Incentive Pay Category For Cadets Joining The CF

[PViddy]

Well, i'll use my head if you show better literary intent.  No, i don't know what you mean, any half wit can post on this board, and we all know the assumption is the mother of all....well you know.  Thanks for clarrification regarding your post.  please continue posting in the Cadet/CIC forum, your atttitude towards certain topics is a sure fire hit, i'm sure  :

warmest regards,

PV

 

[Michael OLeary]

Gentlemen, if you cannot post without insults, then please refrain from posting until you can.  A lilttle civility goes a long way to presenting a worthwhile example to the young Cadets who frequesnt this forum.

Thank you.

 

[Burrows]

Adding on to what Mr. O'Leary said, reiterating the same points and calling people names isn't going to look good.  Yes it can be hard to be sarcastic over the internet, that doesn't mean be condescending.

 

[Biggins]

Cadets receive incentives for prior training, though the policy doesn't state specifically what training. I think that should be changed. An example; if the cadet is trained as Marine Engineer and decides to go into the CF as a Marine Engineer then they should be given credit for allready having some of the skills and experience in their chosen trade. But if you have a cadet musician going into infantry then he/she gets the same as everyone else. How many 18 - 19 year old non-cadets have up 6 years of military type training.

Based on personal experience my training as a sea cadet made basic a bit easier, though I kept my mouth shut and did what I was told. The majority of my sea cadet skills came into play after BMQ when I went to fleet school to learn how to be in the Navy. Alot of what they teach at fleet school was covered in the various camps and exercises that I did as a cadet. At this point I took initiative and helped the people that didn't know what to do without being a cocky bastard. It's all in how you present yourself.

Is the incentive a good idea? As long as DND supports the cadet program then offering them an incentive to become a member of the CF is only logical. Should the incentive go to every cadet that meets the requirements of the policy? Nope, definately not. The incentive should be a reward for good service and performance. Thay is why the policy needs to be changed.

 

 

[Burrows]

Biggins, I assume that at one time you were a Naval Weapons Tech, and are now in the CIC.

Correct?

 

[Biggins]

yes!

 

[Biggins]

When you are at the recruiting centre, let them know exactly what you have done in the past.

And be able to prove it.  It is not the job of the recruiting centre to look for a record of your previous cadet service.

Quite the contrary. If you state on your enrollment forms what unit you belonged to and it's longer than say two years the recruiting center will send a letter to the unit requesting a copy of the relevant cadet docs. The unit should have at the minimum a copy of the folder that has your record of service/camps/and ranks acheived. The sea cadet SCC5 is all the recruiting center wants to see. I'm not sure what it is in Air or Army but that's all we send them when they request docs.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

Just in skimming over the previous years of posts and have the following points to add

Cadet time is pensionable (there is a discalimer to that, only 6 week courses/staff cadet employment counts)
2 While you may be granted up to 180 days towards and IPC, you will not be granted TCP (time credit for promotion) on enrollment, unless of course you were a CIC Offr, (a sub component of the primary reserve, ie a CF Mbr) in the same manner as a PRes mbr 1 for 1 class b/c 4 for 1 class a.

this is due largely to the fact that after WWII Canada signed a treaty saying we would not train children as soldiers, it requires extreme amounts of staff work getting waivers just to allow CIC Offrs to fire service weapons as delta trg during the recruiting process to entice them to transfer to the PRES or Reg Force

My 2 Cents

 

[geo]

Cadet time is pensionable?
would you have a reference?
Given that they have rewritten the pension act & created a Reserve force pension plan,  I have pored over it's details at length, I am confused.... did not see any provision for cadet service.  Where do you get your information from? 

Also, reserve force time is no longer  based on a 4 to 1 ratio.
If there is time that cannot be documented for some reason, it is 4 to 1 but, otherwise - class B & C is based on 1 for 1 and the class A time is based on 1 to 1.4

WRT CIC Officers - they may have a commission scroll that says they are a reserve force officer - but , don't try to parlay that into employment as a commissioned officer in the Reg or reserve force.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

Ir you'll read the post with a little more detail I'm not trying to say that the service of a CIC officer is that of a PRes or Regular officer only that TCP is granted as they are mbr's of the military, although not employed in a manner that may bring them into active service they are still mbrs of the CF, do not take that away from them. (and no I am not a CIC Offr). The info for buying back staff cadet time is outdated as I'll admit I havent fully read the new pension act, it doesn't affect me much (grandfathered on an i.e. 20) I'm curious to know when they changed the policy of 4 to 1 to 1.4 to 1 for TCP though and if its retroactive (may help from back in the 90's)

 

[geo]

.... sorry - should read twice and write once....

WRT reserve time on class A.  The new pension plan for reservists came into force on March 1st.
Class C & B is on a 1 for 1.  (Combat arms reservists on class C can component transfer in their current rank to the regs - ie, a Res WO can be a Reg WO after his tour)...

Serving reservists are eligible for the Pension buy back & they can buy back all their time - up to 35 yrs).
Those reservists who are out... unfortunately do not qualify... though reservists releasing in the last 18 months were, as a matter of course, transfered to the Supplementary reserve... allowing them to opt for the pension - prior to their ultimate release.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

now is the new reconing time calculation solely for the pension and buybacks or is it also linke to time credit for promotion (excluding the CBT Arms CT policy for Cl C Reservists)

 

[geo]

we're talking about pensionable service - did not say anything about time in rank and eligibility for promotion....

WRT rank - as I stated previously, combat arms reservists who serve Cl C service on operations in Afghanistan are entitled to a CT to the Regs in the rank they wore in Afghanistan.  If you serve in theatre as a WO IPC3, then you will CT to WO IPC3.  If you are deployed as a Cpl IPC2, then Cpl IPC2 for your CT.

 

[armyvern]

Cadet time is pensionable (there is a discalimer to that, only 6 week courses/staff cadet employment counts)
2 While you may be granted up to 180 days towards and IPC, you will not be granted TCP (time credit for promotion) on enrollment, unless of course you were a CIC Offr, (a sub component of the primary reserve, ie a CF Mbr) in the same manner as a PRes mbr 1 for 1 class b/c 4 for 1 class a.

That would be exactly the way it was when I joined the CF. At that time though, all 6 week staff positions counted, but I believe only certain 6 week courses qualified towards the IPC.

I was granted a full 180 days towards IPC, and zero TCP.

My courses were:

CLI at Argonaut;
Athletic Leadership at CFB Borden; and
Arctic Indoctrination at Valcartier/Baffin Island (with RegF members of the CAR as my instructors ~ I actually had to choose that year between the Arctic Indoc or the Basic Para, in any case I ended up seeing those maroon berets...and liking them!!).

I also served as PERI staff at Camp Argonaut.

 

[Neill McKay]

WRT CIC Officers - they may have a commission scroll that says they are a reserve force officer - but , don't try to parlay that into employment as a commissioned officer in the Reg or reserve force.

(Assuming your second reference to "reserve force" is intended to mean Primary Reserve.)

Where's the harm in trying?  If a person is doing a CT from CIC to something else then it only makes sense to take advantage of his service to date if there's an opportunity to under the applicable regulations -- wouldn't you say?

 

[geo]

The loopholes have pert much all been closed but, if you want to give it a shot... go ahead & fill your boots

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

keeping in mind all the IPC acceleration is doing is increasing the amount of time we pay someone as a Pte/4, we're not accelerating promotion based on previously gained military skills to give the mbr a leg up, simply paying them a wee bit more a wee bit sooner than thier peers, once they're all Cpl's it doesn't matter anymore they all get paid the same (basic rate of pay), aside from the CIC, who lets face are mbr's of the military (no discussion on the military quals) and if time can be reconed up to a maximun why not (we have to set a ceiling otherwise a 28 yo Captain with 10 years as a CIC would CT as a Sr Lt with no military skills)

 

[gwp]

keeping in mind all the IPC acceleration is doing is increasing the amount of time we pay someone as a Pte/4, we're not accelerating promotion based on previously gained military skills to give the mbr a leg up, simply paying them a wee bit more a wee bit sooner than thier peers, once they're all Cpl's it doesn't matter anymore they all get paid the same (basic rate of pay), aside from the CIC, who lets face are mbr's of the military (no discussion on the military quals) and if time can be reconed up to a maximun why not (we have to set a ceiling otherwise a 28 yo Captain with 10 years as a CIC would CT as a Sr Lt with no military skills)

When it comes to human resources the CF will do what is in the best interests of the CF. There are policies and procedures for component/sub-component transfer regardless of the component sub-component. Not with standing any bias created by the artificial pecking order that often colours this discussion.  ie. a 28 year old Capt with 10 years as CIC who is a medical doctor for example may be component transferred straight across.  That person will be trained to the required military skills that are not a requirement of the sub-component occupation.

http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/DAOD/5002/3_e.asp

There are hundreds of RegF personnel in what would be described as "non-combat arms" employment who have done their job domestically for several years and any currency in their basic military training has expired. That is why pre-deployment training is so important and as long as it is.

The moratorium that was placed on CF members of the CIC not being employed outside of the cadet organization was brought about when it was discovered that Primary Reserve Units were employing (and paying) the officers that supervised their affiliated cadet corps inappropriately.  (i.e. a person acting as an artillery spotter after a short briefing.) 

The authority to employ CF CIC officers outside of the Cadet Organization now rests with DGRC/DCdts on a case by case basis. It is approved for short term assignments when it makes sense, the cadet program will not be disadvantaged and the individual is currently employed with the CF and has the required skills/training.  For long term assignments a component transfer from the CIC to the PRes is encouraged the terms of which are negotiable iaw the reference above.

 

[Snakedoc]

• From CFAO 49-12 -- PROMOTION POLICY -OFFICERS -PRIMARY RESERVE
  ANNEX A -- MINIMUM QUALIFYING TIME IN RANK FOR ENTRY TO PROMOTION ZONE FOR NEXT HIGHER RANK
  
  2.             Qualifying time for entry to the promotion zone for the next higher rank is reckoned from the date of seniority in the present rank, except that:
  
  

  • cadets who have served a minimum of two years in the rank of warrant officer and above may be granted one year qualifying time in the rank of lieutenant for promotion to the rank of captain.

  
  Since there was a post recently on this topic again, I thought I'd revive this topic a bit to see if anyone know's the answers to a couple questions.  I've read the past year's post on this subject and someone once asked the question if the rank of warrant officer here is in reference to the army cadet rank and if so, what would be the equivalent air and sea cadet rank for the purpose of this policy.  I was wondering if anyone has found out the answer to this as I do not believe I saw a post in response to this question.
  
  In addition, for PRes officers to take advantage of this promotion policy, is there a specific application process (at enrollment or after enrollment?) or is it as long as you have your past cadet records in your pers file, this policy will be automatically applied?

 

[gwp]

• 
  Since there was a post recently on this topic again, I thought I'd revive this topic a bit to see if anyone know's the answers to a couple questions.  I've read the past year's post on this subject and someone once asked the question if the rank of warrant officer here is in reference to the army cadet rank and if so, what would be the equivalent air and sea cadet rank for the purpose of this policy.  I was wondering if anyone has found out the answer to this as I do not believe I saw a post in response to this question.

• 
  
  Yes - Cadet rank equivelancies apply.
  
  

  In addition, for PRes officers to take advantage of this promotion policy, is there a specific application process (at enrollment or after enrollment?) or is it as long as you have your past cadet records in your pers file, this policy will be automatically applied?

  
  The CFAO says "may".  Not likely automatic.  Accelerated promotion would still have to be recommended/justified by the CO and supported by proof of cadet service.     Check with your chain of command.  If you feel strongly that you deserve it you could probably formally question the decision.