continue to call your claim out every time you make unsubstantiated claims of Iran's nuclear ambitions.
But if not, that's fine, however I will continue to call your claim out every time you make unsubstantiated claims of Iran's nuclear ambitions.
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Apparently in Iran, they have the same vote-couting systems as old Chicago...
Yrys
Army.ca Veteran
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Profile: Iran's Revolutionary Guards, October 2007, BBC News
Hi-tech helps Iranian monitoring, BBC News
Analysis: Iran splits widen
Police break up new Tehran rally
Police attack hundreds of protesters in Tehran
Iran Admits Possible Discrepancy in 3 Million Votes
Iranian Guards Issue Warning as Vote Errors Are Admitted
TEHRAN — Threatening to crush dissent, the powerful Revolutionary Guards warned protesters
Monday that they would face a “revolutionary confrontation” if they returned to the streets in
their challenge to the presidential election results and their defiance of the country’s leadership.
The warning, on the Guards’ Web site, was issued despite an admission by Iran’s most senior
panel of election monitors that the number of votes cast in 50 cities exceeded the actual number
of voters, according to a state television report two days after the country’s supreme leader
pronounced the ballot to be fair.
The discrepancies, the most sweeping acknowledged so far by the authorities, could affect
some three million ballots of what the government says was an 85 percent turnout numbering
40 million voters. But the authorities insisted that the discrepancies did not violate Iranian law.
The Guardian Council, charged with certifying the election, said it was not clear whether they
would decisively change the result.
A Revolutionary Guards statement Monday told protesters who took to the streets in a week
of demonstrations to “be prepared for a resolution and revolutionary confrontation with the
Guards, Basij and other security forces and disciplinary forces” if they continued their protests,
news reports said.
Rest of article on link
Hi-tech helps Iranian monitoring, BBC News
Analysis: Iran splits widen
Police break up new Tehran rally
Police attack hundreds of protesters in Tehran
Iran Admits Possible Discrepancy in 3 Million Votes
Iranian Guards Issue Warning as Vote Errors Are Admitted
TEHRAN — Threatening to crush dissent, the powerful Revolutionary Guards warned protesters
Monday that they would face a “revolutionary confrontation” if they returned to the streets in
their challenge to the presidential election results and their defiance of the country’s leadership.
The warning, on the Guards’ Web site, was issued despite an admission by Iran’s most senior
panel of election monitors that the number of votes cast in 50 cities exceeded the actual number
of voters, according to a state television report two days after the country’s supreme leader
pronounced the ballot to be fair.
The discrepancies, the most sweeping acknowledged so far by the authorities, could affect
some three million ballots of what the government says was an 85 percent turnout numbering
40 million voters. But the authorities insisted that the discrepancies did not violate Iranian law.
The Guardian Council, charged with certifying the election, said it was not clear whether they
would decisively change the result.
A Revolutionary Guards statement Monday told protesters who took to the streets in a week
of demonstrations to “be prepared for a resolution and revolutionary confrontation with the
Guards, Basij and other security forces and disciplinary forces” if they continued their protests,
news reports said.
Rest of article on link
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Xiang said:
Perhaps he is swayed by world opinion, United Nations reports and the great many people who have indicated that the materials that Iran seeks would be more suited to weapons manufacturing? Or Iran's fervent stated desire to destroy Israel? Another question would be "why would the planet not want Iran to simply have efficient, renewable energy sources"? That is rhetorical, however.
I believe the nuclear Iran urination contest is best pursued in the Coming War With Iran thread. How about we stick to the current crisis there with this one?
(At the risk of sounding mod-ish :warstory
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Iranian security officers pass burning debris on a Tehran street during clashes on Saturday. Photograph: Reuters
It's done IMHO.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jun/22/iran-protests-revolutionary-guard
Yrys
Army.ca Veteran
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‘Elections Don’t Make Democracy’
How Iran's Internet works
Wired For a Revolution
Will feared Basij transform Iran showdown?
Media seeks ways around Iran clampdown
Iran views: Bloodier every day
Canada denies turning away protesters, Globe & Mail
The Canadian government denied Internet reports that its Tehran embassy is actively turning away
injured protesters seeking sanctuary - but cautioned that its offices there are deliberately closed
during the height of protests against disputed presidential elections. Canadian officials could not say
what would happen should Iranian protesters seek asylum or aid outside Canada's Tehran embassy's
office hours.
People using the Internet messaging service Twitter broadcast word on Saturday that the Canadian
embassy in Tehran had refused requests for shelter and aid from Iranian demonstrators. A Department
of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman said the Canadian embassy in Tehran was closed Saturday as part of its
normal weekend shutdown. Simone McAndrew described as "false" Twitter reports that said Canada was
rejecting requests for aid and asylum. At the same time, however, she also dismissed Internet reports
that Canada was granting asylum to demonstrators.
The embassy was open yesterday - as it is normally - and did not turn away or receive injured protesters,
officials said. Ms. McAndrew said that embassy staff are cutting short office hours to avoid protests - events
that draw reprisals from Iranian authorities and have reportedly left 17 dead and hundreds injured.
"Canada's embassy is located in the centre of recent demonstrations. Due to the tense security in Tehran
this week, the embassy has been closing early so that staff can return home safely before the public and
democratic demonstrations begin," Ms. McAndrew said.
Officials said Canada's embassies do not generally offer asylum to foreigners but acknowledged they
sometimes provide a haven for individuals already inside an embassy seeking "temporary refuge"
from an "immediate threat."
Toronto resident Ali, an Iranian Canadian, called his parents in Tehran on Saturday after receiving
an e-mail from a friend that said that the Canadian embassy wasn't accepting injured protesters.
"When I got that, I called my parents in Tehran and my mom said yes, she had heard the same,"
Ali, 38, said. "They were saying that they weren't accepting people [Saturday] and saying it was
ridiculous that other embassies were and the Canadians weren't."
No country has so far confirmed that it is providing shelter for injured Iranians in its Tehran embassy.
Ali said his family is cautious about what they discuss over the phone for fear the government may be
listening in, and asked that he be identified only by his first name in order to protect his parents' identity.
He said his parents live a short walk from the Canadian embassy, but they weren't near the building on
Saturday.
How Iran's Internet works
Wired For a Revolution
Will feared Basij transform Iran showdown?
Media seeks ways around Iran clampdown
Iran views: Bloodier every day
Canada denies turning away protesters, Globe & Mail
The Canadian government denied Internet reports that its Tehran embassy is actively turning away
injured protesters seeking sanctuary - but cautioned that its offices there are deliberately closed
during the height of protests against disputed presidential elections. Canadian officials could not say
what would happen should Iranian protesters seek asylum or aid outside Canada's Tehran embassy's
office hours.
People using the Internet messaging service Twitter broadcast word on Saturday that the Canadian
embassy in Tehran had refused requests for shelter and aid from Iranian demonstrators. A Department
of Foreign Affairs spokeswoman said the Canadian embassy in Tehran was closed Saturday as part of its
normal weekend shutdown. Simone McAndrew described as "false" Twitter reports that said Canada was
rejecting requests for aid and asylum. At the same time, however, she also dismissed Internet reports
that Canada was granting asylum to demonstrators.
The embassy was open yesterday - as it is normally - and did not turn away or receive injured protesters,
officials said. Ms. McAndrew said that embassy staff are cutting short office hours to avoid protests - events
that draw reprisals from Iranian authorities and have reportedly left 17 dead and hundreds injured.
"Canada's embassy is located in the centre of recent demonstrations. Due to the tense security in Tehran
this week, the embassy has been closing early so that staff can return home safely before the public and
democratic demonstrations begin," Ms. McAndrew said.
Officials said Canada's embassies do not generally offer asylum to foreigners but acknowledged they
sometimes provide a haven for individuals already inside an embassy seeking "temporary refuge"
from an "immediate threat."
Toronto resident Ali, an Iranian Canadian, called his parents in Tehran on Saturday after receiving
an e-mail from a friend that said that the Canadian embassy wasn't accepting injured protesters.
"When I got that, I called my parents in Tehran and my mom said yes, she had heard the same,"
Ali, 38, said. "They were saying that they weren't accepting people [Saturday] and saying it was
ridiculous that other embassies were and the Canadians weren't."
No country has so far confirmed that it is providing shelter for injured Iranians in its Tehran embassy.
Ali said his family is cautious about what they discuss over the phone for fear the government may be
listening in, and asked that he be identified only by his first name in order to protect his parents' identity.
He said his parents live a short walk from the Canadian embassy, but they weren't near the building on
Saturday.
Yrys
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
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Shooting victim's fiance speaks
Death video girl 'targeted by militia'
Amateur video apparently showing a young Iranian woman dying in Tehran
after she was allegedly shot by pro-government militia on Saturday has
caused outrage in Iran and abroad.
The woman, Neda Agha-Soltan, was buried on Sunday.
Her fiance, Caspian Makan, told BBC Persian TV about the circumstances of
Neda's death. She was near the area, a few streets away, from where the
main protests were taking place, near the Amir-Abad area. She was with
her music teacher, sitting in a car and stuck in traffic. She was feeling very
tired and very hot. She got out of the car for just for a few minutes. And
that's when it all happened.
That's when she was shot dead. Eyewitnesses and video footage of shooting
clearly show that probably Basij paramilitaries in civilian clothing deliberately
targeted her. Eyewitnesses said they clearly targeted her and she was shot
in the chest. She passed away within a few minutes. People tried to take her
to the nearest hospital, the Shariati hospital. But it was too late.
"We worked so hard to get the authorities to release her body. She was taken
to a morgue outside Tehran. The officials from the morgue asked if they could
use parts of her corpse for body transplants for medical patients.
They didn't specify what exactly they intended to do. Her family agreed because
they wanted to bury her as soon as possible.
We buried her in the Behesht-e-Zahra cemetery in southern Tehran. They asked
us to bury her in this section where it seemed the authorities had set aside spaces
for graves for those killed during the violent clashes in Tehran last week. On
Monday afternoon, we had planned to hold a memorial service at the mosque.
But the authorities there and the paramilitary group, the Basij, wouldn't allow it
because they were worried it would attract unwanted attention and they didn't want
anymore trouble. The authorities are aware that everybody in Iran and throughout
the whole world knows about her story. So that's why they didn't want a memorial
service. They were afraid that lots people could turn up at the event.
So as things stand now, we are not allowed to hold any gatherings to remember Neda."
Death video girl 'targeted by militia'
Amateur video apparently showing a young Iranian woman dying in Tehran
after she was allegedly shot by pro-government militia on Saturday has
caused outrage in Iran and abroad.
The woman, Neda Agha-Soltan, was buried on Sunday.
Her fiance, Caspian Makan, told BBC Persian TV about the circumstances of
Neda's death. She was near the area, a few streets away, from where the
main protests were taking place, near the Amir-Abad area. She was with
her music teacher, sitting in a car and stuck in traffic. She was feeling very
tired and very hot. She got out of the car for just for a few minutes. And
that's when it all happened.
That's when she was shot dead. Eyewitnesses and video footage of shooting
clearly show that probably Basij paramilitaries in civilian clothing deliberately
targeted her. Eyewitnesses said they clearly targeted her and she was shot
in the chest. She passed away within a few minutes. People tried to take her
to the nearest hospital, the Shariati hospital. But it was too late.
"We worked so hard to get the authorities to release her body. She was taken
to a morgue outside Tehran. The officials from the morgue asked if they could
use parts of her corpse for body transplants for medical patients.
They didn't specify what exactly they intended to do. Her family agreed because
they wanted to bury her as soon as possible.
We buried her in the Behesht-e-Zahra cemetery in southern Tehran. They asked
us to bury her in this section where it seemed the authorities had set aside spaces
for graves for those killed during the violent clashes in Tehran last week. On
Monday afternoon, we had planned to hold a memorial service at the mosque.
But the authorities there and the paramilitary group, the Basij, wouldn't allow it
because they were worried it would attract unwanted attention and they didn't want
anymore trouble. The authorities are aware that everybody in Iran and throughout
the whole world knows about her story. So that's why they didn't want a memorial
service. They were afraid that lots people could turn up at the event.
So as things stand now, we are not allowed to hold any gatherings to remember Neda."
tango22a said:
How is asking someone to back something they say up with some sort of proof trolling? If I make a claim on these boards I'm expected to back it up when asked why I believe in what I posted. Just because someone has a different opinion than you, it doesn't mean they are trolling. Xiang makes some very good points. People need to stop throwing around the word troll, it devalues the word when anyone who doesn't agree with you can be labeled one.
Yrys
Army.ca Veteran
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- Points
- 430
Fighting tears, shah's son calls crisis a 'moment of truth'
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The son of the former shah of Iran called Monday for solidarity
against Iran's Islamic regime, warning that the democratic movement born out of the
election crisis might not succeed without international support.
"The moment of truth has arrived," Reza Shah Pahlavi said at Washington's National
Press Club. "The people of Iran need to know who stands with them."
Pahlavi has lived in exile since 1979, when his father, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi,
was overthrown during the Islamic Revolution. Under the shah's regime, Iran saw
nationalization of its oil and a strong movement toward modernization. Still, his secular
programs and recognition of Israel cost him the support of the country's Shiite clergy,
sparking clashes with the religious right and others who resented his pro-West views.
The son now lives in the United States with his family, where he spends much of his
time talking about the Islamic regime in Iran. During his remarks, he broke into tears
when he spoke of "bullets piercing our beloved Neda," a woman killed Saturday by
Iranian police at a protest in Tehran, whose death has become a rallying cry among
demonstrators in Iran.
The Iranian regime, he said, was a "sinking Titanic" that might not survive the demands
for democracy and human rights reverberating through the country. Citing anecdotes
from people inside the Iranian establishment, Pahlavi said he had heard that security
forces have begun to distance themselves from the regime. "It has already started,"
he said, citing reports that members of the security forces have gone home after
their shifts ended and changed into plain clothes to join the protesters.
"Many, many elements within the security forces, within the Revolutionary Guard,
are showing discontent," Pahlavi said. "There is an amazing reflection that is happening.
... This is a movement that has blown out of proportion."
Pahlavi praised the statements and tone of President Obama, saying that any outside
attempt to interfere in Iran's internal affairs "will give the tyrants the excuse they need
to paper over their own differences and target every man struggling for freedom as a
foreign agent." But he said there was a difference between interfering in a country's
sovereign affairs and standing for principles of human rights and democracy.
"We welcome that. This is effective. It is important," he said. "This is precisely what
Iranians at home demand world leaders, particularly someone like President Obama,
who after all his entire message of hope and change and affirmative action ... was a
big inspiration to many." But, he added, Obama and other world leaders must be
prepared to change their tactics if the violence against protesters gets much worse.
"The question is, what will the world governments do this time?" he asked. "Are we
going to have Tiananmen Square revisited? Or is [it] going to be this time different?"
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The son of the former shah of Iran called Monday for solidarity
against Iran's Islamic regime, warning that the democratic movement born out of the
election crisis might not succeed without international support.
"The moment of truth has arrived," Reza Shah Pahlavi said at Washington's National
Press Club. "The people of Iran need to know who stands with them."
Pahlavi has lived in exile since 1979, when his father, Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi,
was overthrown during the Islamic Revolution. Under the shah's regime, Iran saw
nationalization of its oil and a strong movement toward modernization. Still, his secular
programs and recognition of Israel cost him the support of the country's Shiite clergy,
sparking clashes with the religious right and others who resented his pro-West views.
The son now lives in the United States with his family, where he spends much of his
time talking about the Islamic regime in Iran. During his remarks, he broke into tears
when he spoke of "bullets piercing our beloved Neda," a woman killed Saturday by
Iranian police at a protest in Tehran, whose death has become a rallying cry among
demonstrators in Iran.
The Iranian regime, he said, was a "sinking Titanic" that might not survive the demands
for democracy and human rights reverberating through the country. Citing anecdotes
from people inside the Iranian establishment, Pahlavi said he had heard that security
forces have begun to distance themselves from the regime. "It has already started,"
he said, citing reports that members of the security forces have gone home after
their shifts ended and changed into plain clothes to join the protesters.
"Many, many elements within the security forces, within the Revolutionary Guard,
are showing discontent," Pahlavi said. "There is an amazing reflection that is happening.
... This is a movement that has blown out of proportion."
Pahlavi praised the statements and tone of President Obama, saying that any outside
attempt to interfere in Iran's internal affairs "will give the tyrants the excuse they need
to paper over their own differences and target every man struggling for freedom as a
foreign agent." But he said there was a difference between interfering in a country's
sovereign affairs and standing for principles of human rights and democracy.
"We welcome that. This is effective. It is important," he said. "This is precisely what
Iranians at home demand world leaders, particularly someone like President Obama,
who after all his entire message of hope and change and affirmative action ... was a
big inspiration to many." But, he added, Obama and other world leaders must be
prepared to change their tactics if the violence against protesters gets much worse.
"The question is, what will the world governments do this time?" he asked. "Are we
going to have Tiananmen Square revisited? Or is [it] going to be this time different?"
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Yrys said:
Apparently like Tiananmen Square, this recent struggle by opposition supporters in Iran now has its own iconic symbol:
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/090622/world/iran_violence_media
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TheHead said:
TH,
Do you really think a radical islamic nation with nuclear power is a good thing?
Well I don't think so, and I am not alone.
I am not sparring for a fight with you or Xiang, but common sense prevails.
Opinions are one thing but how they are presented is another. I think thats one thing we can agree upon.
I rest my case.
Regards from the tropics,
OWDU
tango22a, are you really up for making the mistake of calling me a troll too? I would suggest you read my post history. I do not come to stir the nest and leave. I present my point of view, and back it up with as much information as possible.
Unfortunately I can't say the same for some people I debate, and you call ME the troll?
I would say "take a hike" but I'm not here to toss around petty remarks.
If you would like to debate, let's take it to the Coming War with Iran thread, but I would suggest you read my comments in that thread first. I do not feel like repeating myself.
Thanks, and good day.
Unfortunately I can't say the same for some people I debate, and you call ME the troll?
I would say "take a hike" but I'm not here to toss around petty remarks.
If you would like to debate, let's take it to the Coming War with Iran thread, but I would suggest you read my comments in that thread first. I do not feel like repeating myself.
Thanks, and good day.
- Reaction score
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- 410
Xiang,
Whether or not the stated goal of Iran's nuclear program is for weapons or for energy is pretty irrelevant to me. Sanding by while they develop nuclear technology is like selling a gun to a known murderer because he told you that he'd "only be hunting deer".
While it is possible that they want nuclear technology for peaceful reasons, the risks are to great and the consequences too serious.
That, and I'm pretty sure the Iranian government has Canadian blood on it's hands. Let the country burn.
Whether or not the stated goal of Iran's nuclear program is for weapons or for energy is pretty irrelevant to me. Sanding by while they develop nuclear technology is like selling a gun to a known murderer because he told you that he'd "only be hunting deer".
While it is possible that they want nuclear technology for peaceful reasons, the risks are to great and the consequences too serious.
That, and I'm pretty sure the Iranian government has Canadian blood on it's hands. Let the country burn.
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- 210
Xiang:
As both you and I know the theocratic leadership of Iran is determined on the destruction of Israel. Looking at the results of the election indicate to me that MORE votes were counted than were cast. How can a candidate justify winning if this is so? Rubber-stamping by an election review board will not legitimize election results. Repression by supporters of Khameni is going to lead to civil war in Iran. I, for one, am glad that Ahmedinejad and his buddies do not yet have a nuke that they can deploy against Israel to take the great masses of ordinary Iranians attention off their internal problems. Ahmedinejad has stated that Iran has the delivery systems....all they lack now is the payload.
Also please notice my personal disclaimer
tango22a
As both you and I know the theocratic leadership of Iran is determined on the destruction of Israel. Looking at the results of the election indicate to me that MORE votes were counted than were cast. How can a candidate justify winning if this is so? Rubber-stamping by an election review board will not legitimize election results. Repression by supporters of Khameni is going to lead to civil war in Iran. I, for one, am glad that Ahmedinejad and his buddies do not yet have a nuke that they can deploy against Israel to take the great masses of ordinary Iranians attention off their internal problems. Ahmedinejad has stated that Iran has the delivery systems....all they lack now is the payload.
Also please notice my personal disclaimer
tango22a
That analogy would presume Iran (as you claim to be the murderer), has been accused, and convicted of some large scale global crime, which they haven't.
What you and everyone else who beat the war drums are doing is suggesting punishment before the crime, which is wrong.
Fact: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was misquoted as saying he wants to wipe Israel off the map. Persian linguists were largely ignored at the cost of sensational media coverage and the wide spread of misinformation on what he actually said. In other words, you aren't going to find CNN retracting and apologizing.
Source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_misquotations
Ahmadinejad's statement literally translated says that "the Zionist regime should be wiped from the page of time" (بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود). According to Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as: The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad).
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/jun/14/post155
Experts confirm that Iran's president did not call for Israel to be 'wiped off the map'. Reports that he did serve to strengthen western hawks.
Now, both being members of the forces, I think we can both agree that the media sometimes will report on what is more sensational rather than what is correct.
Fact: No evidence of Iranian nuclear weapons program.
Source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6167304.stm
The US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) has not found conclusive evidence that Iran is developing nuclear weapons, a US magazine has reported.
http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/ElBaradei_says_no_%27concrete_evidence%27_of_Iranian_nuclear_weapons_program
Mohamed ElBaradei, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, said on Sunday that he had seen no "concrete evidence" that Iran is developing nuclear weapons.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/22/AR2005082201447.html
Traces of bomb-grade uranium found two years ago in Iran came from contaminated Pakistani equipment and are not evidence of a clandestine nuclear weapons program, a group of U.S. government experts and other international scientists has determined.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/21067.html
WASHINGTON — Despite President Bush's claims that Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons that could trigger "World War III," experts in and out of government say there's no conclusive evidence that Tehran has an active nuclear-weapons program.
I am interested in seeing your reports that say, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Iran is in fact building a nuclear weapon. This is war we're talking about. This isn't a video game. If you are going to destroy ANOTHER country, you better be DAMN sure you have the evidence. Unless of course you are content with the Iraqi WMD fiasco, and all the people who died in that country on a notion that turned out to be clearly false.
Fact: Iran needs nuclear power to sustain itself
Source:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/14/opinion/14iht-edsahimi_ed3_.html
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=68938§ionid=351020104
A Tel Aviv based analyst on Middle East issues says that the need for new sources of energy justifies Iran's push for nuclear technology.
http://www.payvand.com/news/07/jul/1078.html
ran needs nuclear energy for its economic survival
http://www.iranaffairs.com/iran_affairs/2007/11/irans-nuclear-e.html
The November 2005 IAEA report stated - yet again - that Iran is in full compliance with the NPT and there's no actual evidence an existing nuclear weapons program in Iran.
Here is my case, presented without rhetoric, and backed by facts and sources.
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