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Ignorant Civies

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appletreecdn said:
First thing...MedTech I would not solute you since I'm not in the military but in place of it you have my respect.  Let's just say it's a head-bow to show my respect.

Neil, it's a very very very bad example to use as an illustration.  I'm not criticising you nor am I your opinions.  BUT but but.....I can't help myself and certainly others that you have put yourself up for perhaps a barage of what you may view and feel as crap.  The Oct Crisis is everything but just not what you say it is.  At the time, the mood in Quebec was so confrontational and chaotic and terrorism was indeed happening.  Mail boxes (government property) were exploding and for Christ's sake people were kidnapped and murdered!  It's really not much different than those islamic militants. 

And what does that have anything to do with what you have to say?  Not too sure if you are familiar with the Cultural Revolution and many other political movement in China in the 60's and early 70's.  You can find proofs that your arguement that because soldiers can take away your rights (assuming they really can) when the civilian government instructs them so that they are not protector your rights at all time is not valid.  Back then in China, they didn't even need the military to prosecute and take away people's rights, it was all done by playing mind games among the civilians!  So following your logic, are civilian not protector of their own rights?  Does what I say even make anymore sense now?  No, because the nature of such an arguement is that it's a fallacy!

And like you said...'only when government instructs them to be' then they don't take away anybody's rights, do they?  The government does.  In this case, soldiers are just the tool!  Remember the gun control debate?  Similiar logic. 

Just a generalization....the military/soldiers are the protector of my rights at all time so are the police officers, human rights lawyers among many others.  If they (soldiers) are not among the protectors of my rights at all time then please enlighten me who are?

You are agreeing with everything I said.  I never said that soldiers take away rights.  I said that they are not always the defenders of our rights.  Regardless of the context of the October crisis, this is an example when the government chose to curtail civil liberties and used the military as a means to do that.  I didn't say that people were for or against.  If your house was ransacked by soldiers you were probably against it.  If you worked for the Government you were probably for it.  It was an example of the fact that soldiers may not always have your personal freedoms in mind as is often promoted on this site. 

Police officers don't protect our rights, courts do.  The courts decide if the police have infringed on your rights.  If they have, you will be set free even if the evidence points toward your guilt.    Courts protect our rights from internal threats.  One of my main points was that there just aren't that many external threats to our freedoms these days.  That doesn't mean I'm saying that there never was or never will be again, but right now there aren't.  Some will say terrorism is.  But really our military involvement in a war against Islamic terrorism doesn't do much to improve our safety.  It does help the Afghan people and nation tremendously, but it is debatable whether or not it has made Canada safer.    People here have called me self -righteous.  There isn't much more self-righteous than telling people that you are the only thing protecting them from all the harm that is closing in on them from the outside.  We need to be prepared for threats but also appreciate the reality that Canada is pretty safe from the attacks that we are prepared to defend against via NORAD and NATO, but not from the ones we are not as prepared to defend against and may be agitating by military involvement in Afghanistan, Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorism.
 
If your house was ransacked by soldiers you were probably against it.

Can you show 1 documented case of this?
 
neilinkorea said:
You are agreeing with everything I said.  I never said that soldiers take away rights.  I said that they are not always the defenders of our rights.

I don't know about you, but if there was a terrorist insurgency in my hometown (Hamilton), I would be happy to have the authorities, police or military, search my home to help safeguard my personal health and that of those around me. Hell, I'd probably be at work or in school at the time.

In the context of the October crisis, the rights of the citizens to privacy was superseded by their right to safety from physical harm. Yes, the military was there taking away that privacy and freedome of movement, but they were also there protecting them from terrorism and anarchy.

Not every right can always be realized at the same time, but the military is ALWAYS there to defend our rights!
 
Love793 said:
If your house was ransacked by soldiers you were probably against it.

Can you show 1 documented case of this?

No.  Can you show any against it?  Soldiers were brought in to help the police.  I am assuming that could have entailed help with searching the homes, or being present while police searched the homes, of "high risk" targets.  No so far outside the realm of possibility.
There is an IF in that sentence.  I never said that they did.  Maybe ransack is a harsh term, but that is the way I would view it if the authorities went through my home.
 
neilinkorea said:
You are agreeing with everything I said.  I never said that soldiers take away rights.  I said that they are not always the defenders of our rights.  Regardless of the context of the October crisis, this is an example when the government chose to curtail civil liberties and used the military as a means to do that.  I didn't say that people were for or against.  If your house was ransacked by soldiers you were probably against it.  If you worked for the Government you were probably for it.  It was an example of the fact that soldiers may not always have your personal freedoms in mind as is often promoted on this site. 

Given when the October Crisis happened, were you even born then? Many here were not only alive then, but involved. Perhaps you should go on recieve, instead of send. If you were a sperm or ovum then, you have no idea what was happening. The FLQ was no different than what Tommy Taliban is doing now anywhere else.

Spend some time travelling the world. You'll get a true idea about how liberal our rights in Canada are. and why.

We didn't get this way by being milquetoast, placard waving student activists.
 
neilinkorea said:
No.  Can you show any against it?  Soldiers were brought in to help the police.  I am assuming that could have entailed help with searching the homes, or being present while police searched the homes, of "high risk" targets.  No so far outside the realm of possibility.
There is an IF in that sentence.  I never said that they did.  Maybe ransack is a harsh term, but that is the way I would view it if the authorities went through my home.

We have a rule here. You make an accusation, you provide the proof. You can't start an argument and defend it by asking the defender for proof. The onus is on the accuser.......that's you.

Ante up, otherwise you're trolling, and that will get you punted from here.

I'm the only Mod on, and I have very little patience right now. Especially with students having nothing else to do on Spring Break.
 
neilinkorea said:
You are agreeing with everything I said.  I never said that soldiers take away rights.  I said that they are not always the defenders of our rights.  Regardless of the context of the October crisis, this is an example when the government chose to curtail civil liberties and used the military as a means to do that.  I didn't say that people were for or against.  If your house was ransacked by soldiers you were probably against it.  If you worked for the Government you were probably for it.  It was an example of the fact that soldiers may not always have your personal freedoms in mind as is often promoted on this site. 

Neil...you still don't get it, do you?  

No I don't agree with what you have posted.  Not all of them, some.  We are talking about the CF here in the context of Canada.  If you are talking about individual soldiers.....what do they have to do with proving your points.  It certainly isn't an individual soldier's business for my personal well being.  He/she is to follow good orders throught the chain of command which ultimately ends in the hands of the civilian government hence in civilians' hands.  As a collective, and in the context of Canada, they have only been the protector of people's rights all through out at all times.  All through out Canada's history, Canada's military has only been playing the role of defender and protector and they have even been asked to sacrifice their family and even life to achieve such an objective.  So isn't it justified to give them the recognition that they are indeed the protector of our rights at all time until they cease to do so?

Just as a side note, for some Chinese Canadians and Japanese Canadians, it was through their service in the military during times of conflict that eventually earned them the right to be treated as Canadians.  And today's Canada is strongly shaped and influenced by its war efforts in conflicts past and present.  In a few words, my and certainly your rights' cost certainly includes the blood of those in uniform.  

My house has not been ransacked by soldiers.
 
Lumber said:
I don't know about you, but if there was a terrorist insurgency in my hometown (Hamilton), I would be happy to have the authorities, police or military, search my home to help safeguard my personal health and that of those around me. Hell, I'd probably be at work or in school at the time.

In the context of the October crisis, the rights of the citizens to privacy was superseded by their right to safety from physical harm. Yes, the military was there taking away that privacy and freedome of movement, but they were also there protecting them from terrorism and anarchy.

Not every right can always be realized at the same time, but the military is ALWAYS there to defend our rights!

The military took NO rights away. The Military simply reacted and obeyed the orders given by the Trudeau Liberal government. He, and they, were the ones that supended the rights and imposed the War Measures Act. Not the military, which is nothing more than a government tool. The whole thing was Trudeau and the Liberals.
 
recceguy said:
The military took NO rights away. The Military simply reacted and obeyed the orders given by the Trudeau Liberal government. He, and they, were the ones that supended  the rights and imposed the War measures Act. Not he military, which is nothing more than a government tool. The whole thing was Trudeau and the Liberals.

UGH! I hate semantics. You know what I meant.
 
appletreecdn said:
My house has not been ransacked by soldiers but even if it were it would have been by thieves who happen to be soldiers.  

WTF are you talking about. Please explain this idiotic statement.
 
Lumber said:
UGH! I hate semantics. You know what I meant.
Perception is reality. We're being inundated by dweebs that will profess your words as that of the messiah. As an up and coming, you'll find your very career will hinge on words you've spoken years before. Be careful. ;)
 
recceguy said:
Perception is reality. We're being inundated by dweebs that will profess your words as that of the messiah. As an up and coming, you'll find your very career will hinge on words you've spoken years before. Be careful. ;)

Aye, Capt'n!  :salute:
:)
 
recceguy said:
WTF are you talking about. Please explain this idiotic statement.

Hmmmmm.....that is indeed rather perplexing and has been edited.
 
What a great thread....very lurk friendly.

Still, I have a few things to add.

Neil....good on you for debating against so many people on such an emotionally charged subject.  Hell, I'd even go so far as to say some of your comments have a degree of merit.  You are right that a military is not the granter or great protector of rights (can you see the blood start boiling here)...examples are everywhere of the opposite of this (say, Argentina during the "dirty war" for example).  Society as a whole through various social contracts and social institutions provides the rights, and the rule of law protects and manages them...simply speaking.  Having said that, lets look at what a military in a democracy is, shall we;

The military (in our case, the CF) is the physical force behind the government....the "muscle" if you will.  The CF represents the extension of the government to use force to protect or insist itself on a situation.

The government is the representation of the will of society as a whole (not just the vocal minority).  Thus, by extension the CF represents the will of society to induce force to, well, get it's point across.

Society, as such, wishes to protect it's rights/freedoms/sovereignty.  When society has it's sovereignty challenged, be it territorial or otherwise, it has the option to use many different avenues to solve it's issue.  One of the biggest is of course diplomacy.  This is where the CF becomes the protector of your rights, so pay attention.  The CF acts, metaphorically, as the strong man guy standing behind the diplomat...the threat of violence (along with NATO) that adds strength to the diplomats voice (of course along with other strengths such as economics and whatnot).  If diplomacy fails, and Canadian society (through the Government) deems the issue threatening enough to the sovereignty of the nation, it employs the CF...the force.  In essence, the CF is the might that makes the people right. 

This is why, say, Evilistan one day decides to annex Vancouver because, well, it's sick of the way we let our women drive cars.  Ottawa can make all the "women can do what they want" laws it wants, but unless there's a CF that marches in and tells the soldiers of Evilstan to bugger off, those laws do no good.  Take it a step further....Evilstan doesn't invade, but instead finances and encourages a proxy group to effect it's will in Vancouver (hmmm....state-sponsored terrorism/proxy wars).  Sure, you fight the insurgency, but the insurgency keeps coming...eliciting its own law and judgment almost vigilante style against the populous (sort of how the Taliban currently behave).  The government and thus society has lost control over it's own sovereign right to determine the rights of it's citizens....what's it to do?  Write a new constitution?  Whine internationally that it's getting treated "unfairly"?  No, it gets fed up and utilizes it's "muscle" by hitting back against Evilstan.

Because of this usage, the CF is in fact the final line of defense for the rights and privileges of the citizenry.

The ignorance pisses people off for two reasons....they are intrinsically linked to the will of the Government which is supposed to be the will of the people.  When the populous refuses to take a role in understanding it's government and its actions, it makes the members angry at the refusal of that person to self educate about their own society.  For example:

IC: "you're in the army....think you'll ever have to go to Iraq?"
Army guy: "Ummm....Canada isn't in Iraq"

Army guy thinking 'do you ever watch the news?  Do you have any idea what your government is up to? 

Sure it's that citizens prerogative to choose ignorance, but it's still annoying seeing the lack of involvement and willful ignorance.

Further...when that ignorance manifests itself in unsolicited and wholly unsupportable opinion being thrust upon a member, it really gets to some members nerves.  When attempts to educate (yes, educate....people should understand what it is their government is up to) fall on deaf ears and the ignorance continues to be offered, it's highly offensive.  This would be true of any single profession that found itself the target.  I'm sure police for instance get sick of hearing punk kids calling them "pigs"...an unsolicited, ignorant view directed towards the police.  This thread is a manifestation of exactly the same thing.

I hope all this made sense.

 
hauger,

Made sense?  You should be teaching social studies in high school or something.  This is something you should submit to a paper.  Even I understood it...and that's saying something.  ;D
 
Excuse me but I'll put this in language that Neil can understand:
You have no right to compare the CF to the "militaries" of nations such as Argentina. The "armies" of such nations were meant to supress there own citizens, not fight a foreign power.
The CF is not empowered to supress the citizens, nor should an army be supressing its citizens.

I guess sitting in Korea has had an effect on your perspective.
 
First thing to say: the title of this thread would come across as offensive to a civilian browsing the site even though we army people know i only refers to that one in the crowd who makes the stupid remark.

Second thing: Neil! I saw the flak you are getting and looked back through all your posts. When people join an organization like the police or the army it is very easy to dissassociate yourself from the people you're "sworn" to protect. As such a different attitude develops towards the "sheep" so to speak. (Reference: sheepdog vs. wolf vs. sheep analogy). That attitude rears its ugly head a lot on this website with the "Walk a mile in my boots" posts. My advice to you, as I would advise anyone who starts getting flak here, is just cease and desist because you won't win. Your posts are well grounded and make sense. I agree that anyone who posts anything on this site that disagrees with one of the directing staff usually gets pounced on. And not in a counterargument either, but rather a personal attack that directly represents the different prevailing attitude among our members. Personally I refrain from posting in argumentative threads because of this exact reason.

Third Item: I would encourage people on this site, both military and civilian, to engage in real discussion and argument. Don't dismiss people because they aren't in the military. None of Neil's posts were attacks or flames and were all articulate. Members of this site resorted to attacks and flames because they disagree with them or misunderstood his argument. Directing Staff: as moderators you guys need to step back a bit and look at what your posting. Personally I've lost respect for a fair number of people on this site who take the "holier than thou" trump to winning an argument. Seriously? A lot of you can talk some serious shop and I respect that but that ain't all there is to it.
 
  Where to begin? As a civilian I am pro military and very appreciative of the efforts and sacrifices of our men and women in the CF. And also of their families. I  am certainly not going to defend ignorant civies and their remarks, although I think they are in the minority. I have also seen remarks on here that I would consider as ignorant coming from the military side. I believe there are far more Canadians like the ones that line the highway in Ontario showing their respect, than there are UVic antimilitary A holes. However, saying that the military is the reason Canada exists is doing a disservice to countless thousands of civilians who have worked just as hard and sacrificed just as much as anyone in the military. The men of the merchant marine as an example.  I  don't think it should be an us vs them.  I think part of the problem is that the military, for the most part is out of sight, out of mind. I've spent most of my 50 plus years living on the lower mainland of B.C. and other than watching the Snowbirds at Abbotsford I have had no experience with anyone in uniform. And that includes playing soccer games right on the Aldergrove naval station. I feel that Gen Hillier and shows like Truth Duty Valour and Jetsteam are doing an excellent job in getting more exposure for the military. Theres not just a war in Afghanistan that the military has to win, but also one of public relations. And the more people see what good work the military does not just around the world but here at home too, then I think you will see less of the " ignorant civie" One more thing I have family serving in the US army, and he has been to Iraq twice and to say they only want to kill people is really reprehensible.  :cdn:           
 
hauger, you've conveyed some of what I was trying to say except you have done a much better job.  Succinct and eloquent.  :)

"I guess sitting in Korea has had an effect on your perspective." - I think us civilians are just as suceptible to ignorant comments as those in uniform.

"I would encourage people on this site, both military and civilian, to engage in real discussion and argument. Don't dismiss people because they aren't in the military." - hear hear.

"Theres not just a war in Afghanistan that the military has to win, but also one of public relations." Yeah...no kidding...I certainly don't want to be called blood thirst monster just because I support the CF.  ;)

BTW, for my own education's sake, what if I encounter some military personnel lobbing ignorant and racist comments at me?
 
MedTech said:
neilinkorea,

I find it very telling that you, as a civilian believes that he knows everything about those who serves this country. I have a very centric view, surprise, surprise! I serve in the military, and in case you haven't noticed this is a forum where many military members congregate to speak and chat amongst ourselves. Have you wondered why we do so here? Why there are so many forums like these exist for many militaries around the world? I will tell you why, because of the civilian population.

You read that correctly, because of the civilian population. You are the prefect example of what I mean. You along with a few other that have already posted in this thread have proven time and time again why WE, those of us who decide to take up arms, and stand sentry for the safety of this country do not like to mingle with many of the public.

Civilians have never understood the toll of being a service member. Countless times in countless militaries where the soldiers go forth and serve in areas of operation to defend the country's welfare, its foreign policies and its interests. You want to talk about how all the other people have contributed, and how its the civilians that holds power over the Constitution and without Civilians it would have never existed?

Here are some examples of why I think you completely out of her. Without the military, albeit the British Army along with Canadian Militia during the war of 1812, there would be no Canada because we would merely be a few more states to the United States of America. Where would your civilian bureaucrats and politicians be then? Where would this Charter and Constitution be? That's right NON existent.

During the WWI the War to End All Wars, if not for Canadian efforts, France would be lost forever, along with and possibly England. Without a base of operations close to Europe or any launching point close enough to the UK without telegraphing our presence of an invasion fleet, how could we possibly have recaptured and defeated the German/Austrian military? That's right we would have a damn hard time. Where would we repatriate our Constitution from if the UK was lost?

During WWII once again without Canadian efforts, you think the landing on DDay would have been successful? You think that Canada would not have been a target once The Third Reich had established power? You think the Japanese would not have attempted an attack on Canada? No military you say? Where would your precious Constitution be then? Where would your Charter be? Answer me that!

Need any more examples? Every major conflict, every single operation that Canadians participated in prior to Confederation, The Constitution Repatriation, and now all have been built on the spilt blood of the soldiers and militiamen. Without those men whose bodies littered the battle fields of old, YOU sir, would have been able to post as you do today, on a forum whose purpose is to serve the members of the Canadian Military, current, past and future.

You would like to speak of Education do you?! The education system of today is deplorable. I think history is extremely important yet the caliber of the instructors are laughable, and if not down right criminal. The high school students of today cannot name one major Canadian victory during WWII, although YOU may not think it's important, but many of those campaigns helped SHAPE how we were viewed ARE viewed in the World stage today.

Self-righteous you say?! How many of the people you have listed would drop everything on a dime, and march to the government's orders to go and defend your rights? A policeman? No, because they are essential service. Don't get me wrong, I respect them, I have many friends who are members, but they have a different function and even if they are members of the CF, their jobs would preclude them from serving in such a capacity at the beginning. A Doctor? No, because those of us who serve and work in the Health Services know that we're short on doctors in the Forces, why? Because not many can take the job of being a military physician.  Don't even get me going on social workers.... You think that because social workers exist that all things are peachy and dandy in this society? Let me re-iterate this again in case you missed it the first time. NONE of these occupations as you so know it, and are so quick to point out, WOULD EXIST AS YOU KNOW if it had NOT been the efforts of the fighting men and women of our military.

You want to talk about soldiers taking rights away? You obviously have not experienced a totalitarian state such as Pakistan, Any middle eastern country and many African ones. Your name say you're in Korea, I'm assuming that's South so the ROK right? Not North PRNK? Because if you were in the North you'd understand that you have it good here in Canada, where the soldiers defend the constitutional right of every single citizen and resident. Mine and most certainly YOURs.

You want to talk about the October Crisis? From that point right there it just OOOOZES ignorance. You know WHY the October Crisis was brought about? You know WHY the War Measures Act was brought about? The seriousness of the situation at that point in time required a serious action. A time where chaos was around every corner because, oh hold on, that's right TERRORISM was IN OUR HOMES, not on our door steps as it is now, but happening right here, right now. You think the police force could have handled patrolling the streets with limited man power? No. Not possible. Not with the limited resources at their disposal at the time. Obviously you would rather that the military NOT have been mobilized and the situation just carry on as usual. Give me a break.

It is not a myth that the soldier is the provider of every privilege, right and benefit that every Canadians enjoy even ourselves. We will bleed, be injured and even die to defend those rights, privilege and benefit that YOU and every other civilian so enjoy. Because I don't see a Social Worker in Afghanistan fighting do you? I don't see a Carpenter in Afghanistan fighting do you? I don't see an Accountant in Afghanistan fighting do YOU?! I don't see a TEACHER, a BUS DRIVER, a COMPUTER PROGRAMMER OVER THERE FIGHTING DO YOU?! If those people are there right now it is because they are part of the CF contingent that is over there. They are soldiers, servicemen and women and identify as such. Every soldier that is lost is a loss to our family. OUR FAMILY. A Family that is not welcomed in most of society because of this misguided concept YOU civilians have. No matter what we do to try and educate you, no matter what we do to help you understand, YOU the IGNORANT civilian just DOES NOT UNDERSTAND.

You believe EVERY SINGLE WORD the MSM has to say, but you doubt the words of a serving member. Why? Because you were taught to think critically through the internet, through university and through our society?! You along with many others who believe they know what is or is not in terms of the military and in terms of our sacrifice has no clue. You have something that's called the Ivory Tower syndrome. You along with many academics who believe they know just WTF is going on is doing so from afar. You think a Degree will allow you to grasp, to understand to comprehend the life of a soldier or a servicemen or women, whether it's RegF or PRes does not give you a CLUE. Even if you lived a month amongst us, it is only a month. You then return to your comfortable surroundings and never have to deal with the sand, the hardship, the constant ridicule by the public again. Yet we endure this everyday. We endure it and we carry on, and we serve proudly, and honorably in our uniforms. Uniforms that represent Canadians, YOU and ME and HER and HIM and THEM, all over the world. We are the ones that make the Maple Leaf SHINE, we are the ones that lend that helping hand when disaster strikes.

Do you?




Really?! Have you spoken to a dentist or a nurse or a doc when they get off work? They whine. They whine more then you know. You hear a lawyer whine? You know what this place is? It's a community for serving member to relax and exchange ideas without being prejudiced against by the public. Where retired members stay in touch and where prospective members seek information. You bet not everyone knows the structures of a provincial education department, but do people speak poorly about teachers? Do people have negative preconceptions about teachers? Do people call teachers brain washers, hypocrites or publicly denounce them? When was the last time people protested against teachers for what they were teaching or how they were teaching? When was the last time you see someone move away from a teacher on a bus because they were sitting there? Well it happens allot to soldiers. All of the above happens allot to soldiers. Your pipe fitter analogy, fine we'll use a pipe fitter, so does any of the above happen to him/her? NO. Whining? Fine, we'll call it whining. Why don't we call it systemic profiling and discrimination by the Canadian public? You, as a civilian come to a military site where military personnel congregate to share their thoughts and YOU want to complain that WE are whining?

Get out. Go ahead. I don't care. Because you are just like every other ignorant Canadian I have ever met. I can't talk to someone like you. Someone who believes that they know what a soldier's place in society is. Someone who believes that they know how things are by reading MSM, watching movies and television.

Get out. Go ahead. You have come here to argue against us. We have never invited you here. We have not encouraged you to stay. We have defended ourselves as we do constantly in the eyes of the public, and who you represent the portion and the majority of the public that many of us detest and have given up trying to educate.

You want a fact? Here's a fact.

There is no job like the military. There is none. There hasn't been since the beginning of the first organized bodies whose only job is to defend the tribe from outside conflict. This is a job where we put up with sacrifices other are too sacred, too cowardly, too unwilling or too disgusted to do. There are things that bump you in the dead of night and we are the ones that bump back. We are it. The first and last line of defence of Canadian beliefs, foreign policies, trade policies and vision. We are your brothers, sisters, sons, daughters, cousins, mothers, fathers, grandmothers and grandfathers. WE ARE WHO WE ARE, WE ARE CANADIAN JUST LIKE YOU.

The only difference is, we have long ago accepted who we are and what we do. It's time you did too.



It seems to me you shouldn't be in the military if you get this angry over simple words on the internet....

You chose to help your country by joining the military.

I chose to help my country, by starting my own business and contributing that way.  Who do you think pays your wages anyway?  Taxpayers?

Everyone that lives in Canada and isn't on welfare is contributing.... I'm third generation Canadian and I love my country, I would die for it if someone invaded us or something hit close to home...but ...in reality I can't help everyone, and everyone isn't going to join the army.

Why can't we all just get along and you can be the bigger man since you have been through so much training and have so much discipline....and maybe...just maybe offer wisdom to us ignorant civies?
 
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