Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[Eaglelord17]

My point is simply if they go too far they will lose support. Long term that will not be good for them. They need friends, they don’t have the resources or population to survive without them.

South Africa was a excellent counterbalance to the communists and other destabilizing elements in Africa (kinda like how Israel is a counterbalance to Iran), eventually the general public had enough though and the taps were cut off, eventually leading to a regime change.

Realpolitik is important but it can only get so far when dealing with a democracy. The general public tends to demand a certain ethical standard. They generally don’t pay much attention to the world so we can get away with supporting some not so good people for good reasons, but the farther Israel drifts from that standard the harder it is to align policy with supporting them.

The modern era makes it very easy to expose the ugly acts being committed. It’s up to Israel to demand better from itself.

Remember South Africa was a nuclear state as well, it didn’t stop there regime from ending.

We should not judge others till we have walked a mile in their shoes. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone here has walked an inch in their shoes.
Many of you have seen combat, and awful shit. However you did so as part of a country that is relatively safe. Backed up by the U.S. and other very capable allies. Without having to worry about family back home having rockets fall on them.
Isreal is surrounded by millions of people, many of whom have sworn to destroy them. Including the Palestinians. Israeli soldiers are the ones tasked to prevent that. In WWII the allied soldiers were welcomed by the civilians they were liberating. These guys dont have that luxury.
Over the last 11 months they have likely been worked pretty hard and they are still in the firing line even when on leave. I imagine they are scared, exhausted and angry. Put anyone in those circumstances and they will crack. I know I sure couldn't do it and remain a gentleman.

At the end of the day they do not need to be there. They choose to live there, most of them came there in the last 70 years. They can leave at any point, the locals (Palestinians) cannot.

If anything they are doing a injustice to their families by keeping them in danger.

 

[Good2Golf]

South Africa was a excellent counterbalance to the communists and other destabilizing elements in Africa (kinda like how Israel is a counterbalance to Iran), eventually the general public had enough though and the taps were cut off, eventually leading to a regime change.

The rest of Africa didn’t want South Africa obliterated.

 

[Quirky]

At the end of the day they do not need to be there. They choose to live there, most of them came there in the last 70 years. They can leave at any point, the locals (Palestinians) cannot.

The middle east is a large area, plenty of places to live...

 

[KevinB]

Remember South Africa was a nuclear state as well, it didn’t stop there regime from ending.

South Africa didn’t have Nuclear Weapons by the time it was clear that the end was near and the regime sought a peaceful transition.

And as @Good2Golf very aptly points out.

The rest of Africa didn’t want South Africa obliterated.

Now as to @Eaglelord17 ’s comments about the Israeli’s leaving, I’m honestly not sure if that was a troll post or what.
The entire reason Israel exists today is due to the shame that the West felt for how the Jewish were treated. With no home state of the Jewish religion the genocidal efforts of Hitlers German resulted in the World given them a country of their own. Unlike the Muslim and Christian’s who where living in the Palestinian land people the, the Israelis had no other nation to go to.

 

[Edward Campbell]

South Africa didn’t have Nuclear Weapons by the time it was clear that the end was near and the regime sought a peaceful transition.

And as @Good2Golf very aptly points out.



Now as to @Eaglelord17 ’s comments about the Israeli’s leaving, I’m honestly not sure if that was a troll post or what.
The entire reason Israel exists today is due to ... the genocidal efforts of Hitlers German (which) resulted in the Jews buying land and then fighting for a country of their own. Unlike the Muslim and Christian’s who where living in the Palestinian land people the, the Israelis had no other nation to go to.

My take

The Jews began buying land in Palestine in the late 19th century (using money from e.g. the Rothschilds); they bought it from the rich Arab landlords, the very people who then stirred up hatred against them in the 1920s and '30. They, modern Zionists, increased their purchases after the Balfour Declaration. In the 1940s the Jews fought, in the British Army, against the Germans, especially in Italy; many Arab leaders were Nazis ... not just Nazi sympathizers, real, honest-to-god Nazis. In the 1940s the Jews asked for and most of the world agreed that they should have their own land - not much, just a small share of Mandatory Palestine. the Arabs went to war; the Jews fought back and won; outcome:

 

[SeaKingTacco]

My take

The Jews began buying land in Palestine in the late 19th century (using money from e.g. the Rothschilds); they bought it from the rich Arab landlords, the very people who then stirred up hatred against them in the 1920s and '30. They, modern Zionists, increased their purchases after the Balfour Declaration. In the 1940s the Jews fought, in the British Army, against the Germans, especially in Italy; many Arab leaders were Nazis ... not just Nazi sympathizers, real, honest-to-god Nazis. In the 1940s the Jews asked for and most of the world agreed that they should have their own land - not much, just a small share of Mandatory Palestine. the Arabs went to war; the Jews fought back and won; outcome:

What Edward posted is often the most misunderstood point- the Jews bought almost all of the land of proto-Israel from Arabs- they did not steal anything. And there were jews living in the area since antiquity- they did not all come from Europe after WW2. While it is true that they fought a (sometime bloody) insurgency against British Forces to get them to leave (and achieve statehood), once it became clear to the Arabs that the British would be out and a Jewish State would exist, they invaded in 1948. Had Israel not won, there is no doubt in my mind that the Arab forces would have slaughtered every man, woman and child. But, the Israelis did win and took more land as a result.

 

[daftandbarmy]

What Edward posted is often the most misunderstood point- the Jews bought almost all of the land of proto-Israel from Arabs- they did not steal anything. And there were jews living in the area since antiquity- they did not all come from Europe after WW2. While it is true that they fought a (sometime bloody) insurgency against British Forces to get them to leave (and achieve statehood), once it became clear to the Arabs that the British would be out and a Jewish State would exist, they invaded in 1948. Had Israel not won, there is no doubt in my mind that the Arab forces would have slaughtered every man, woman and child. But, the Israelis did win and took more land as a result.

Yup.

And Canadian booze empires/ rum runners, like Bronfman and Seagram, sent alot of money there to help with the purchases and fuel the Zionist movement ...

Jewish land purchase in Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bronfman family - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What Edward posted is often the most misunderstood point- the Jews bought almost all of the land of proto-Israel from Arabs- they did not steal anything. And there were jews living in the area since antiquity- they did not all come from Europe after WW2. While it is true that they fought a (sometime bloody) insurgency against British Forces to get them to leave (and achieve statehood), once it became clear to the Arabs that the British would be out and a Jewish State would exist, they invaded in 1948. Had Israel not won, there is no doubt in my mind that the Arab forces would have slaughtered every man, woman and child. But, the Israelis did win and took more land as a result.

To be fair the Egyptian Army in 1948 was professional and was recorded saving settlers from Arab Mobs and generally acting properly in the conflict.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

To be fair the Egyptian Army in 1948 was professional and was recorded saving settlers from Arab Mobs and generally acting properly in the conflict.

Good point. Thank-you for the correction.

 

[brihard]

To be fair the Egyptian Army in 1948 was professional and was recorded saving settlers from Arab Mobs and generally acting properly in the conflict.

I imagine the Egyptians probably had a decent leavening of British trained officers?

 

[Eaglelord17]

South Africa didn’t have Nuclear Weapons by the time it was clear that the end was near and the regime sought a peaceful transition.

And as @Good2Golf very aptly points out.



Now as to @Eaglelord17 ’s comments about the Israeli’s leaving, I’m honestly not sure if that was a troll post or what.
The entire reason Israel exists today is due to the shame that the West felt for how the Jewish were treated. With no home state of the Jewish religion the genocidal efforts of Hitlers German resulted in the World given them a country of their own. Unlike the Muslim and Christian’s who where living in the Palestinian land people the, the Israelis had no other nation to go to.

Ahh yes, the making a nation by offering someone elses land. Very generous of the west to offer someone elses home up. Maybe they should have given Bavaria, Saxony or Prussia instead.

The Israelis had plenty of options post-WWII, they may not have wanted to go back to Germany or Poland (etc.) but it was a option, and still is. It isn’t a option for the Palestinians.

I don’t want Israel to seize to exist, I also don’t want them to keep expanding and continue to push the same type of horrors on the Palestinians that they went through themselves. They need to start actually working to resolve the issues instead of inflaming them.

The rest of Africa didn’t want South Africa obliterated.

‘Kill the farmer, kill the Boer’ is that not a rallying cry in South Africa? Not saying I agree with it, just saying that there is definitely those who would gladly have killed the whites in South Africa (much like the situation in Rhodesia).

You have to remember what came first the hatred of the Jews, or the expansionist Israelis? Generally it seems the hatred followed Israel’s creation and the displacement/killing of Palestinians.

 

[Good2Golf]

‘Kill the farmer, kill the Boer’ is that not a rallying cry in South Africa? Not saying I agree with it, just saying that there is definitely those who would gladly have killed the whites in South Africa (much like the situation in Rhodesia).

You’re cherry picking race within a nation. Raise it back up to the state level. Which other nation in the African Union was openly championing for the destruction of the entire country?

 

[suffolkowner]

Ahh yes, the making a nation by offering someone elses land. Very generous of the west to offer someone elses home up. Maybe they should have given Bavaria, Saxony or Prussia instead.

The Israelis had plenty of options post-WWII, they may not have wanted to go back to Germany or Poland (etc.) but it was a option, and still is. It isn’t a option for the Palestinians.

I don’t want Israel to seize to exist, I also don’t want them to keep expanding and continue to push the same type of horrors on the Palestinians that they went through themselves. They need to start actually working to resolve the issues instead of inflaming them.

‘Kill the farmer, kill the Boer’ is that not a rallying cry in South Africa? Not saying I agree with it, just saying that there is definitely those who would gladly have killed the whites in South Africa (much like the situation in Rhodesia).

You have to remember what came first the hatred of the Jews, or the expansionist Israelis? Generally it seems the hatred followed Israel’s creation and the displacement/killing of Palestinians.

lots of Israelis came from the greater Middle East as well. There are almost no Jews in the greater Arab world now

The hatred of the Jew came first. Obviously

There is no such thing as a Palestinian, just Arabs that live in an area we may call Palestine

 

[OldSolduer]

Something blowed up real good.

 

[Eaglelord17]

You’re cherry picking race within a nation. Raise it back up to the state level. Which other nation in the African Union was openly championing for the destruction of the entire country?

I am cherry picking a race because that is what would happen with Israel as well, it isn’t destruction of the muslims in Israel that is sought.

lots of Israelis came from the greater Middle East as well. There are almost no Jews in the greater Arab world now

The hatred of the Jew came first. Obviously

There is no such thing as a Palestinian, just Arabs that live in an area we may call Palestine

There most definitely is Palestinians, pretending they don’t exist to support their lack of a state isn’t helpful for anyone.

A nation only needs a group of people to believe it exists to exist. Germans weren’t Germans until the 1870s. Before that they were Prussian, Bavarians, etc.

We have a internationally agreed upon border, a people who have a distinct identity (their neighbours who have taken refugees over the last century acknowledge the diaspora).

There may have been hatred of Jews before in the middle east but it wasn’t as it is now. Clearly they were tolerated before Israel’s existence. Otherwise there wouldn’t have been a diaspora to move to Israel.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Ahh yes, the making a nation by offering someone elses land. Very generous of the west to offer someone elses home up. Maybe they should have given Bavaria, Saxony or Prussia instead.

The Israelis had plenty of options post-WWII, they may not have wanted to go back to Germany or Poland (etc.) but it was a option, and still is. It isn’t a option for the Palestinians.

I don’t want Israel to seize to exist, I also don’t want them to keep expanding and continue to push the same type of horrors on the Palestinians that they went through themselves. They need to start actually working to resolve the issues instead of inflaming them.

‘Kill the farmer, kill the Boer’ is that not a rallying cry in South Africa? Not saying I agree with it, just saying that there is definitely those who would gladly have killed the whites in South Africa (much like the situation in Rhodesia).

You have to remember what came first the hatred of the Jews, or the expansionist Israelis? Generally it seems the hatred followed Israel’s creation and the displacement/killing of Palestinians.

The Palestinians are always very clear, they will take what they can get and then demand more. They are also very clear that their end goal is the destruction of Israel and the eradication of Jews from the region. I Personally take them at their word. The Palestinians were not betrayed by the Israelis, but by their fellow Arabs. Only Syria to my knowledge gave them anything close to citizenship. The palestinians in return for any help from other Arabs, is to betray them as well. Israel wanted to return Gaza to Egypt, but the Egyptians did not want that festering sore back, and had been none to kind to the residents during their tenure. Neither did Jordon want the WB back and abandoned it. I feel more for the WB palestinians than I do for the Gazans. The issue in the WB, is there is not enough land and water for everyone and someone has to lose, so pick your poison. On top of that, seeing what Hamas did to Gaza, the WB residents seem to be happy to support them and bring them into their community to create the same chaos that is Gaza.

 

[suffolkowner]

I am cherry picking a race because that is what would happen with Israel as well, it isn’t destruction of the muslims in Israel that is sought.

There most definitely is Palestinians, pretending they don’t exist to support their lack of a state isn’t helpful for anyone.

A nation only needs a group of people to believe it exists to exist. Germans weren’t Germans until the 1870s. Before that they were Prussian, Bavarians, etc.

We have a internationally agreed upon border, a people who have a distinct identity (their neighbours who have taken refugees over the last century acknowledge the diaspora).

There may have been hatred of Jews before in the middle east but it wasn’t as it is now. Clearly they were tolerated before Israel’s existence. Otherwise there wouldn’t have been a diaspora to move to Israel.

Germans are an ethnic group and a nation. Palestinians are neither, not only that they have shown themselves to be incapable of governance

So ask those Arab muslims if they want their jews back then right? They cant have their cake and eat it too

 

[Good2Golf]

I am cherry picking a race because that is what would happen with Israel as well, it isn’t destruction of the muslims in Israel that is sought.

No. Israel is not seeking destruction of a State. It wants Iran and Qatar to stop funding proxy-combat through Hamas and Hezbollah against it. It wants Lebanon to stop supporting Iran’s use of Hezbollah to attack it, etc. Iran wants Israel to cease to exist as a state, no matter how many Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze, and so on are genocided. If Iran (and Qatar) succeeded, they would most likely named their captive territory Palestine. Then the Arab nations in the region would most certainly become the targets of Persian and Qatari ‘influence.’

 

[OldSolduer]

No. Israel is not seeking destruction of a State. It wants Iran and Qatar to stop funding proxy-combat through Hamas and Hezbollah against it. It wants Lebanon to stop supporting Iran’s use of Hezbollah to attack it, etc. Iran wants Israel to cease to exist as a state, no matter how many Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze, and so on. If Iran (and Qatar) succeeded, they would most likely named their captive territory Palestine. Then the Arab nations in the region would most certainly become the targets of Persian and Qatari ‘influence.’

One only needs to hear the chant some of our "Progressive" folks in universities and the unions were compliantly going along with. I won't say it here - you all know it. THAT chant tells me the destruction of Israel and mass murder of Jewish people is Iran's goal.