Grammar and Sentence Structures

[George Wallace]

OK

The questions beg to be asked.  Why did you come to Army.ca?  Did you think it was a Gamer's Site?  Did you come here to find out information on the Canadian Forces?  Did you want to find out information on Joining?  Did you want to come here to Troll?  Why did you come here?

If you came to Troll or find a bunch of Gamer's or Paintballer's, then you came to the wrong site.  If you came to learn about or ask about the Canadian Forces or joining the CF, then you came to the right place.  If you want you input to be dealt with respectfully, then you must post in a professional, articulate manner, so that 'Professional CF Members' will respond in a like manner.  If you insist on using poor grammar, spelling, sentence structure or MSN speak and talk like a 'Street Punk' because you think it is "oh so Kewl!", then those Professionals who you would like to answer your questions will not come to this site.  We are trying to put a 'Professional Face' on this site and attract those people who will be able to give knowledgable help in answering your, and others, questions.  Like that Lighthouse Keeper said in that famous line: "Your Call!"

 

[muskrat89]

Yes, that's exactly why, so officers and SNCOs have no need to see the pitiful illiterate ramblings of the unwashed masses.

Kat - That's just about the funniest thing I've read here in ages  ;D

 

[Kat Stevens]

Thenkew, too kind.... I do what I can.... ;D

 

[DG-41]

SHORTENED LANGUAGE FORMS STOP NOT JUST A MODERN PHENOMENON STOP LANGUAGE CONFORMS TO USE OF TECHNOLOGY STOP NOT JUST A SIGN OF WASTED YOUTH STOP

(incidentally, this particular technological example leads to one of the best military telegrams ever sent; a masterwork of brevity, wit, punning, and higher education all rolled into one. When Sir Charles Napier captured the Indian province of Sind in 1843, his telegram to report the event was a single word: PECCAVI - the first-person past perfect conjugation of the Latin verb "to sin", thus, "I have sinned")

The use of shortened, nongrammatical forms of communication is a side effect of the use of a certain technology, not necessarily the indication of falling educational standards nor the general decline of Western Civilization.

Nevertheless, I applaud the intent to keep the language expressed here conformant to grammatical convention. Having had recent opportunity to read the writings of a number of our younger soldiers, it does seem that written expression skills are sadly lacking, and anything that offers practice (and the opportunity for correction) serves a lofty and noble purpose.

However, one thing that I have observed is that moderators who parachute into a thread in order to apply correction ultimately disrupt the flow of conversation, and quite frequently (especially when the correctee is inclined to be argumentative) wind up steering the thread to yet another discussion about grammar and the use of language. Furthermore, because these corrections are done "in public" the natural response is one of anger and outrage, which in turn is just setting the stage for more drama.

I therefore humbly propose that the SOP for corrections on a poster's use of language, or for failure to use the search function, be similar to that employed in the actual military: "Punish in private, praise in public". We have a functional private message system, and that, I think, is the place for these corrections.

DG

 

[Michael OLeary]

Linguistic evolution may change based on technological capabilities and limitations, and those who defend the earliest versions of "msn speak" refer to the saving of bandwidth, which is no longer the technological limitation that it once was.

The ongoing evolution of "msn speak/l33t speak" is ever more dependent on the assumption that sender and recipient are both fully indoctrinated in its use, and keeping up with cutting edge social references, to enable understanding.

Similarly, "PACCAVI" worked, not because of a need for ultimate brevity - he likely controlled the medium at that point - but because he would have known that the officers receiving the message had the same classical educational background and participated in social circles for whom linguistic adeptness and cross-linguistic aptitudes were respected for both professional achievement and personal entertainment.

In both cases, "l33t speak" and latinate punning, were dependent on the ability of the recipient to understand the intended message without undue effort.

Now, to return to army.ca; the main source of credible information on these forums is the experienced military members. The CF expects relatively high standards of spoken and written communication from its personnel, a demand which is increasing in magnitude and importance for career development at a steady rate.

If a new forum member wants to be accepted at face value for the words they write, have their questions readily interpreted and clearly responded to, and wants to be welcome in ongoing debate (without the need to decipher their meaning and standpoint); then they - the sender - have an obligation to meet the expectations of the recipients.

Language skills are not an unimportant attribute - and the increasing opportunity and requirement to communicate on the internet emphasizes the need to be able to express oneself clearly and concisely, developing logical arguments in open debate and be able not only to understand others, but to make oneself understood.

And none who follow basic principles of good language usage will be diminished for it.

 

[CdnArtyWife]

That was a fantastic post, Micheal. Well said, thanks.

Kara

 

[ChopperHead]

Sorry to hurt your sensibilities, but as a Moderator and Staff on this site, it is one of my responsibilities to do this.  Some day, you too, may find out what it is like to have responsibilities and abilities to use good writing techniques.  I am sure that although your Resume may be very well written, you didn't do it yourself, but instead you paid a professional to do it.  But that is neither here nor there.

I was not referring to DS members as that is their job. And yes I did write it myself. But thats not the point. I do have the ability to use those good grammar techniques for the most part. However I don't see the point of wasting my time to do it on an internet forum. I do now because i was talked to about it and will respect the rules but I don't have to agree with them or with the reasoning some people give such as the intelligence thing.

Chopperhead

If you wish to post on this site you will use proper spelling grammer and sentence structure (within reason). These are the rules of the site and they will be maintained.

If you persist in breaking them (or any other rule) you will progress through the warning system until you find yourself banned. Again these are the rules.

The ball is in your court.

Slim
STAFF

I realise that. I try my best now to spell things right and use proper grammar simply because I was told to by the DS and it's part of the rules. thats fine I'm just saying I don't think it's that big of a deal.
   my problem is not with the DS enforcing it it's with other people enforcing it to make themselves look smart or whatever. If your average member is not aloud to enforce and decide on other people breaking other rules then i don't think people should be aloud to comment or enforce the spelling rules either.

 

[Journeyman]

   my problem is not with the DS enforcing it it's with other people enforcing it to make themselves look smart or whatever.

That is just the sort of errant pedantry up with which army.ca shall not put.

Personally, if I can understand the poster's message, the battle's almost won; save grammatical correctness for when you're at the university pub hitting on an English student.

I'd much prefer the time suggested for spelling/grammar-check be dedicated to re-reading for content. Many flame-wars could be reduced if we could more readily avoid, "ya but, what I meant to say was......" Perhaps ask if there is any substantive content to posting/responding at all - - if not, why not take it down to "Radio Chatter."

All that being said.....as noted in several posts so far, coherent, grammatically-correct, well-structured arguments, lacking in spelling errors do add credibility to the statements made - - sorry, but that's just human nature.

 

[Roy Harding]

I was not referring to DS members as that is their job. And yes I did write it myself. But thats not the point. I do have the ability to use those good grammar techniques for the most part. However I don't see the point of wasting my time to do it on an internet forum. I do now because i was talked to about it and will respect the rules but I don't have to agree with them or with the reasoning some people give such as the intelligence thing.

Chopperhead

Do it often enough and it will become second nature - thus necessitating no discernable wastage of your time, and saving countless hours of deciphering by the intended recipients of your messages (in this case, being the Internet, that part of the world's population which doesn't include yourself.)

 

[Scott]

my problem is not with the DS enforcing it it's with other people enforcing it to make themselves look smart or whatever. If your average member is not aloud to enforce and decide on other people breaking other rules then i don't think people should be aloud to comment or enforce the spelling rules either.

Chopperhead,

Members of this site policing themselves is part of what makes this site great. Much of the time we have regular members alerting Staff to problems in certain threads via the report post button or via PM.

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Considering the above stats you must understand that the Staff can't deal with every problem, no matter how minor, as they come up. IMO, what makes this site great is the level of self policing that goes on. Members watching other members and using the aforementioned report a post function or PMing the Staff. I understand that some members are quicker to jump on issues than others wether it's justified or not. I also understand the frustration that these same members must feel when they see people constantly ignoring the rules and the way that the site is "normally" run. There are sore spots when it comes to posting os this site:
-Posting before conducting a search
-Avatars, rank, screen names
-Empty profiles posting big time experience
-Spelling, grammar and sentence structure
-Excessive use of smiley's
-Posing
-Plus many more, but these seem to be the main culprits.
Point is, you will see people getting on one another for any one of the above examples, not just the Language Arts skills.

I take notes every day as a part of my job. It was impressed upon me that even my shorthand must be legible and as free of grammatical and spelling errors as possible. So, because I value my employment as well as my pride and sense of professionalism, I try to be as grammatically correct and utilize the spellcheck function as much as possible.

I understand that everyone is prone to error, I try to make as few as possible. And that's all we can ask from anyone.

 

[armyvern]

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed a marked increase in the amount of posters who are choosing to ignore the conduct guidelines that reflect the use of proper grammatical English, capitalization and punctuation lately?

It seems to me that there has been a marked increase in posts using "MSN speak" which lack:

a) Any kind of punctuation whatsoever (ending up being a 4 paragraph run-on sentence);

b) No capitalization (especially the word "I" and proper names such as "Bob"); and

c) Total ignorance of the existence of Army.ca's "Spell Check" feature (prominently posted immediately below the "Reply" screen - and next to - the "Post" button).

Come on. Professionalism is the mainstay of this site. Everyone makes mistakes but can we please begin, at least, to attempt to be professional with our posts? There are some posters who are not even attempting to do this (obvious by the lack of any kind of adherence/total disregard for any of the above three points).

A review of the profiles of these posters also leads me to the conclusion that it is not just the young "MSN" generation either, nor just new members.

I know that I manage to frustrate a few people on this site (as we will all frustrate someone one day!!) but this is getting ridiculous. 

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

The only thing I want to say on this is that not everyone speaks or writes English as their first language.
Those that do speak English as their primary language should be nudged and not crucified to write a little more professionally.

 

[Armymedic]

If you are interested in a military career, then the ability to write clearly, concisely and accurately is something that is looked at and assessed as both a point of performance and as potential for promotion to the next rank level. Learning and practicing it here will only benefit you in later life.

BTW, at work, I just has a two page memo returned to me because the spell check did not pick up my misspelled version of "very" as "vary" is also an acceptable English word.

 

[George Wallace]

I agree with you Veronica.  I get tired of having to read a post three or four times, sometimes more, to decipher what the poster has posted.  There are a few reasons that we are seeing this phenomenon on the site.

1)     Our Education System is graduating people with below standard language abilities.  We are afraid to hold people back today.  It is a "pass them at all costs, and let someone else worry about them" philosophy.  It has been a problem faced by Universities, as far back as the 1960's and 70's, where they found that many of their Graduates were actually illiterate.

2)     It is the rebelliousness of Youth.  I have seen a few posters here who figure that they can do as they please, and rules are to be ignored as they are set out by 'old' people who don't understand the ways of life in this 'New Era'.  They don't place any value on age and experience.  They figure they are the 'Future' so they can flaunt their ways as they please.  Oh, well, someday they will be older, and wiser too, and face the same indignations that they hand out to their elders today.

3)     Trolls.  Some are just outright Trolls, who find pleasure in 'upsetting the apple cart' wherever they may go.  Their pleasures are derived from visiting sites and creating havoc.

I find it interesting that this site is seeing more members taking the interest in keeping this a 'professional' forum, and actively policing the site and themselves.  Leadership by example is a good sign.   I hope we can see improvements on all 'fronts'.

 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

C'mon guys. You've got five 'recent' pages of this stuff already running. Shift it over there.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/31327.0.html

 

[Armymedic]

C'mon guys. You've got five 'recent' pages of this stuff already running. Shift it over there.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/31327.0.html

Ah, man...we suck!

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

I just has a two page

I think you mean "had" and not "has" 

 

[Armymedic]

Ah, man...I suck!

I HATE SPELL CHECK!!

 

[Trinity]

C'mon guys. You've got five 'recent' pages of this stuff already running. Shift it over there.

C'mon should be Come on...  snicker

sorry...  I know I'm a bad man.

 

[DJ]

Just a thought as anything compulsory should be thouroughly scrutinized.  Is it possible to allow a member to post ONLY AFTER a spellcheck has been completed?  A member has the ability to 'ignore' any words or portions thereof that are intentional.  While I agree with a previous poster that the spellcheck should be the last resort, (society is becoming too dependent on this feature), it may help people pay attention to detail.