Go beyond your local experience...

[King Arthur]

I believe I have provided enough reasons, but you need to open your mind to hear them... I am as deserving as any other officer of the CF because I meet the requisites that lead me to earn it.  I would gladly respond to Infanteer's reasoning but I need to go to the gym... I have a few pounds to lose... you know...

Infanteer, I promise that I will take the time and make the effort to analyse what you posted.  This is interesting and I am open for a good discussion on this.  Thank you.

 

[Infanteer]

Infanteer, I promise that I will take the time and make the effort to analyse what you posted.  This is interesting and I am open for a good discussion on this.  Thank you.

Thank you sir.  If you feel the need to, send it to me through a Private Message, as there is simply way to much static chatter on this thread and I am exasperated with trying to constantly bring it back on topic.

Cheers,
Infanteer

 

[Matsu]

I am new to this site. The funny part about it is one of my cadets sent this link to me saying "Ma'am there's this funny fight on this forum about the CIC". So he sent me this link and I started to read, read about all your complaints and all of your woes with the program. Your 'discussion' about the justification of the CIC being commission has been quite informative and frustrating. For the past 7 years I've been in the program I've heard the same complaints from my friends who are in the reserves.

I do understand the frustrations of combat medic because I do believe some of his arguments about the CIC officers not being fit when one of the aims of the cadet movement is to promote physical fitness. The CIC officers do have to be cleared by the local head office and I do know that my paperwork will be detained because of my poor eyesight. Do I feel that such a justification is adequate to restrict me from a program I believe in? No. Am I in better physical shape than some officers yes. There is no justification for living a poor lifestyle, but not everyone has the same goals in life. Some people slow down when they are older and physical fitness is sent to the back burner when 'more important' issues such as financial or marital issues arise.

Re: the comments about CIC officers being drop-outs I find it interesting that the comment has come up considering quite a few friends of mine looked into joining the reserves after high school because they felt that was their calling. Combat medic before you go around assuming that CIC officers are just drop-outs perhaps you should look into your own corps and find out how many of them have only completed a high school degree. Furthermore, in earlier years it was acceptable not to have a further education. Times have changed and it is now â Å“frownedâ ? upon not to have a secondary education. I have a friend who is a great man who only completed high school and is now an officer due to real life experience. somethings can't be taught in the classroom but I think you already know that.

Now, re: the fact that privates have to salute CIC officers. They are given a commission yes. Some amongst them don't deserve it yes. But if friends of yours really have such a problem with it then why didn't they go and become officers instead of choosing the path they took, being a private? Re: the fact that CIC officers won't be sent to the front line is true. They are not trained in combat. Would they ever be called upon by DND to help out? YES. I has happened, in particular the events leading up to the big Y2K. I know that the officers from my squadron were told that they might be called upon. Y2K passed without a hitch and it was fine. Personally where I'm from we did NOT salute Officer Cadets until they received their 2Lt. But I do agree that you salute the rank and not the person.

Re: the lack of funding for the rank forces vs the CIC. There are many things wrong with the military and there is a lot of money that is wasted on petty things. DND does not have a lot of money that is easily dispersed to the various branches of the military. Some things confuse me with military methods but I can't say anything because I lack the full knowledge to comment on such things. The Cadet program is free to all youths, yes. Uniforms are provided at no costs...but aren't uniforms issued to everyone at no cost?!   EVERYONE is complaining about a lack of funding and it's visible on any base or at any unit. Sometimes we are all just SOL and we have to deal with it.

Finally this is a long reply to a long discussion that is open to ANYone to read including the cadets so I'm going to lead by example and leave you guys to your petty arguments. Judging from the way you've all been bickering I know you'll all set such a beautiful example for anyone who doesn't know anything about the military. Nevertheless, as any organisation the military is no exception to its share of problems. If anyone comes up with a new and inventive way of dealing with such problems might as well keep it to yourself because no one is subject to the ideals of change as everything is played on tradition. Thank you and may you all have a FIT life so we can all pass the physical tests people have been discussing.

 

[elscotto937]

Wow, reading the last few pages was taxing, so I will answer in roughly point on the points that concern me, because I don't think we are going to agree.

Battle Honours: Please document and explain

CIC on Operations: Who is this guy and what did they need him for, oh wait did the Serbs start a VRS cadet corps... Seriously what are the details, and why...

Combat_Medic: Were the 10 worthwhile CIC former Reg or Res members?

Qualification: Meeting the requirement to enter the CF does mean that you deserve the commission, Now King Arthur you mentioned that you were in the Res before, what made you decide to leave and become a CIC officer.

Officership: For too many of the CIC, it is the backdoor to the CF and you get to call yourself an officer.. I have heard too many times in this thread people say " we (CIC) are commissioned officers so get used to it" If you knew what it meant to be a officer then you could make a qualifed statement that you are officers, untill you have experienced dealing with soldiers and knowing the privledge of command, those type of comments fall on deaf ears.

Bad experiences: I have had my share of bad experiences with CIC officers, I have had some very good experiences...but that is not the issue. I would disscuss these in a PM if someone was interested.

Option: What is they gave the CIC uniforms and ranks that were similar to the CF, but they were actually just uniformed supervisors of a federally funded para-military Organizarion, with no official ties to the CF or thier rank structure. The cadets would consider them officers, but the CF would not. It might hurt the CIC's pride but there is nothing that would prevent them from doing thier job of supervising youth.

Comments?

Scott

 

[Inch]

Alright, I've been reading this thread from the beginning with the discussion flip flopping with what being an officer in the profession of arms entails.

I'm quite disturbed at the thought of a CIC officer thinking they're my peer in the profession of arms, I wake up every morning and put on a uniform, how can a CIC officer that puts on a uniform one evening a week and maybe 6 weeks during the summer consider themselves to be professional officers or members of the military profession? Professional officers take 14 weeks of basic training covering things like Geneva Conventions, Task procedure, leadership, drill, military law, and on and on the list goes.   The course could actually be longer, there's a bunch of self study that you do after you're done work for the day.   All of this info is req to be a professional officer, yet CIC basic is about 1/10 the length. 14 weeks and a Baccalaureate degree is required to receive a commission, if you don't have a Bachelor's degree, you have to finish phase training to get your commission.   A pilot with no Bachelor's degree must be trained to wings standard before receiving their commission, let's do the math here - 14 weeks of BOTC, 9 months of French (all reg force officer's must have a valid second language profile), 2-3 months of primary flying training, 6-8 months of basic flying training and 4-6 months of advanced flying training. Provided there's no delays, and there's always delays, a reg force pilot will get their commission in about 2.5-3 years. Same commission? I think not. Army and Navy training are similar time frames.

Now once you're trained, you've got Officer Professional military education (OPMEs) that cover Military Law, defense management, military history, politics, leadership and ethics, and technology in history. All of which are required to go to Major, plus AirForce Officer Basic (a 10 week course) and AirForce Officer Advanced (not sure how long but is in the range of a few months) and also Staff school. The Army and Navy have similar courses.   All this stuff applies to every officer, specific MOC training and upgrading is on top of all this.   Is all this stuff required for a CIC officer? No, of course not, but I would have to say that it is required to be considered a Professional Officer, since according to Webster's Dictionary, a profession is: 4 a : a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation b : a principal calling, vocation, or employment c : the whole body of persons engaged in a calling
You guys do it part time, 10 days is not long and intensive and it's not your principal employment.

So, considering the time and effort I have put into my profession as an officer, I'm a little aggravated by a CIC officer receiving the same commission without doing a quarter of the work I have. The NCMs on the board know this, and that's why there's the resentment there towards CICs from both NCMs and Officers. A Queen's commission is not required to do your job, not even from a command and control standpoint, other youth organizations don't have commissioned officers and control isn't an issue.

As for me, once I've put in my 35yrs as a professional officer, I'll be joining the CIC as well to help out the professionals of tomorrow, getting a third bar for my CD won't hurt either.  

Cheers

 

[combat_medic]

Scott: Some of them were, yes, but not all of them.

 

[sgt_mandal]

............will get their commission in about 2.5-3 years. Same commission? I think not.........

I don't think any of our officers in our Sqn have taken less than 2 years or close to that time to get their commision.

 

[Infanteer]

so I'm going to lead by example and leave you guys to your petty arguments. Judging from the way you've all been bickering I know you'll all set such a beautiful example for anyone who doesn't know anything about the military.

Well, since you feel discussion related to professional nature of the military is a "petty argument", you obviously you don't understand the nature of the profession of arms enough to participate, so by all means, lead yourself out the door and take a hike, because we can do without your smart-ass, know-it-all remarks.

Inch, excellent post; really sheds light on what I've tried to highlight on the specialized body of knowledge that is inherent in the profession of arms.



As for a solution, I was kind of hoping that someone in the CIC would pick up on the dilemma that Scott and I presented oh so long ago, but to date, only King Arthur has acknowledged it with promise of a reply.

My idea, along the same lines that Scott proposed, would be to remove the Cadet organization from the military all together.   This separation would not be wholesale, some links should be maintained in order to promote interest and educate the youth of Canada about their Professional Military Force.
The program could be merged with other youth groups to form a "Canadian Youth Corps" that is geared to the notions of patriotism and the responsibility of becoming a citizen.   I believe that removing the program from the military can allow it to broaden its interests and its scope more; I'd like to see the program look towards excelling its members in fields such as athletics, arts, academics and leadership.   The Canadian Youth Corps can have its own system of rank for both its members and its supervisors in order to inculcate the notions of achievement and responsibility.   This organization's end goal is to produce young men and women who are willing to make positive commitments to the civil society of Canada; part of this would entail orientations with the branches of the CF when they are about 16 or so as military service should be displayed as a form of social responsibility by this organization (as opposed to other groups in Canada who would do away with us).

This organization would demand a dedicated group of people to lead the youth of Canada, a group of people drawn from various areas of society that can contribute their unique skills to the leadership of the organization.   They would need to be dynamic individuals in order to attract the interest of the youth, lest the organization be seen as a "lame" thing and see its membership decline due to peer pressure.   It demands no less then what is required of a good CIC; however, it gives them credit for the position they are entitled to fulfill, that of a youth leader in the "Canadian Youth Corps."   It would be a position that was just as important as the military with respect to the vitality of Canada (what is the point of the soldier defending a nation that fails internally?), but would accept the fact that mentoring children and managing the application of force on behalf of the state are two distinct functions.

I'd rather see a 14 year old member of this hypothetical Organization come on these forums and ask about how their local government works or talk about an athletic program in which they did well instead of seeing them yap about the new webbing they just bought or how they are going to be a bad-ass paratrooper when they turn 17.

 

[Inch]

I don't think any of our officers in our Sqn have taken less than 2 years or close to that time to get their commision.

mandal, that 2.5-3 years is full time, everyday not just an evening a week and illustrates the difference between being a professional officer and not.

Cheers

Thanks Infanteer, thought I'd lend a hand, I hope it helps.

 

[King Arthur]

2.5-3 years is full time, everyday not just an evening a week and illustrates the difference between being a professional officer and not.

Using this argument, you get rid of all officers of the CF that are not RegF... What do you make of the PRes/Militia officers... 

 

[King Arthur]

CIC on Operations: Who is this guy and what did they need him for, oh wait did the Serbs start a VRS cadet corps... Seriously what are the details, and why... A psychologist, you know some people need those qualifications acquired outside of the profession of arms to take care of the proression of arms...[/b]

Meeting the requirement to enter the CF does mean that you deserve the commission - Of course not, but meeting the requirement to complete your training and the basic experience does

Now King Arthur you mentioned that you were in the Res before (never said that... I AM a reservist just like all CICs), .

Officership: For too many of the CIC, it is the backdoor to the CF ( you are assuming and generalizing... It is like me saying that people join your profession because they are too dumb or afraid to pursue a civilian education).

Bad experiences: I have had my share of bad experiences with CIC officers, I have had some very good experiences...but that is not the issue. . I have had more than my share of bad experiences with other elements, groups, branches of the RegF and PRes and you do not see me ask for their disappearance!

Option: What is they gave the CIC uniforms and ranks that were similar to the CF, but they were actually just uniformed supervisors of a federally funded para-military Organizarion, with no official ties to the CF or thier rank structure. The cadets would consider them officers, but the CF would not. It might hurt the CIC's pride but there is nothing that would prevent them from doing thier job of supervising youth. What if they gave YOU a t-shirt and a baseball cap and made you a militia unit with no ties to the CF, police officers maybe? It might hurt your pride but there is nothing that would preent you from doing your job of killing ennemies... It is not the uniform that make you who you are, it is what you bring to the team.

 

[King Arthur]

I'm quite disturbed at the thought of a CIC officer thinking they're my peer in the profession of arms, I wake up every morning and put on a uniform, how can a CIC officer that puts on a uniform one evening a week and maybe 6 weeks during the summer consider themselves to be professional officers or members of the military profession? Same commission? I think not. You guys do it part time, 10 days is not long and intensive and it's not your principal employment. So, considering the time and effort I have put into my profession as an officer, I'm a little aggravated by a CIC officer receiving the same commission without doing a quarter of the work I have. A Queen's commission is not required to do your job, not even from a command and control standpoint, other youth organizations don't have commissioned officers and control isn't an issue.

OK, again, does that mean that you would get rid of the PRes/Militia officers because they meet only once a week and train intensely over the summer? These guys also have a full-time civilian employment, just like the CIC. This does not make them  less important or deserving of their commission. This is a very weak argument, especially in the CF where the reservists play such an imortant role and will become increasingly important...  There are hundreds of CIC that wake up every morning and put their uniform on and go to work full-time in the HQs of the CF. They manage an organisation that had nearly 70,000 members, including the cadets and their supervisors.  This is more than the CF! We move and train 26,000 people during summers, which is more than the CF... We represent the CF in 1130 large and small communities...

On average a CIC works in support of the cadet units over 130 evenings/days per year, which is much more than the militia when you think about it... CICs are paid crumbles (22 days per year) for what they contribute in time and efforts when you consider the sum of work they do - In fact the CF could not afford to pay the CIC for all it contributes to the Canadian Society or even to the CF in terms of visibility and recruiting.  How often have you seen a member of the local Militia Regiment volunteer 4-5 times the days he his paid in addition to his mandatory parades to ensure that his unit thrives and excels... rarely... CICs are dedicated and passionate individuals that portray the CF in a very positive light across Canada and abroad, a fact that all the colonels and generals I have worked for have gladly admitted.  We bring something to the CF, something that no one else does.  Instead of seeing us as taking something from you, maybe you should see our contribution as a positive addition to the officer corps.

A Queen's commission is not required to do your job either... it is a piece of paper.  What is required is that you get the proper training to do your job in the field that you selected.  You and I get the training that is required to do our jobs.

Guess what, CIC Officers are also commissioned so that they can be put in charge of units and manage the financial, material and human resources allocated by the Canadian Forces.  We are accountable to the CF and the GOC for what we do.

 

[King Arthur]

My idea, along the same lines that Scott proposed, would be to remove the Cadet organization from the military all together.   This separation would not be wholesale, some links should be maintained in order to promote interest and educate the youth of Canada about their Professional Military Force.
The program could be merged with other youth groups to form a "Canadian Youth Corps" that is geared to the notions of patriotism and the responsibility of becoming a citizen.   I'd like to see the program look towards excelling its members in fields such as athletics and leadership.   The Canadian Youth Corps can have its own system of rank for both its members and its supervisors in order to inculcate the notions of achievement and responsibility.   This organization's end goal is to produce young men and women who are willing to make positive commitments to the civil society of Canada; part of this would entail orientations with the branches of the CF when they are about 16 or so as military service should be displayed as a form of social responsibility by this organization (as opposed to other groups in Canada who would do away with us).

This organization would demand a dedicated group of people to lead the youth of Canada, a group of people drawn from various areas of society that can contribute their unique skills to the leadership of the organization.   They would need to be dynamic individuals in order to attract the interest of the youth.  .

That almost describes the CCO of today to the letter!

FYI, the CCO is composed of three distinct organisations that were, in fact, merged as you suggested above, to become the CCO.  The Army Cadets, The Sea Cadets and the Air Cadets were separate entities that prepared people for battle...

 

[King Arthur]

Re: the fact that CIC officers won't be sent to the front line is true. They are not trained in combat. Would they ever be called upon by DND to help out? YES. I has happened, in particular the events leading up to the big Y2K. I know that the officers from my squadron were told that they might be called upon. Y2K passed without a hitch and it was fine.

Excellent point.   I am one of those CIC who was ask not to take vacation and get ready for Y2K... DND's mission far exceeds overseas missions and the preparation for war.  DND has a crucial domestic mission to serve and protect the citizens of Canada. Over the years and on several occasions, the CIC has been called upon to supplement the PRes and RegF in times of national crisis.  Good examples are the Saguenay Floods where hundreds of CIC were responsible for the emergency facilities and distributed goods to the victims.   The same for the Red River floods of a few years ago...   The best example in my mind was the Ice Storm in Quebec where large numbers of CIC were called upon to help victims and manage shelters.   How about the OKA crisis?   The Public Affairs Officer for the Canadian Forces was and still is a CIC. At a time where the CF is stretching its human resources to the limt by getting involved in more and more overseas mission, someone has to be there to take care of domestic problems, and it just happens that the CIC possesses a flexibility and an availabity that makes them a great resource in support of the RegF and the PRes.   We are present across Canada, even in smaller communities where we hae been called upon to search for missing people or manage shelter for victims of fires or other such tragedies.   As you see, we are more than Youth Leaders for the CF - we are a resource.

Maybe there lies a beginning of answer as to why we should be considered members of the CF...

 

[elscotto937]

A psychologist, you know some people need those qualifications acquired outside of the profession of arms to take care of the proression of arms...[/b]

So it had really nothing to do with his training and experience as a CIC officer, in fact couldn't a civi do exactly the same job. Was it palladium what Roto.

What if they gave YOU a t-shirt and a baseball cap and made you a militia unit with no ties to the CF, police officers maybe? It might hurt your pride but there is nothing that would preent you from doing your job of killing ennemies... It is not the uniform that make you who you are, it is what you bring to the team[/color].

We work with the Armed Forces of Canada, which requires formal authorityto manage an armed force. You work with youth, you do not exercise command over soldiers in the CF, nor do you need to. I was trying to propose an option that might work, but your response was just not in the sprit of a good debate.

And King Arthur, I apologize for thinking that you were inthe PRes, but did you not mention that you worked with the Reserves and did sometime at NDHQ, I may have been mistaken..

Infanteer, well stated proposel.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

To Infanteer and Scott, I must take issue with your arguments, all King Arther et al are trying to say is its not their fault that the standards they require are so low and therefore they are deserving of a commision.

 

[Excolis]

http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/1390/cic.html

i am still looking for more on the battle honours, but this says little about cadets history.  i know the cadet corps in london has battle honours for the fenian raids.  i know some corps found themselves fighting in WW1 also.  i am still looking, be patient.

cheers

 

[King Arthur]

So it had really nothing to do with his training and experience as a CIC officer, in fact couldn't a civi do exactly the same job. Was it palladium what Roto.

CF doctors, dentists, padres, drivers, divers, etc could do their jobs without them being in the CF, are you suggesting that they are not worthy of being members of the CF?  The CF does not train computer specialists and still they employ hundreds of them... are you suggesting that only those people that are trained on a specialty that is specific to the CF should be considered?

I do not who if it was palladium or who roto is.. sorry  :

 

[Inch]

2.5-3 years is full time, everyday not just an evening a week and illustrates the difference between being a professional officer and not.

Using this argument, you get rid of all officers of the CF that are not RegF... What do you make of the PRes/Militia officers...  

Actually PRes officers do reg force phase training in most cases, and their training is such that they're able to augment Reg force units.  A PRes infantry officer can be plunked right into a reg force unit with minimal difficulty.  The same can't be said for CICs.

A commission is most definitely req for my job, I am a professional officer in the Canadian Forces first and a pilot second.  I won't be flying helos forever, I will move on to bigger things. As a professional officer, just like any other professional, I continue to train and enhance my knowledge in the military officer profession and I will continue to do so for the rest of my career. Can the same be said for CIC officers?

PAFO is actually a trade, MOC 66A to be exact. So if this CIC you know or heard of was doing the job, it was an acting position.

I'm not knocking what the CIC do, you have not however given any good reasons why CICs should be considered professional officers and by virtue of that fact, I don't consider you my peers just because you have the same commission as I do.

By the way, the "just a piece of paper" comment about the commission further illustrates just how easy it is for CICs to get one, I've never heard a Reg force officer make a statement like that.   If you think 130 evenings/weekends is a big thing, try doing it for over 300 days a year, then I would consider you a professional officer and not just a part timer. Your "full time civilian" employment is your profession, being a Canadian Forces Officer is not.

Cheers

 

[King Arthur]

Do not distort what I said.  The Commission is a worthy piece of paper, but still a piece of paper. I am still proud of mine and display it in my office, but this is not what makes me what I am.  I have heard several officers of the RegF talk about their scroll as just a piece of paper, so do not patronize me please.

Your are in fact knocking what the CIC do, and I have given you several good reasons why CICs should be considered professional officers.  You do not want to us as your peers because you are too narrow minded to admit that not all officers require the same level of training.  The CIC training does not stop at their BOQ, it continues for several years and it is focused on their specialty.

I never said that being an officer is my job, although I have more experience as a full-time employee with the CF than you will get in the next 15 years.  OK... you work 300 days a year and I only volunteer 130... then let's get rid of the militia because your argument will also be that they work less than you and me. 

I do not mind a good discussion and arguments, but get educated correctly about us before commenting and stop using arguments that only aim at tring to prove your superiority over the CIC instead of understanding what we are all about.  People using arguments like yours create conflicts and have been responsible for tension between CIC and other elements for many years now.