Incentive Pay Category For Cadets Joining The CF
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OK, let's not keep repeating the same thing over and over. Everybody knows where some in this thread and I am looking for new ideas to debate, not the same 'o', same 'o' that has been carrying on for some time.
I go back to this:
I go back to this:
Scott said:
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geo said:
Geo, you're right as per the norm.....
I hate getting sucked into posting in the Cadet forum, but I really personally disagree with this policy..
Either way, as you said, it's not my place or yours, so I'll grit my teeth and soldier on....and probably ignore this thread for fear of getting torqued up again.
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Neill McKay said:
It is a good point - without knowing the intention it is difficult to fully discuss the topic. Then again, as long as we are aware of the unknowns...
Some have pointed out that - if the training received in cadets had direct military application you would be able to skip basic - or something similar.
But what about cadets who receive the jump course; shouldn't they receive at least a couple of week's credit?
Are there any other courses cadets take that have direct applications?
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Now that would require some heavy duty searching and someone (I am thinking CIC) with some contacts. I am curious to know.
Not to draw too many comparisons, because it is like apples and bowling balls, but PRes pers who do 180+ Class B days are Recruit School bypasses when going RegF, are they not? They were when I was in. Also, a few years back when I threw my hat in the ring for fun, they still credited my TI with the Mo - meaning I would have still skipped St Jean, that has all since changed, IIRC, with the new course structure. FWIW
Iterator, I did my 3's with a guy who had his Cadet jump wings. He was allowed to wear them on his uniform but that was the only thing he received that the rest of us did not.
But why give credit for certain courses? A kid who did an ATC course in Air Cadets going Army, should he get credit? Should he get credit if he goes ATC? Just as an example mind you...
A new can of worms.
Not to draw too many comparisons, because it is like apples and bowling balls, but PRes pers who do 180+ Class B days are Recruit School bypasses when going RegF, are they not? They were when I was in. Also, a few years back when I threw my hat in the ring for fun, they still credited my TI with the Mo - meaning I would have still skipped St Jean, that has all since changed, IIRC, with the new course structure. FWIW
Iterator, I did my 3's with a guy who had his Cadet jump wings. He was allowed to wear them on his uniform but that was the only thing he received that the rest of us did not.
But why give credit for certain courses? A kid who did an ATC course in Air Cadets going Army, should he get credit? Should he get credit if he goes ATC? Just as an example mind you...
A new can of worms.
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To some extent yes. I'm not sure about the direct CF application, but there are definitely some civilian applications.Iterator said:
For example, an air cadet can attain their civilian pilot's license, sea cadets can receive their radio operator's license, army cadets can receive their basic para wings.
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Interesting thread. Let me just say, that i can defiantely see both sides of the fence here but i think Mr. McKay had a good point. i think when you get down to the dollars and cents, the CF would probably still be the winner. Verbally hammer me Army.ca style if i am wrong, but isn't the point of the IPC increase because a fromer Cadet would be less of a burden on the training system, however miniscule? be it, already acustomed to a taste of military life, the 3 D's or by helping other recruits ? I mean yes, absolutley it has to do with what Squadron or Corps you come from, their are some usless ones simply said.
The Cadet program does teach a lot of Leadership, the orders process, map and compass, PT blah blah. Consequently, one of the aims of the Cadet movement is to "instill an interest in the [insert element] of the Canadian Forces, you have to think that Dcadets and the recruiting people have obviously talked about this to set this policy ?
Really, IMHO, i don't see the big deal about Cadets getting an increased IPC, i think a recruit with cadet experience is a better asset to his platoon and the CF. Yes, everybody get's taught the same, maybe it's outside of the classroom that counts, when the intructors are not there, that little shred of help, hint or advice.
Lastly, comparing Cadets to boy scouts is rediculous and are only similiar because both conduct training outdoors and that's speaking from direct experience.
My take on it, not gospel until we figure the exact reason as to why cadets get an IPC increase, i guess we can agree to disagree ?
cheers
PV
The Cadet program does teach a lot of Leadership, the orders process, map and compass, PT blah blah. Consequently, one of the aims of the Cadet movement is to "instill an interest in the [insert element] of the Canadian Forces, you have to think that Dcadets and the recruiting people have obviously talked about this to set this policy ?
Really, IMHO, i don't see the big deal about Cadets getting an increased IPC, i think a recruit with cadet experience is a better asset to his platoon and the CF. Yes, everybody get's taught the same, maybe it's outside of the classroom that counts, when the intructors are not there, that little shred of help, hint or advice.
Lastly, comparing Cadets to boy scouts is rediculous and are only similiar because both conduct training outdoors and that's speaking from direct experience.
My take on it, not gospel until we figure the exact reason as to why cadets get an IPC increase, i guess we can agree to disagree ?
cheers
PV
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Mr Viddy,
The main point of concern for me is why. And I still see no very good reasons posted here. However, I don't administer the program, someone smarter than me does, they must have their reasons. Hopefully they join the site and put an end to this.
I still think the increase should be earned no matter how small and I do not think that time + courses in Cadets is earning it. Time in the CF doing the job and proving yourself not to be a thud would be earning it in my eye. I am not about anyone getting anything for nothing. I was already a firefighter for a few years when I got hired full time, did I get an increase in pay over the other guys in my recruit class? Hell no. I got my first raise based on my contributions to the team, not because I had some TI and courses. Maybe it's a bad comparison but it's the only one I can draw.
Once again, I just want to see it justified and earned, not given away.
Missed that one earlier and I agree.
The main point of concern for me is why. And I still see no very good reasons posted here. However, I don't administer the program, someone smarter than me does, they must have their reasons. Hopefully they join the site and put an end to this.
I still think the increase should be earned no matter how small and I do not think that time + courses in Cadets is earning it. Time in the CF doing the job and proving yourself not to be a thud would be earning it in my eye. I am not about anyone getting anything for nothing. I was already a firefighter for a few years when I got hired full time, did I get an increase in pay over the other guys in my recruit class? Hell no. I got my first raise based on my contributions to the team, not because I had some TI and courses. Maybe it's a bad comparison but it's the only one I can draw.
Once again, I just want to see it justified and earned, not given away.
Neill McKay said:
Missed that one earlier and I agree.
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Of course, if we really wanted to, we could ask, if Cadets supposedly makes a better soldier, why is there no credit granted at RMC, or towards an officer rank? Why do cadets not get priority for placement at RMC? Why does their time only "count" in the enlisted ranks?
Answer: Because they bring nothing to the table that cannot be taught in a week or two at BOTC.
Answer: Because they bring nothing to the table that cannot be taught in a week or two at BOTC.
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Good point, GO!! Begs the question of someone like kincanucks though: Does it help on the RMC application? Would some of these 6 week courses they can take help? Example: An Air Cadet who has done ATC.
Not comparing an ATC summer camp to the trade course - Apples and Bowling Balls. Just asking if maybe a kid who had done this, had a good record, good marks, was altogether a suitable candidate for RMC, would they be given preference because of the experiences they got through Cadets?
GO!! does raise very interesting questions, I must say.
More cans, more worms.
Not comparing an ATC summer camp to the trade course - Apples and Bowling Balls. Just asking if maybe a kid who had done this, had a good record, good marks, was altogether a suitable candidate for RMC, would they be given preference because of the experiences they got through Cadets?
GO!! does raise very interesting questions, I must say.
More cans, more worms.
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Reading through this thread again has given me a new light on the subject.
I still think it is a good idea (probably because I am one of the individuals entitled to the bonus).
Maybe since there is so much controversy, the plan should be reviewed yb whichever higher ups make the rules. I believe there is already an incentive in place for cadets who progress on to become a CIC officer right away after they age out. Maybe leave that plan in place, since that is the portion of the CF that will benefit the most from a cadet who spent a few years in, since they already (typically) know the leadership and structure of a cadet unit.
I still think it is a good idea (probably because I am one of the individuals entitled to the bonus).
Maybe since there is so much controversy, the plan should be reviewed yb whichever higher ups make the rules. I believe there is already an incentive in place for cadets who progress on to become a CIC officer right away after they age out. Maybe leave that plan in place, since that is the portion of the CF that will benefit the most from a cadet who spent a few years in, since they already (typically) know the leadership and structure of a cadet unit.
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Piper said:
I've mentioned other things, but you keep ignoring them. It's not all about "job skills" and checking off EOs. It's about less tangible personal charcteristics, similar to how university teaches you more than the nuts and bolts of what's on the pages of your final exams.
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Piper said:
The Forces know about the cadet programme and in fact deliver it (and further, do so in a way that aims to emulate the Forces in many ways). Would you have a new directorate set up in NDHQ to evaluate every other youth programme in the country to assess the usefulness of its alumni to the Forces?
The powers that be think cadets are worth a special measure to attract as prospective CF members, or they believe that former cadets generally make better service members (or whatever the motive turns out to be) so they provide a modest financial bonus. Never have I seen Service members argue so presistently about some of their mates getting a bit of something extra in their pockets.
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Sig_Des said:
Well said! I found the real drill instructors (meaning the CF ones) were very professional and superior in their drill and in their instruction of drill. We actually had a guy who tried to tell the drill instructor that he was wrong about some drill movements. He was lazy and didn't want to do them so he tried to dilude the drills. The instructor was very persistent and the lazy man backed down.
Keep up the good work CF drill instructors! Don't let any student correct you!
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bbbb said:
'Cause nothing's better than an instructor who thinks he's infallible, right?
Drill instructors have the same capacity to make mistakes as everyone else. But there's a time and a place to bring it up, and that's outside of the class (and privately), not during the class. The drill manual even goes as far as to provide that bit of direction.
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