Grammar and Sentence Structures

[pronto]

Interesting points, I'd love to hear RCAs thoughts on this too!. I've never even considered that the English language in its written form is inadequate to any purpose. I haven't had any difficulties, but then I rarely resort to sarcasm, and I speak very much as I write.

You are 100% correct - a Bachelors is the new senior matriculation. The problem for me, however,  is that High School should be the new junior matriculation, and some familiarity with the language is devoutly to be wished. 30 years ago, a "junior matric" offered tremendous skills. It can still be that way. Are we saying that in 30 years we've become less intelligent? I think not.

So why do we accept less from our high school grads and teachers? I recently read a report which reviewed standardised IQs, and indicated that the baselines are increasing - therefore one would naturally assume that levels of literacy and capabilities would correspondingly increase. I see no reason why this is impossible - I think the era of "every one is a winner" and "every one must pass the grade" has diluted the end result. Thoughts?

Interesting point regarding class - yes - 200 years ago only the upper classes were literate. But now with access to education, increasing baselines of intelligence (if you believe that) why can't the average high school grad write a resume, essay, paraphrase or commentary?

I think English teachers are not teaching English. I speak Latin, French, English, and have a passing acquaintance with some others. Languages have rules. Split infinitives are not allowed in English, Latin and French, but are in German (Thank you CFB Lahr!)

Bridget Jones' Diary means more than one Bridget Jones has collaborated on a diary
Bridget Jones' Diaries means more than one Bridget Jones collaborated on more than one diary
Bridget Jone's Diary means the diary of Bridget Jones

Seems straightforward to me.  >

I respectfully disagree - reading is never overrated. I've read a lot of crap, and always managed to get something out of it.  Pronunciation issues can be either dealt with via dictionaries, parental correction, friendly correction, or humiliation. (There is always someone willing to humiliate you, isn't there?)

 

[Kal]

I wouldn't call it evolution. Evolution implies going from a state of simplicity to one of complexity, making these trends the polar opposite of evolution.

    I may sound argumentative, but I don't mean it.  The act of evolution isn't always to a more advanced state, or it may be in one area, but may take a step back in another. A chemical reaction would be an evolution, yet not every reaction advances into a superior form.  I always understood evolution to mean a process in which something passes by degrees to a different stage or any process of change over time.

    I believe there will always be the sub-cultures of a mainstream, standard language.  It would be naive to only look look at the past 50 years of spoken language and decide what the current state is, or isn't'.  Let's ask this up again in 200 years and debate it then.... ;D

 

[oyaguy]

You're kind of correct, except the surname, Jones, always has the S. So to indicate the possessive, in English, we add an apostrophe S. But it looks weird having the S back to back. I personally prefer Jones' just for brevity and the fact it looks more even. Some would disagree.

I also think the prohibition against split infinitives is dumb. The rule is arbitrary and doesn't really make sense to me.

As for our matriculation system, I live in Alberta. For anyone thinking about going to university here, you must have English 30, which is grade twelve English. There is also another grade twelve English course that is English 33 {or some other number}. From your point of view Mr. Pronto, English 30 would be the more "pure" English stream in high school. Looking back at my High, Junior, and Elementary school years, in terms of learning how to use English, I probably should have done more essay writing. It isn't until I got to High School when essays started to count, though to be fair to my grade 9 English teacher, she was a stickler for language.

I think for most teachers, at all levels, its easier to administer tests, multiple choice, long answer etc... than to assign essays. I think this is unfortunate because the only way students will learn how to use English, is by using English. Reading {I was kidding in saying its overrated} and above all, writing is necessary to gain a grasp of English that would be denied to people who only speak English. In turn it's not enough that the basic rules of grammar are taught, they must be also be understood by the students. English teachers should do this by assigning as many essays as possible. I don't think elementary is too soon to be giving kids essays.

Additionally, other classes should make use of essays. In High School, English and Social Studies {an amalgam of history, geography and some Social Sciences} were the only courses that made use of essays. I think all classes should, to some degree, use essays. Chemistry, and Math teachers, for example, could use essays. Not subjects that one normally writes for in an essay format, and would require some creativity from the teachers. Teachers could probably call them "research papers". Stuff like, look up and research the properties, uses, and other relevant knowledge regarding Bismuth. Or pick a mathematician and explain why he is important, etc...

In general though, when it comes to High School, I think it gravitates towards the more "hard" sciences. I could have taken Chemistry 30, Physics 30, Science 30, Math 30, Math 31{Calculus}. Softer subjects like History, for example, doesn't really exist anymore, except in the weird amalgam of Social Studies.

Of course, there is another entire set of courses, the 33 courses, which will get you your high school diploma, but doesn't give that graduate many requirements for several post-secondary institutions.

"I think the era of "every one is a winner" and "every one must pass the grade" has diluted the end result. Thoughts?"

You have a point, but it wasn't like I was taking up the extra slack for people who may or may not have deserved to be in the same grade as me. When you get to high school, you could be a grade twelve student taking grade ten courses, but unless you had the required courses and your 100 credits {I graduated with 130 something, it's not that hard} you wouldn't get your high school diploma which is what really counts.

 

[Gramps]

While reading through the many many threads here, I have come to the conclusion that there is a large number of people who don't know how to spell (this is not really a big deal, everyone makes spelling errors). What does bother me is the use of certain words and their definitions that, when used improperly will render an argument or a point that someone is trying to make completely useless or change the meaning all together. Here are some examples.

There, Their and They're all sound similar but have three completely different meanings. Other common ones are through and threw,   wear, where and were (I cant even start to explain what is wrong with these three), wich and which, wench and winch,  and many many more.

Is it just me or has everyone become lazy when it comes to writing, speaking and even reading English. I can understand if English is not your native tongue but for those who are English speaking these types of mistakes are appalling.

I'm not trying to start any type of "flame war" here but I think people should be a little more aware of what they are trying to say, Thats just my opinion though. Cheers.

 

[Guy. E]

Ahhhh, this wonderfull spell check device, Gods gift to the internet. It is far too bad that when i type in for example CFB Shilo, the spell check wants to call it "Shiloh"...

I can admit to the fact that I was never an expert in the subject of the english language. My english mark has always been average, perhaps a little below. Is that a fault of the Manitoba Educational System? Is it me not caring enough? could it be a problem with the absence of positive enforcement when learning to read and write an early age?, or could it be a physiological quirk in my brain that i cant spell like the little kids on T.V, but I can solve most any mechanical, physical and spacial problems I can do it like it was nothing at all.

I know people who can write books and ace every single high school final exam, but if they had to replace a wheel bearing in the brake rotor of a car, they wold think the first step is to look in the glove box. All of this boils down to the biological structure of your brain and how work inside. Its too bad i can get more information by looking over something and asking a few questions or some pictures with captions as opposed to reading a twenty page essay with a two hour exam on the same thing.


I agree with you that there are far too many people using short hand in the professional world. This is my mistake for thinking that this is a relaxed semi unprofessional environment. Unfortunately that is the way that the modern world is evolving and there is nothing you can do no matter how hard you toy to regulate it or enforce grammatical rules.

 

[George Wallace]

This is a good thread for many posters who have problems accepting the fact that good spelling, grammar and sentence structure are still relevant to communication skills today.  Still relevant in applying for a job.  If you are joining the CF, or doing an OT, you will have to pass the CFAT.  There are questions on it that require good language skills.  If you don't have them, you may fail.  If you fail, then perhaps your hopes and dreams will be squashed.  Your choice.  Will you be able to communicate like a 'Professional' or a uneducated 'hick'?

 

[Donut]

I agree with you that there are far too many people using short hand in the professional world. This is my mistake for thinking that this is a relaxed semi unprofessional environment. Unfortunately that is the way that the modern world is evolving and there is nothing you can do no matter how hard you toy to regulate it or enforce grammatical rules.

Guy, not to further take this thread off-course, but it's quiet clearly spelled out in the conduct guidelines what level of written communication is expected here;  As well, Mike and his DS have managed to regulate this site fairly well over the past decade+ of his operation here, and I, for one, wouldn't bother being here if it wasn't as professional and well run as it is.

And now back to your regular programming.

DF

 

[mudgunner49]

Ahhhh, this wonderfull spell check device, Gods gift to the internet. It is far too bad that when i type in for example CFB Shilo, the spell check wants to call it "Shiloh"...

I can admit to the fact that I was never an expert in the subject of the english language. My english mark has always been average, perhaps a little below. Is that a fault of the Manitoba Educational System? Is it me not caring enough? could it be a problem with the absence of positive enforcement when learning to read and write an early age?, or could it be a physiological quirk in my brain that i cant spell like the little kids on T.V, but I can solve most any mechanical, physical and spacial problems I can do it like it was nothing at all.

I know people who can write books and ace every single high school final exam, but if they had to replace a wheel bearing in the brake rotor of a car, they wold think the first step is to look in the glove box. All of this boils down to the biological structure of your brain and how work inside. Its too bad i can get more information by looking over something and asking a few questions or some pictures with captions as opposed to reading a twenty page essay with a two hour exam on the same thing.


I agree with you that there are far too many people using short hand in the professional world. This is my mistake for thinking that this is a relaxed semi unprofessional environment. Unfortunately that is the way that the modern world is evolving and there is nothing you can do no matter how hard you toy to regulate it or enforce grammatical rules.

Dude,

You failed Automechanics 101, didn't you???  The wheel bearing is not "in the brake rotor of the car"...

if you're going to use an analogy - use a good/accurate analogy...

 

[Guy. E]

well darn it all, that just sucks.


Brake Rotors:

Wheel bearing in the break rotor:

Wheel bearings:

I dident take Power Mech, I graduated with a technical certificate in Computer Aided Design.


BTW, the CFAT was a breeze.


( I am done with this thread now)

 

[Fishbone Jones]

In muddgunner49's defence, many brake rotors are separate, and slip over the hub. The wheel bearing is contained within the hub. The above pictures are not indicitive of all situations.

 

[ChopperHead]

Well as someone who has gotten in trouble a bit about grammer and spelling, I can honestly say that I didn't bother to spell right or correct grammar or anything because I don't care.
  I absolutely hate grammar and spelling and I don't feel It an issue how someone spells something when it's obvious what they are saying, Ex: she ran over their. Everyone here knows that means the girl went over THERE it's not confusing and if it can be understood what the person is saying then don't worry about it.
  MSN speak is entirely diffrent and I wont get into that. I now try to use proper grammar and spelling because of being talked to by some mods and getting into a fight with someone. thats fine, I can use proper grammar but I just choose not to on the internet as I don't see the point.
  Also whether someone is good at grammar or spelling etc really doesn't reflect on how intelligent the person is, everyone has weaknesses and things they aren't good at and not everyone cares whether or not they can spell or what their grammar is like.

 

[George Wallace]

.............. I can use proper grammar but I just choose not to on the internet as I don't see the point.

Obviously you are missing the point.  It is others who "see the point" and make their minds up of who you are.  Your 'point' is the impression that they get of you.  It may in the end affect whether or not you get the position you may apply for sometime in the future.

  Also whether someone is good at grammar or spelling etc really doesn't reflect on how intelligent the person is, everyone has weaknesses and things they aren't good at and not everyone cares whether or not they can spell or what their grammar is like.

Actually it is usually a good indication on how intelligent a person is, how professional they will act, and if they will make a good person to hire who will be able to correspond efficiently and effectively.  If you want to get into a Profession that requires writting of Technical or Scientific papers, you will require good writing skills.  Many Universities have a problem in that they are graduating 'illiterate' students, who have difficulty with these subjects.  Maybe that is why so many with several Degrees, land up driving Cabs.  In the end it does 'reflect' on what people will think about you.

 

[ChopperHead]

yes and if i was applying for a job or wrighting a university paper or whatever then I would wright properly and take the time to cross my T's and dot my I's. My resume happens to be very well written and so are my essays, reports etc.

  My post was referring exclusively to this forum. If someone were to give me a resume full of mistakes and what not I might think twice about giving that person a job which is fine because applying for a job is a situation where proper grammar, spelling etc is required. This however is not a Job interview or a university paper.

  Someone might be the smartest person in the world but because they choose to not bother proof reading everything they wright on an internet forum that means they are not as intelligent as someone who does? I think not.

  thats what i meant about some people are just not good at that sorta thing and don't want to take the time to correct it when it really doesnt matter, that doesnt reflect how smart someone is Nor does it mean that the people who jump around from thread to thread correcting everyones mistakes like it's their sole mission in life are very intelligent.

 

[George Wallace]

   My post was referring exclusively to this forum. If someone were to give me a resume full of mistakes and what not I might think twice about giving that person a job which is fine because applying for a job is a situation where proper grammar, spelling etc is required. This however is not a Job interview or a university paper.

As we are trying to keep this a 'Professional' site, your lack of concern for grammar, spelling, sentence structure and bad attitude, reflect in everything you post.  The members with the knowledge and experience here, look down on that type of posting and have the impression that you are not knowledgable, educated and have a low opinion of you.  Why?  The answer lays in the way you post.  So, yes, the way you communicate does reflect on how we think of you.  Do you get that point yet? 

  Someone might be the smartest person in the world but because they choose to not bother proof reading everything they wright on an internet forum that means they are not as intelligent as someone who does? I think not.

You have yet to prove that.

   thats what i meant about some people are just not good at that sorta thing and don't want to take the time to correct it when it really doesnt matter, that doesnt reflect how smart someone is Nor does it mean that the people who jump around from thread to thread correcting everyones mistakes like it's their sole mission in life are very intelligent.

Sorry to hurt your sensibilities, but as a Moderator and Staff on this site, it is one of my responsibilities to do this.  Some day, you too, may find out what it is like to have responsibilities and abilities to use good writing techniques.  I am sure that although your Resume may be very well written, you didn't do it yourself, but instead you paid a professional to do it.  But that is neither here nor there.

 

[Slim]

Well as someone who has gotten in trouble a bit about grammer and spelling, I can honestly say that I didn't bother to spell right or correct grammar or anything because I don't care.

Chopperhead

If you wish to post on this site you will use proper spelling grammer and sentence structure (within reason). These are the rules of the site and they will be maintained.

If you persist in breaking them (or any other rule) you will progress through the warning system until you find yourself banned. Again these are the rules.

The ball is in your court.

Slim
STAFF

 

[Mike Bobbitt]

My post was referring exclusively to this forum. If someone were to give me a resume full of mistakes and what not I might think twice about giving that person a job which is fine because applying for a job is a situation where proper grammar, spelling etc is required. This however is not a Job interview or a university paper.

You're absolutely right, it's not. The big difference that a university paper is seen only by your prof, who grades it and moves on. A post here on Army.ca will be indexed and searchable on the Internet for years (decades?) to come. It is quite literally a public record - possibly the largest record - of your actions on the Internet. Given technology like The Wayback Machine, it is not unreasonable that your grandkids will one day be reading what you are posting today.

I realize most users here don't care (or possibly just don't know) about the long-term impression they leave on the Internet, but I believe that's the point of this thread. Put your best foot forward, you're not doing it to put a smile on a Staff member's face, you're doing it to ensure your "permanent record" on the Internet accurately depicts your professionalism, intelligence and communications skills. Some may be happy to be seen is barely literate, but I believe most strive to higher goals.

I recognize the next (naive) argument is that nobody will know who Chopperhead is in a year, so what "he" posts will have no bearing on you later on. I think there is ample evidence to the contrary, and people put far too much faith in the thin veil of anonymity on the Internet.

 

[CdnArtyWife]

Oh, I want to add my two cents, but now I suddenly feel under pressure to type in perfect grammar and correct spelling...

I have a fairly large vocabulary base, and for the most part, know the correct spelling for said vocabulary. My problem, as of late, could be directly correlated with being "out of practice" in using such vocabulary and grammar techniques.

As a person who has been out of the work force for almost 10 years (for one reason or another) with the exception of a retail job here and there, I have not had regular opportunity to practice the grammar, spelling, and even vocabulary usage that would enable me to retain all of the knowledge base that I gained while in university.

I have my moments of pity for George "Dub-ya" for the amount of ridicule he receives for butchering the English language, especially when I have been guilty of doing nearly the same thing on several occasions. A fine example of this would be when I was being mildly teased by friends regarding my creative spelling and phonics when the C and X keys on my keyboard suddenly did not work. My friends joked around, calling me Russian as I used sentences such as: After luntsh I kan't get out for my regularly skeduled run, bekause I have to go to FutureShop and get a new keyboard. My "see" and "eks" don't work! I told my friends they were encouragable...then they hopped on me...they knew I meant incorrigible. It is a good thing I can take the harmless ridicule, as I know there are times when I butcher the language, or "make up my own words" to mean something similar to a word or two that are actually out there, had been a part of my base vocabulary, but as a result of lack of use or practice, I just couldn't retrieve it from the vestiges of my brain coffers to use properly.

It is unfortunate that we, as a society, have become gravely dependant upon such devices as Spell Check, as even these programs do not catch mistakes such as context errors.

Someone here mentioned that with all the internet, computer and MSN usage that the younger generations have access to today that they would be able to type out properly spelled sentences just as fast as the abbreviated ones. That is a fine theory, but, I would guess that not many people these days have been classically trained in typing either. The majority of people use the "hunt and peck" method of typing. They become increasingly adept at it and ever faster, but if you were to ask  the same folk to use the "home" keys and not look at the screen or keyboard while they type, rather the document from which they are following, you will find they have difficulty. I was fortunate that my highschool offered typing courses that used electric typewriters and not computers. I had to learn to type with the home keys and if I made a mistake I could correct some with correction tape, but for the most part we were expected to type as fast as possible with as few mistakes...and using that correction just took too long. I am, by no means, a fast typer, nor am I mistake free (the backspace key is definitely my friend!), but it is my opinion that computers have been a catalyst for the de-evolution of the languages that we once knew. English is not the only language suffering here.


As you can tell, I have a habit of rambling a bit, so I apologize.

Cheers,

Kara

 

[Guy. E]

These are very good points.

This must be why there are seperate Junior Ranks, Senior Ranks and Officers Messes in the military. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

Yes, that's exactly why, so officers and SNCOs have no need to see the pitiful illiterate ramblings of the unwashed masses.

 

[muffin]

Hello -
I wasn't going to post this because I didn't want it to look like advertising - but I figured it may help someone.

If anyone is truly interested in improving their writing skills, English or French, the Division of Continuing Studies offers a writing course that my help. It is a non-credit course, and therefore costs less than our regular University level courses. It is a required component of the NCMPD programme, but is open to all.

English course:
http://www.rmc.ca/academic/continuing/dceadd_e.html

French course:
http://www.rmc.ca/academic/continuing/defadd_e.html

muffin