Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[CBH99]

Most of my friends aren't aware that Canada even has a military, and nobody knows that you can join the reserves in high school. It's definitely an issue, when most students are considering summer/part time jobs, they don't even know its an option. Simple solution: send recruiters to schools. Perhaps bring a few plastic rifles, some CADPAT, and the ability to start your application on the spot. All your recruiting problems for the Reserves are gone. Retention? That's far more difficult. Contracts are probably a good place to start.

When I was the unit recruiter, I went to one or two career fairs at the local high schools each year. By invitation. Same applied to the local college. Regardless of whether people followed up and applied, I always had a busy booth.

You can't have half a platoon in one unit, a weapons section in another, then expect them to work well together unless they regularly participate in exercises together, which requires job protection at a federal level.

Call me crazy, but didn't the federal government pass this very legislation ages ago during the Afghan war years?

I distinctly remember (perhaps in a parallel universe) that the government had passed legislation protecting reservist's employment who were getting ready to deploy. It was discussed both at the unit level, and my own separate recruiting CoC.

 

[medic5]

When I was the unit recruiter, I went to one or two career fairs at the local high schools each year. By invitation. Same applied to the local college. Regardless of whether people followed up and applied, I always had a busy booth.

This is just my thoughts, but recruiting in Canada feels very passive on the part of recruiters. In the US, there are lots of stories about recruiters texting high schoolers about their plans, recruiting offices next to the Mcdonalds, and obviously JROTC at every high school. Once again, just my own thoughts from my very limited experience, haven't gone through the recruiting process in either country.

I'm guessing its partially a culture thing and also that Canada has a smaller military proportionately. It also seems to me that US recruiters are more proactive and "seek out" recruits as opposed to waiting for them to email. So CBH, want to convince me of the merits of joining the Reserves? (This is a joke, I'm applying this summer as soon as I finish this biology course which for some weird reason is a requirement for Med A)

Call me crazy, but didn't the federal government pass this very legislation ages ago during the Afghan war years?

I distinctly remember (perhaps in a parallel universe) that the government had passed legislation protecting reservist's employment who were getting ready to deploy. It was discussed both at the unit level, and my own separate recruiting CoC.

I was not even alive when Afghanistan happened so I'm far from the most knowledgable person on this, but I think I read something on another thread about how job protection was only for pre deployment training, the key word there being deployment. There needs to be job protection for training that is not predeployment, unless we want to wait for a war before a platoon finally trains together.

I think that one of the biggest issues with the Reserves outside of what we've discussed above is the lack of training as a larger unit. A reserve platoon needs to know how to work with other platoons, with weapons companies and artillery and armour, which I hope can be practiced before pre deployment training. The only way to practice the skills I've described is through exercises, and the only way to do exercises of reserve units outside of predeployment is employment protection so people can actually show up.

Take everything I've said with a grain of salt, the extent of my experience is reading about this sort of thing because I find it interesting.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Call me crazy, but didn't the federal government pass this very legislation ages ago during the Afghan war years?

I distinctly remember (perhaps in a parallel universe) that the government had passed legislation protecting reservist's employment who were getting ready to deploy. It was discussed both at the unit level, and my own separate recruiting CoC.

It's pretty useless legislation, IMHO.

If you work for the public sector you probably already get time off.

If you work for yourself, you're probably going to be unemployed when you return.

If you work for the private sector, except in a few cases, the same thing will likely occur at some point because not many organizations can justify/ support having an employee away for that long.

 

[FJAG]

When I was the unit recruiter, I went to one or two career fairs at the local high schools each year. By invitation. Same applied to the local college. Regardless of whether people followed up and applied, I always had a busy booth.

Call me crazy, but didn't the federal government pass this very legislation ages ago during the Afghan war years?

I distinctly remember (perhaps in a parallel universe) that the government had passed legislation protecting reservist's employment who were getting ready to deploy. It was discussed both at the unit level, and my own separate recruiting CoC.

Job protection was passed but it's very limited, designed for operational deployments only. There's no protection whatsoever for training. The legislation is federal for federal employees and provincial (mostly as part of employment standards legislation)for everyone else and varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and in most cases is toothless. For a look at your provinces legislation see here.

I used one as a AVGP in a Combat Team Attack once.

There weren't enough APCs for everyone and I thought it better that a rifle section got the one meant for the Cbt Tm Comd. So I just commandeered a Jeep from the umpires, which already had a radio, and 'Tally Ho'!

It was kind of fun weaving in and out between the Leo 1s and the APCs in the assault.

For me and the driver

You're a braver man than me, Gunga Din. When I was running around with the Germans I'd even get nervous if all I had was an aluminum M113 amongst all that careening steel around me. Never too fond of having a hatches-closed Leo reversing out of a firing position at full speed near me. If I'd been in a CJ or an Iltis I would have been so far behind the charge that they would've had to use an HF radio to get ahold of me.

 

[lenaitch]

Most of my friends aren't aware that Canada even has a military, and nobody knows that you can join the reserves in high school. It's definitely an issue, when most students are considering summer/part time jobs, they don't even know its an option. Simple solution: send recruiters to schools. Perhaps bring a few plastic rifles, some CADPAT, and the ability to start your application on the spot. All your recruiting problems for the Reserves are gone. Retention? That's far more difficult. Contracts are probably a good place to start.

About equipment, what about Humvees? Super easy to maintain, they aren't that large, you could probably just park it next to the armoury. It's not particularly useful, but at least its a vehicle right?

Great idea, but in many areas, particularly urban, school boards, teachers' unions parents' groups, and a political party or two, would be apoplectic.

 

[medic5]

Great idea, but in many areas, particularly urban, school boards, teachers' unions parents' groups, and a political party or two, would be apoplectic.


View attachment 65794

Well could the school boards and teachers unions stop recruiters from say, setting up on a street corner that just happens to be next to a school? There is a marijuana dispensary within 500 meters of my school, and I don't see any outrage yet.

 

[quadrapiper]

Great idea, but in many areas, particularly urban, school boards, teachers' unions parents' groups, and a political party or two, would be apoplectic.

Given the grumbling from school staff in Sooke, which has a significant CAF population (just up the road from Esquimalt), about cadet recruiting in schools, best of luck!

 

[Brad Sallows]

In my time, the local unit would send a couple of guys to the high school career fair. As it happened, one of them was a classmate (joined as soon as permitted).

In addition to JROTC, the US has closer ties between its Scouting organizations and its armed forces. Here, I'm not even sure the boys can have their own scout troops without having to admit girls. Probably don't even do "British Bulldog" anymore.

 

[Underway]

I used one as a AVGP in a Combat Team Attack once.

There weren't enough APCs for everyone and I thought it better that a rifle section got the one meant for the Cbt Tm Comd. So I just commandeered a Jeep from the umpires, which already had a radio, and 'Tally Ho'!

It was kind of fun weaving in and out between the Leo 1s and the APCs in the assault.

For me and the driver

I get it. Was on a CIMIC team during a Level 6 live-fire range with an entire combat team. GWagon amoung the tanks and LAV's. Insanely cool for a navy guy. I musta had my face right up against the glass the whole time like a kid in a Christmas window.

 

[Kirkhill]

Would you ever deploy said platoons? If not, then this is another administrative formation, which is more or less the same as what we have right now.

You can't have half a platoon in one unit, a weapons section in another, then expect them to work well together unless they regularly participate in exercises together, which requires job protection at a federal level.

Reserve restructuring is impossible unless our political leaders actually make an effort for it. Geography is a challenge yes, but the US ARG has figured it out in some of their less densely populated states. If they can put together deployable BCTs, surely we can deploy at least battalion sized units right? There just needs to be the political will to do so.

Would you ever deploy said platoons?

As part of a Reserve Company or Battalion group on local DomOps? Perhaps.
As part of a Regular Company or Battalion group on Expeditionary Ops? Perhaps.

I know that many are weary of me banging the same drum. I get weary. But I figure if FJAG and his Heavy Supporters can persevere than I can continue to offer what I hope is constructive opposition.

So.

The nature of warfare continues its never-ending cycle of adaptation as people find new ways to adapt and overcome. This invariably means doing what the other guy isn't. Nobody can defend against all threats. Nobody can hold everything.

But.

Any single course of action is doomed to failure. Balance is required.

To which I continue to argue for the inclusion of a robust "light" component in the Force 2025 structure.

It is relatively cheap.
It is deployable.
It is useful.

It is in tune with the zeitgeist of our allies.
It is compatible with a continuing maritime presence aboard both the AOPS and the CSCs.
It is air deployable.
It is operational by air, sea and land in terrain inaccessible by road.
It reflects the continuing rise in non-conventional disruptive efforts by our enemies that is generating increasing demand for Special Operations Forces.

It reflects the return to "history" or, as I choose to call it "Hobbesian Conflict", more commonly known these days as Dispersed, Multi-Domain, Grey Zone conflict.

The Medium Force is a capability. It can, indeed, be a useful capability. It shouldn't be our only capability.
The Medium Force is the modern equivalent of the Hanoverian Dragoons raised to maintain order in Britain during the Jacobite insurgencies of the early 1700s. But the Hanoverians also raised regiments of light infantry to serve the government's foreign interests aboard the Royal Navy.

FJAG argues for a Heavy Reserve in support of the Medium Force.

I argue for a Light Reserve in support of CANSOFCOM.

Both efforts require a bridging element of Regulars to join the Reserve to the Regs.

The Heavy Reserve needs Maintainers and Trainers.

The Light Reserve needs Trainers and many fewer Maintainers. It also requires many fewer dollars.


Again, I emphasise, I am not talking about superhero weekend warriors. I am talking about regular infantry doing regular infantry things, in dispersed small units, creating an environment in which Special Forces and Medium Forces can succeed.


The discussion is a live one all over.

Lawmaker: Special Operations Must Adapt to Gray Zone Conflict - USNI News

Increasing gray zone conflicts around the world means U.S. Special Operations Command must adapt to the era of great power competition while still being a counter-terrorism force, a key House lawmaker said Wednesday. Disinformation campaigns by China, Russia and others and attacks by...

news.usni.org

Putting the Sting in the Tri-Service Maritime Strategy: A Vision for the Future of the MAGTF - Modern War Institute

The newest US maritime strategy, Advantage at Sea, fails to include the Marine Air-Ground Task Force (MAGTF) as a viable operational component for competition in the gray zone. Though Advantage […]

mwi.usma.edu

JUST IN Report Army Doing Poor Job Communicating Its Tactical Wheeled Vehicle Needs

JUST IN Report Army Doing Poor Job Communicating Its Tactical Wheeled Vehicle Needs

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org

 

[FJAG]

... But I figure if FJAG and his Heavy Supporters can persevere than I can continue to offer what I hope is constructive opposition.

... The Medium Force is a capability. It can, indeed, be a useful capability. It shouldn't be our only capability.

... FJAG argues for a Heavy Reserve in support of the Medium Force.

... I argue for a Light Reserve in support of CANSOFCOM.

Let us not forget that in arguing for a heavy force amongst the reserves I do not throw either the medium or light force overboard. I think that there is abundant justification for all three as well as appropriate and robust combat and combat service support.

My overriding argument for where to employ reservists is in such jobs where 1) they are not needed for the Force's day to day operations; and 2) they are not required as a quick reaction force nor are their skill sets so complex that they need to practice them on a day to day basis.

It's for those reasons that I can see a heavy force as being reservist primarily because they are only needed in extreme circumstances, they cost significantly less to maintain year to year and their skill sets are such that for the most part they can be broken down into easily manageable subsets. There are clearly components within the force that need a higher level of training and experience than the average reservist can acquire but because of that I insist that there must be a number of full-timers in key positions throughout the heavy structure.

I don't actually argue for a heavy force to support the medium force per se. I believe that the two coexist and have some differing levels of capabilities that may in certain circumstances be complimentary. I have the same opinion about light forces.

I can see both light and medium reserve forces. My insistence for light and medium forces making up the bulk of the full-time branch of the Army is based almost exclusively on the fact that I see these capabilities as being needed on either short notice or on continuing day to day operations of the type currently being carried out by the CAF. In fact, the type of light force that you advocate would in my mind fit into the reserve scheme of things very well. We do not need anti-armour hunting teams on a day to day basis but reservists skilled in the weapon handling and tactics involved would be of benefit in an extreme situation where we are required to fight a force with an armour capability. As you point out they would be relatively inexpensive, easy to train and easy to maintain.

I do not see much use for many of the Class A type of reservist with CANSOFCOM because of the high readiness and high skill requirements of that organization albeit that individual situations (such as released CANSOFCOM personnel) might apply. IMHO your type of force would fit better into the Army in general.

 

[medic5]

I agree with FJAG here. Light forces will be used more in non peer conflicts, and heavy forces will be used in peer conflicts, meaning that the Reserves should contain the heavy forces.

Here's a question that I have. What use is there for medium forces, at least medium forces in the current configuration we have? An LAV is just as immobile as a Bradley strategically, throwing in a few tanks wouldn't make that much of a difference at a large scale. I think we can all agree that a heavy force is much more useful in a peer conflict, and a light force is much more useful in difficult terrain/lower intensity conflicts. What need is there for a medium force? At least one that has the strategic mobility of a heavy force, but not the capabilities of one.

And could someone link that tool for making ORBATs? I'd like to give it a shot.

 

[FJAG]

I agree with FJAG here. Light forces will be used more in non peer conflicts, and heavy forces will be used in peer conflicts, meaning that the Reserves should contain the heavy forces.

Here's a question that I have. What use is there for medium forces, at least medium forces in the current configuration we have? An LAV is just as immobile as a Bradley strategically, throwing in a few tanks wouldn't make that much of a difference at a large scale. I think we can all agree that a heavy force is much more useful in a peer conflict, and a light force is much more useful in difficult terrain/lower intensity conflicts. What need is there for a medium force? At least one that has the strategic mobility of a heavy force, but not the capabilities of one.

And could someone link that tool for making ORBATs? I'd like to give it a shot.

I see them very useful in peacekeeping operations as a show of force and patrol vehicle with a basic mine and small arms resistance capability. I actually think that they would be very useful for that. One might want to add anti-rpg screens for that.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This is a fascinating discussion, but given that 2025 is only three years away I do wonder about its utility.

I note that the Government-of-the-Day seems (as far as I can see) to have given no strategic direction. That doesn't surprise me. At a guess something in excess of 60% of Canadians never, ever think about the Canadian Armed Forces (unless prompted by either casualties or a scandal) and almost all of those (my guess is 50%+ of the adult population agree with this: Opinion: ‘Defence’ doesn’t fit the job of Canada’s military any more. Let’s create a Department of National Safety instead

 

[FJAG]

This is a fascinating discussion, but given that 2025 is only three years away I do wonder about its utility.

I note that the Government-of-the-Day seems (as far as I can see) to have given no strategic direction.

This isn't really a government initiative in the first place. It's an initiative from within the Army to see how it can improve with the resources available to it and still meet the governments SSE requirements. The SSE, much as I dislike it, is the governments current direction. Force 2025 is one of the Army's processes of implementing that direction.

Notwithstanding certain criticisms I might have made in this thread above, I fully support the concept. Each service should constantly be looking at how to improve on a continuing basis. The transformation initiated in the late 1990s that got the Army to what it was today was one such initiative. IMHO that transformation was based on some misguided assumptions but it did allow the Army, by fits and starts, to manoeuvre its way through almost a decade of war. Unfortunately, it left the Army badly poised for the future; something that the Army should have clearly recognized and addressed five or six years ago but didn't.

Better late than never. I truly hope something positive comes out of this notwithstanding all the chaff blowing around the CAF at this time.

 

[medic5]

This is a fascinating discussion, but given that 2025 is only three years away I do wonder about its utility.

I note that the Government-of-the-Day seems (as far as I can see) to have given no strategic direction. That doesn't surprise me. At a guess something in excess of 60% of Canadians never, ever think about the Canadian Armed Forces (unless prompted by either casualties or a scandal) and almost all of those (my guess is 50%+ of the adult population agree with this: Opinion: ‘Defence’ doesn’t fit the job of Canada’s military any more. Let’s create a Department of National Safety instead



View attachment 65809

Reading that article made me absolutely furious. This quote especially:

"Militarism is a cancer in the U.S. and every other secure country that buys into the idea that war is every country’s principal threat. Even in Canada, “defence” represents the largest discretionary line item in the federal government’s budget."

I don't understand, why does funding for climate change, or pandemic protection, or firefighting have to come out of the CAF budget? This is the same line of thinking that US "activists" use, saying things like, "free college for all if you just cut the US military budget by 10%!".

Just because that climate change or pandemics or whatever natural disaster presents a threat, does not mean that the need for an armed forces disappears.

Militarism is a cancer in the US. I would argue that if it weren't for this "cancer", the world and definitely Canada would be in a worse place.

 

[MilEME09]

https://www.facebook.com/230798677012118/posts/4093953500696597

So a look into the world of Force 2025, good bye armoured recce, hello Cavalry Regiments!

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The LAV-6 is as heavy as most tracked APC's/IFV's. One option is to build up the recovery and Combat Engineering portions of the Reserves to provide depth and support to regular for units deployed on missions. Because I suspect the LAV-6 in Combat is going to eat up recovery assets quickly.

 

[Weinie]

The LAV-6 is as heavy as most tracked APC's/IFV's. One option is to build up the recovery and Combat Engineering portions of the Reserves to provide depth and support to regular for units deployed on missions. Because I suspect the LAV-6 in Combat is going to get eaten up recovery assets quickly.

FTFY.

 

[dapaterson]

First fitter LAV will be part of the ACSV project. Recovery for LAVs is a job for a Leo II recovery variant.

RCEME reserve is an interesting problem space, worsened repeatedly by allegedly smart officers continually resetting and "improving" training such that no one ever can complete training before it gets reset again.

Nothing like having a soldier returned from a course because the 1.3 they were loaded on is now the same as the 1.2 they did last year, and what they really need is the new 1.2 (and no one in the RCEME school knew it when they were loaded). Bonus points when said soldier's dad is a general...