Go beyond your local experience...

[combat_medic]

The argument is not whether or not you have to do basic training to complete your job, but rather does your job merit the Queen's Commission. Do you honestly feel that a overweight, diabetic, teenaged, high-school dropout who has partaken in 10 days classroom training has earned that commission?

You find myself and Infanteer ill-informed? Other than a decade of experience and first hand knowledge of hundreds of CIC officers, how much better informed would you have us be? You seem to call people mis-informed simply when they disagree with your own standpoint. And yet, when asked directly why you should be commission, the best answer you, or anyone else has been able to generate has been "because we lead youth, and generate interest in the CF." When presented with arguments about similar youth leaders who are not commissioned, all that was expressed as a defense was "the CDS says so, and you have to listen." Not one person has produced a viable, intelligent reason for CIC officers to be commissioned officers in the CF.

Talk about leading a horse to water! If you thought I was short on arguments than perhaps you should have re-read the 6 previous paragraphs I had written.

And no, you're not military. By your own admission, and in your own words you are a "youth organization."

 

[Michael Dorosh]

.And my cousins who joined the Marines all caught the bug while they were boy scouts.

So why do they have the Young Marines, then?

 

[NavyGrunt]

Who knows. Im saying that MY cousins got it from the boy scouts. Since your an expert on youth organizations maybe you can tell us if those young marine leaders have a commision. I know that the Civil Air Guard leaders were not.

 

[King Arthur]

Do you honestly feel that a overweight, diabetic, teenaged, high-school dropout who has partaken in 10 days classroom training has earned that commission? Nope.. but you are wrong in saying that these guys are teenagers, high-school drop-outs... They are not, and this is exactly why I resent having people like you generalizing.  

Do we earn our commission after ten days of training, no. You should educate yourself before making false statements like this one.

I have 30 years of experience and have seen thousands of CIC, and worked with RegF and Militia on a full-time and part-time basis.  I do not question your capability to assess your branch, do not question my capability to assess mine.

I earned my commission based on my  experience and my qualification, it is that simple.  I do not question whether your course is long enough or hard enough or whether they teach you all the right things? Have the same courtesy for my branch.

 

[King Arthur]

The argument is not whether or not you have to do basic training to complete your job, but rather does your job merit the Queen's Commission.

Do you honestly feel that a overweight, diabetic, teenaged, high-school dropout who has partaken in 10 days classroom training has earned that commission?

And no, you're not military. By your own admission, and in your own words you are a "youth organization."

OK I am confused here... what is it that you resent and make you lose sleep here...

1. that you feel my jod does not deserve a commission;
2. that we enroll young people; or
3. that I am a member of the CF whether you like it or not...

I am not the one having difficulties building a case here... you are shooting left and right buddy...

 

[NavyGrunt]

I have 30 years of experience and have seen thousands of CIC, and worked with RegF and Militia on a full-time and part-time basis.  I do not question your capability to assess your branch, do not question my capability to assess mine.

I earned my commission based on my  experience and my qualification, it is that simple.  I do not question whether your course is long enough or hard enough or whether they teach you all the right things? Have the same courtesy for my branch.

I believe you mean either component or element "sir".

 

[King Arthur]

Sure... element

The CIC is a Branch composed of three elements (army, sea and air)

 

[combat_medic]

"you are wrong in saying that these guys are teenagers, high-school drop-outs"

Then perhaps you should say that to the teenaged, high school dropout 19 year old CIC officer that I worked with. It wasn't a generalization, it was an example. It wasn't even hypothetical - this kid is out there teaching cadets and hasn't even completed a GED, and can't complete a single push-up.

And no, you aren't instantly handed a commissioning scroll the moment you complete day 10 of the training, but that is all the formalized training that is required (unless that course has been changed in the past few years). Nor does a brand new JNCO immediately get his leaf after he gets his course, but that's also all the formalized training he requires.

"I earned my commission based on my  experience and my qualification"

So, you deem yourself worthy of a commission when the kid in my example, having completed the exact same training as yourself is unworthy? Care to qualify that?

 

[King Arthur]

See.. there you go againg... using one example of bad apple to paint a dark cloud over the CIC.  This is ONE out of 5500, get over yourself and look at the vast majority who are outstanding leaders and officers.

BTW... who hires these guys?  Yep... not the CIC, the RegF working at the recruiting centres.  Do not blame the CIC for things over which we have little control.

 

[combat_medic]

King Arthur: Loss of sleep is hardly an issue. This is a matter of intelligent debate; a fact which seems to be eluding you, since you are taking every example and question as a personal affront rather than responding with more intelligent debate.

The issues I have with the CIC are the following;

1. A drain of time and funding from the remainder of the CF
2. Having no medical, intellectual, educational or physical standards for entry when even the lowliest reserve private has to complete them
3. Having people in uniform and holding a commission who are less trained and skilled than that same reserve private, and yet, whom the private is required to salute

Also, it's not the fault of the RegF recruiting Pers that the CIC has such low recruiting standards. He doesn't make the standards; he just signs them over.

 

[King Arthur]

Let's make this interesting and maybe you will help me understand. I am really really open-minded, trust me.

Tell me then, what do you think would be the minimal training required of the CIC to do their job?

 

[combat_medic]

"the vast majority who are outstanding leaders and officers."

Like I said, maybe 10 out of 200+. Perhaps my standards and expectations of both leaders and officers is higher than your own, but I would hardly consider 5% to be 'the vast majority'.

 

[King Arthur]

And you guys call this bashing of the CIC intelligent discussion?  I have more mature and more intelligent discussions with some of my senior cadets who are at least willing to accept that their might be more in life than their own experience.

 

[King Arthur]

The skills and abilities required of the CIC are different than what is required of a doctor, a dentist, a padre or one of your officers. You judge us in accordance with what is required of your officers. We judge different styles of leadership...   I have seen several RegF officers break their teeth trying to handle cadets and it does not make them bad officers, it simply makes them the wrong individuals for the job at hand. that is it.

 

[NavyGrunt]

Let's make this interesting and maybe you will help me understand. I am really really open-minded, trust me.

Tell me then, what do you think would be the minimal training required of the CIC to do their job?

I'm sure your current training is sufficient. However the Commission. From the QUEEN is not required. As a youth organization you don't need it. You are NOT MILITARY I couldnt care less where you get your funding. If we went to war the CIC would not be on the lines or the sea. So they are not requring the QUEENS commssion to be leaders of the QUEENS loyal troops.

All we want is for you to JUSTIFY you having a commission.Open our eyes. Cause from where I am you don't need it.

 

[Infanteer]

King Arthur and everyone else.

Well, if everyone wants to argue about the competency of the CIC, then I am going to withdraw from the debate, because there is no point in doing it.  As I have tried to say time and time again, and which no one seems to be understanding, is that the abilities and competencies of the CIC have nothing to do with my argument on the nature of the military profession.  Any attempt to bring it up is simply leading the argument away from the core issue.

Rather, myself and Scott have asserted that the CIC should not be part of the professional Officer Corps because they have no duties or responsibilities to the nature that defines that professional body.  

I do no make this argument out of spite, jealousy or lack of knowledge of what the CIC actually does.  I do it for the interest in the future and the level of expertise of our leaders in the profession of arms.  A sports coach can be a great leader of young athletes and do much to promote their health and fitness, yet we do not grant him the status of a Medical Doctor because he is not part of the medical profession.  The same is applicable to the military profession.  

In 7 pages, I have not seen any concerted effort to address my claims.  I even made an attempt to further the argument by providing the path to a solution that would meet the boundaries of the profession of arms, but that didn't work either.  I'll restate my original argument for the sake of saving this thread as it is rapidly approaching the "useless" file.

I would challenge your opinions on the role of the CIC within the Canadian Forces.  I would state the opposite; their inclusion within the Officer Corps detracts from the level of professionalism of the Military Officer.  The military officer is first and foremost a member of his profession, a unique body within his country that possesses highly specialized characteristics.  As Huntington identified, the Military Officer's professional body is defined by its unique expertise, its responsibility, and its "organic unity and consciousness of themselves as a group apart...."  All the customs our military possesses such as the salute, the deference of higher rank, and total authority of command are built around the existence of this professionalism; for some reason the CIC has had these aspects grafted over their organization.  When one walks into a hospital, one can immediately determine the doctor as unique, part of his professional body.  When one sees a military officer, one shouldn't have to try and discern whether he is a true professional or a dressed up bureaucrat or a youth group leader.

The professional Officer is one dedicated to the "direction, operation, and control of violence on behalf of the state."  I don't see this in the job description of the CIC.

Infanteer

 

[NavyGrunt]

The skills and abilities required of the CIC are different than what is required of a doctor, a dentist, a padre or one of your officers. You judge us in accordance with what is required of your officers. We judge different styles of leadership...   I have seen several RegF officers break their teeth trying to handle cadets and it does not make them bad officers, it simply makes them the wrong individuals for the job at hand. that is it.

As far as I know these trades all do BOTC......because if they are going to be in conatct with soldiers and sailors/airmen and lead them and command respect they need to at least go through the shit once. Unlike the CIC

 

[NavyGrunt]

King Arthur and everyone else.

Well, if everyone wants to argue about the competency of the CIC, then I am going to withdraw from the debate, because there is no point in doing it.  As I have tried to say time and time again, and which no one seems to be understanding, is that the abilities and competencies of the CIC have nothing to do with my argument on the nature of the military profession.  Any attempt to bring it up is simply leading the argument away from the core issue.

Rather, myself and Scott have asserted that the CIC should not be part of the professional Officer Corps because they have no duties or responsibilities to the nature that defines that professional body.  

I do no make this argument out of spite, jealousy or lack of knowledge of what the CIC actually does.  I do it for the interest in the future and the level of expertise of our leaders in the profession of arms.  A sports coach can be a great leader of young athletes and do much to promote their health and fitness, yet we do not grant him the status of a Medical Doctor because he is not part of the medical profession.  The same is applicable to the military profession.  

In 7 pages, I have not seen any concerted effort to address my claims.  I even made an attempt to further the argument by providing the path to a solution that would meet the boundaries of the profession of arms, but that didn't work either.  I'll restate my original argument for the sake of saving this thread as it is rapidly approaching the "useless" file.

I would challenge your opinions on the role of the CIC within the Canadian Forces.  I would state the opposite; their inclusion within the Officer Corps detracts from the level of professionalism of the Military Officer.  The military officer is first and foremost a member of his profession, a unique body within his country that possesses highly specialized characteristics.  As Huntington identified, the Military Officer's professional body is defined by its unique expertise, its responsibility, and its "organic unity and consciousness of themselves as a group apart...."  All the customs our military possesses such as the salute, the deference of higher rank, and total authority of command are built around the existence of this professionalism; for some reason the CIC has had these aspects grafted over their organization.  When one walks into a hospital, one can immediately determine the doctor as unique, part of his professional body.  When one sees a military officer, one shouldn't have to try and discern whether he is a true professional or a dressed up bureaucrat or a youth group leader.

The professional Officer is one dedicated to the "direction, operation, and control of violence on behalf of the state."  I don't see this in the job description of the CIC.

Infanteer

See really if you are being objective King Arthur you'll see that Infanteer spells it right out here. You cant argue with the mans logic.

 

[King Arthur]

OK... Prince Phillip is our Commander in Chief, the Queen signs my commission, the Governor Geeral is our Colonel in Chief...

There is a tradition to the cadets that you guys fail to realize because you are focusing on what you see today.  Cadets were there 100 years ago and fought wars.  Our organization earned its recognition through combat before turning into a Youth Organization.  Therefore we have a tradition that should be accounted for.

I deserve a Queen's Commission because as an officer of the CF I am regulated by the QR&Os, because this is what is issued to officers whoo have completed their training, I do not believe that I need to say more.  

 

[combat_medic]

I stated that my experience with the CIC has been almost entirely negative. This comes from time serving with hundreds of such officers in multiple provinces across the country. If you consider this to be an insult to the CIC, then maybe the problem should be addressed with the 190 or so who were not competant leaders or officers. It's not an insult, it's a statement of fact. When I said that many officers couldn't even march alongside their troops without getting winded, that was also a fact. When I mentioned numerous medical, confidentiality and safety violations made by CIC officers to my face, that is also factual. When I talked about CIC officers with medical problems severe enough to bar them for life from the CF, that is also a fact.

If I were a Battalion Commander and someone told me that they dealt separately with 200 of my troops, and nearly 95% of them were incompetant and dangerous, I wouldn't be yelling at the person who told me, I would be addressing it with my troops. Personally, I would consider it a far greater insult that these people were in my Battalion, not that others were telling me so.

"I deserve a Queen's Commission because as an officer of the CF I am regulated by the QR&Os, because this is what is issued to officers whoo have completed their training, I do not believe that I need to say more."

And yet still you have not addressed why you are deserving of it when the overweight teenager in my example was not, even though he and yourself have completed the same training. Come to think of it, you have not been able to provide any actual defense of why you should be commissioned at all, other than "because the CF says so."