Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[FJAG]

Is that because nobody but the Americans have deployed enough in recent decades to actually NEED a viable Reserve force?

No I don't think so. Britain and Canada (and I think Australia) used reservists to flesh out their units. I don't think the other Europeans had any (or many). The US, however, sent numerous NG units and even brigades for the Op Phoenix rotations in Afghanistan and substantial NG and USAR units and subunits to Iraq.

The point is that when you have organized and equipped reserve units then you can use them. If you do not have them, then even if you wanted to or needed to, you can't. To me that's the fundamental issue. The way Canada organizes its reserve force means that you have a force almost as large as the Reg Army that cannot be utilized except in limited ways even though the legislative framework provides a much broader contemplated use.

I honestly keep wondering if this is a Government or military leadership issue (both Reg and Res). It's really quite a chicken and the egg problem.

 

[WLSC]

No I don't think so. Britain and Canada (and I think Australia) used reservists to flesh out their units. I don't think the other Europeans had any (or many). The US, however, sent numerous NG units and even brigades for the Op Phoenix rotations in Afghanistan and substantial NG and USAR units and subunits to Iraq.

The point is that when you have organized and equipped reserve units then you can use them. If you do not have them, then even if you wanted to or needed to, you can't. To me that's the fundamental issue. The way Canada organizes its reserve force means that you have a force almost as large as the Reg Army that cannot be utilized except in limited ways even though the legislative framework provides a much broader contemplated use.

I honestly keep wondering if this is a Government or military leadership issue (both Reg and Res). It's really quite a chicken and the egg problem.

I think it's both. I had a discussion once with a L0.5 CWO. He said that Canada has no legal way to call-up reservist... I informed him about the obligation the serve part of the NDA which he had to ask for confirmation because he didn't know. Then he sais that no GOFO would ever consider asking for that.

So, I would suggest that they kinda know but don't want to really make that part of the NDA works as it allows the CAF to do.

 

[Kirkhill]

No I don't think so. Britain and Canada (and I think Australia) used reservists to flesh out their units. I don't think the other Europeans had any (or many). The US, however, sent numerous NG units and even brigades for the Op Phoenix rotations in Afghanistan and substantial NG and USAR units and subunits to Iraq.

The point is that when you have organized and equipped reserve units then you can use them. If you do not have them, then even if you wanted to or needed to, you can't. To me that's the fundamental issue. The way Canada organizes its reserve force means that you have a force almost as large as the Reg Army that cannot be utilized except in limited ways even though the legislative framework provides a much broader contemplated use.

I honestly keep wondering if this is a Government or military leadership issue (both Reg and Res). It's really quite a chicken and the egg problem.

I think it's both. I had a discussion once with a L0.5 CWO. He said that Canada has no legal way to call-up reservist... I informed him about the obligation the serve part of the NDA which he had to ask for confirmation because he didn't know. Then he sais that no GOFO would ever consider asking for that.

So, I would suggest that they kinda know but don't want to really make that part of the NDA works as it allows the CAF to do.

Perhaps it is as simple as the Regular force is not convinced that the available pay allowance is adequate to the needs of their numbers? Not enough money to share?

 

[WLSC]

Perhaps it is as simple as the Regular force is not convinced that the available pay allowance is adequate to the needs of their numbers? Not enough money to share?

Not enough money to share, no real trust/faith, kids attitude of not willing to share is toys because it is seen as a threat (manly infantry), the acknowledgment that the ARes is now broken partly by their own fault (strat level), lack of political direction, etc. They now realizing that they are as broken as we are and have no clue/ressources how to fix the entire CA.

A discussion between any cbt arms WO/NCO's vs the infantry is quite enlighting.

I kinda see similitudes between the CA of 1937-pre sept 1939 and today (all comparison not being equals).

 

[Kirkhill]

@FJAG keeps holding the US Nat Gd as a useful model.

The Nat Gd wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the 50 States. The Army has been diligent in getting those bodies when it can. But it doesn't own them.

 

[WLSC]

@FJAG keeps holding the US Nat Gd as a useful model.

The Nat Gd wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the 50 States. The Army has been diligent in getting those bodies when it can. But it doesn't own them.

And I agree with him. The big difference here is the the CA own us. I don't see a return of pre 1867 in ARes ownership neither it should be don

 

[Furniture]

I think it's both. I had a discussion once with a L0.5 CWO. He said that Canada has no legal way to call-up reservist... I informed him about the obligation the serve part of the NDA which he had to ask for confirmation because he didn't know. Then he sais that no GOFO would ever consider asking for that.

So, I would suggest that they kinda know but don't want to really make that part of the NDA works as it allows the CAF to do.

It's not the GOFOs that won't use the NDA that way, it's the politicians who would be committing career suicide.

We need to remember that Canada isn't America. The public has no appetite to read int he papers/online about reservists being forced to go overseas, and companies being forced to let their employees go away for 6-12 months at a time.

 

[KevinB]

It's not the GOFOs that won't use the NDA that way, it's the politicians who would be committing career suicide.

We need to remember that Canada isn't America. The public has no appetite to read int he papers/online about reservists being forced to go overseas, and companies being forced to let their employees go away for 6-12 months at a time.

How’s their appetite for learning Russian or Chinese?

 

[RangerRay]

How’s their appetite for learning Russian or Chinese?

It’s ok. America will protect us.

 

[childs56]

It's not the GOFOs that won't use the NDA that way, it's the politicians who would be committing career suicide.

We need to remember that Canada isn't America. The public has no appetite to read int he papers/online about reservists being forced to go overseas, and companies being forced to let their employees go away for 6-12 months at a time.

But even if they Called up the Reserves to provide a training contingent here in Canada while the Regular Force shores up the front line. But to many gaps within the system, not enough resources and to small of thought process overall.

 

[Furniture]

How’s their appetite for learning Russian or Chinese?

By the time that's a credible threat, the appetite will be there, but right now? There is none. Mobilizing the reserves to go sort out Haiti, or to put a speed bump in Latvia is not anywhere near similar to defending the homeland.

In WWI, WWII, Korea, and Afghanistan there were lots of volunteers. If Canada ends up at war with Russia or China, there will be lots of volunteers.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It’s ok. America will protect us.

Even if we don't need their protection....

 

[WLSC]

It's not the GOFOs that won't use the NDA that way, it's the politicians who would be committing career suicide.

We need to remember that Canada isn't America. The public has no appetite to read int he papers/online about reservists being forced to go overseas, and companies being forced to let their employees go away for 6-12 months at a time.

I kinda agree with you. The starting point was my answer to @FJAG about the usage of the NDA when you need the ARes. If a L0.5 CWO don't know the tools they got at the strat level, it give you an idea why we enroll under the false premise that the GoC can't force you to be called up or deployed. It is simply false. When you address the subject, it always the same 2 answers; ''When is the last time'' and ''it will never ever happens again''

Right now, the system ''works'' because we managed the needs. It's organized chaos IMHO. If we had sub/sub-sub units on rotation it would be less chaotic but that another story. We are not organized or resourced for that tool to be used anyway.

 

[Furniture]

I kinda agree with you. The starting point was my answer to @FJAG about the usage of the NDA when you need the ARes. If a L0.5 CWO don't know the tools they got at the strat level, it give you an idea why we enroll under the false premise that the GoC can't force you to be called up or deployed. It is simply false. When you address the subject, it always the same 2 answers; ''When is the last time'' and ''it will never ever happens again''

Right now, the system ''works'' because we managed the needs. It's organized chaos IMHO. If we had sub/sub-sub units on rotation it would be less chaotic but that another story. We are not organized or resourced for that tool to be used anyway.

If Canada said "screw it, let's use the NDA", how long would it be before the forum was filled with "My company let me go because I was a reservist", or "When they found out I was a reservist they didn't hire me"?

Suppose the business community gets on board, how long until something happens to a reservist that was "forced" to deploy, and their family goes running to the media crying because their baby was murdered by the government?

Canada isn't America, Canada does not have the same culture WRT military service, and wishing it was so won't change that.

Edit: I'm not saying this because I'm proud Canada doesn't take the CAF seriously, whether Reg or Res, I'm simply pointing out that looking south and saying "they do it so why can't we" is a fairly pointless discussion on this particular subject.

 

[WLSC]

If Canada said "screw it, let's use the NDA", how long would it be before the forum was filled with "My company let me go because I was a reservist", or "When they found out I was a reservist they didn't hire me"?

Suppose the business community gets on board, how long until something happens to a reservist that was "forced" to deploy, and their family goes running to the media crying because their baby was murdered by the government?

Canada isn't America, Canada does not have the same culture WRT military service, and wishing it was so won't change that.

Edit: I'm not saying this because I'm proud Canada doesn't take the CAF seriously, whether Reg or Res, I'm simply pointing out that looking south and saying "they do it so why can't we" is a fairly pointless discussion on this particular subject.

I'm all with you on that and that's what I'm saying also but for the other way around. I do not said that we should be like the USA, not at all. I'm saying that it's there, not a lot knows about it and we advertise the opposite. Of course the company/business are not ready, the population doesn't even thinks it exist and on top of that, we are lying to ourself about it.

The answer are in the following questions; How many poeple really know and understand that part of the NDA? Why it is not more spread?

 

[FJAG]

It's not the GOFOs that won't use the NDA that way, it's the politicians who would be committing career suicide.

How much more is it career suicide if the need for using the reserves presents itself and you've basically created an organization that can't be used?

You're thought process is like the RegF attitude of "what good are you if you haven't done anything for me today?" There's a big difference to having a reserve force that you use all the time like Class B's as a mini RegF during peacetime. It's an entirely different thing to have a capable reserve force available to mobilize when a real need is there. Remember that using reservists compulsorily isn't like conscription. Reservists have already signed up to serve and trained for the eventuality.

We need to remember that Canada isn't America. The public has no appetite to read int he papers/online about reservists being forced to go overseas, and companies being forced to let their employees go away for 6-12 months at a time.

That's pure speculation. But even if true it doesn't answer the question of a circumstance where it becomes necessary to use military force. You make a very broad assumption that the time that you will need a military will never come. If that were true, if it was always a matter of choice, then why do we maintain a RegF at 25+ billion a year? There is absolutely no logic in maintaining the type of RegF we have if you cannot conceive of a time where we are compelled to mobilize a military force.

If Canada said "screw it, let's use the NDA", how long would it be before the forum was filled with "My company let me go because I was a reservist", or "When they found out I was a reservist they didn't hire me"?

It doesn't take a legislative drafting genius to come up with proper laws and incentives to minimize those situations. You'll never eliminate the issue because some employers are assholes, but with a proper scheme and information campaign the issue will be minimal. Hell, we've made paternity/maternity leave a going concern; how difficult is military service in a crisis?

Suppose the business community gets on board, how long until something happens to a reservist that was "forced" to deploy, and their family goes running to the media crying because their baby was murdered by the government?

Come on - let's get serious. We had reservists come home in body bags and seriously maimed from Afghanistan. Canadians stood on the bridges of the Highway of Heroes and mourned them as a nation; we didn't run to Parliament Hill and crucify the politicians.

Canada isn't America, Canada does not have the same culture WRT military service, and wishing it was so won't change that.

Your looking at a country that had 1.1 million people in uniform during WW2 out of a population of 11.8 million. Stop thinking we are all hippies who like to sing Kumbaya. We're talking about reservists who have volunteered to serve, not conscripts.

Edit: I'm not saying this because I'm proud Canada doesn't take the CAF seriously, whether Reg or Res, I'm simply pointing out that looking south and saying "they do it so why can't we" is a fairly pointless discussion on this particular subject.

What's pointless is sitting back and wringing your hands and saying we can't, we just can't. Although I admit that has a certain scent of Canadianism to it.

I know that @WLSC has put his finger on one of the main points with that anecdote about the CWO. Back in the day I gave numerous lectures to RegF and ResF on ResF terms of service and far too many of them were surprised at all the things that are in the NDA and QR&Os. There is an institutional ignorance and/or myth about what the obligations of a reservist are. That whole brief fling with respect to limited and unlimited service was a glaring example of that. If our own leaders don't understand it then the politicians will have no clue and will not even know what questions to ask.

We need to strive to be better than we are. Remember, politicians created the NDA the way it is - and the way it is is that you can mobilize the reserves - at any time.

 

[KevinB]

By the time that's a credible threat, the appetite will be there, but right now? There is none. Mobilizing the reserves to go sort out Haiti, or to put a speed bump in Latvia is not anywhere near similar to defending the homeland.

In WWI, WWII, Korea, and Afghanistan there were lots of volunteers. If Canada ends up at war with Russia or China, there will be lots of volunteers.

And no kit for them.
This isn’t 1940 you aren’t kicking out multiple aircraft and tanks a day.

 

[Furniture]

And no kit for them.
This isn’t 1940 you aren’t kicking out multiple aircraft and tanks a day.

100%, but the RegF that will be sent to die first doesn't have any kit either, so we'll all finally be one big happy dead CAF family.

 

[RangerRay]

Come on - let's get serious. We had reservists come home in body bags and seriously maimed from Afghanistan. Canadians stood on the bridges of the Highway of Heroes and mourned them as a nation; we didn't run to Parliament Hill and crucify the politicians.

I remember plenty of politicians getting crucified as “war mongers” any time a flag-draped coffin came home. And I remember plenty of people demanding that we pull out of Afghanistan ASAP. Because something something American oil imperialism blah bla blah.

 

[MilEME09]

I remember plenty of politicians getting crucified as “war mongers” any time a flag-draped coffin came home. And I remember plenty of people demanding that we pull out of Afghanistan ASAP. Because something something American oil imperialism blah bla blah.

some say peace at any price, luckily they do not speak for us all, but the world is getting worse, not better, and with the army needing upwards of 30% reserve augmentation for the foreseeable future, if any mission goes hot, we will see it potentially hit all parts of canada equally, not just reg force base communities.