Go beyond your local experience...

[Michael Dorosh]

I remember seeing on your German Army site that the Germans had some sort of distinctive commission for officers who performed vital support tasks but were not involved in the command of troops in battle.  Can you confirm this?

Mmmm, good point.  The Beamten (civilian officials) and Sonderführer were two classes of "officer" in the German military that possessed certain skill sets, such as pharmacist, lawyer, remount official, paymaster, doctor, dentist, veterinarian, interpreter, construction engineers,  etc.

To quote my own website:

As of 26 August 1939, NCOs and men with special linguistic or technical skills, but lacking in necessary military training, were permitted to be promoted to NCO or officer supervisory status as Specialist Officers.  They wore standard military uniforms (excepting as detailed below), and did have officer's rank (without an actual commission) and authority (but only within the area covered by their occupation) excepting those graded equivalent to NCOs.

Interesting concept, though in Canada, we've always prided ourselves on the ability to cross-discipline.  I think the Germans may have specialized a bit too much.  (Oho, so you're a contruction engineer, eh?  Well, you'll never command troops, then!)  Not sure who "commanded" their medical battalions - probably the Beamten/Sonderführer as his authority extended only to those under his command.

They wore a very military looking uniform (identical to the Army, with the exception of collar devices, shoulder straps, and the colour of the piping on their hats) - I don't know if they were saluted or not, but bear in mind, the Germans saluted NCOs too, if they were superior in rank.

I think you could include Military Lawyers because they deal with Military Law, which would fit under Huntington's definition as they are dealing with a unique sub-set of skills that is pertinent to the culture of the military.  Perhaps I'll have to go back to Huntington and the others I've read to further define the nature of belonging to the profession.

So how is it that the CIC don't deal with a "unique sub-set of skills that is pertinent to the culture of the military?" to play Devil's Advocate for a moment.

 

[Excolis]

ex dragoon...    back in the world wars some cadet corps recived battle honours... No 9 cadet corps in london has some as a matter of fact. adn are you saying by bettering the youth of tomorrow, and getting them interested in the CF, is not of value to the CF?

 

[combat_medic]

adn are you saying by bettering the youth of tomorrow, and getting them interested in the CF, is not of value to the CF?

I don't think anyone was questioning the value of the cadet organization as a whole. But as was stated, high school teachers are just as responsible for bettering the youth of tomorrow, and NCM CFRC staff generate just as much interest in the CF, but you don't see either group claiming to be entitled to the Queen's Commission because they lead kids.

If I run a paintball/airsoft league that is run in a quasi-military style, and serves to promote interest in the CF, does that mean I can be commissioned as well?

If you GENUINELY want respect for the commission you hold so dear, you need to find a better reason for it to be handed to you other than "we lead kids and make them interested in the CF." Otherwise, anyone who is in the same position as you should be entitled to the same rank and priveledges. This extends to boy scout leaders, high school teachers and the like.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I usually stay out of the cadet forum as I have no experience so if this question has been asked allready just kick me where I belong.

Just one question for those CIC  "officers", would you honestly still do this if tomorrow Infanteer got his way and your commissions were revoked?

 

[Michael Dorosh]

ex dragoon...      back in the world wars some cadet corps recived battle honours... No 9 cadet corps in london has some as a matter of fact.

Source?  This is certainly news to me, where can I read more about it?

 

[Excolis]

not at all...  the only difference in our training and the training of your officers is the battle portions... other than that we learn the military side of things.  on our JOLC (Junior Officers Leadership Course)  we had reg force WO from the RCR ex CAR.  we are not just trainied by CIC... all i have to say is that i am lucky i love down here and dont have a hard time with any of the PRes.  

 

[Excolis]

i would still do this tomorrow... for sure..... and as for the battle honours, they are hanging in the oficers mess in london or st thomas, i forget where they were... i will find out for you...

 

[Michael OLeary]

ex dragoon...      back in the world wars some cadet corps recived battle honours... No 9 cadet corps in london has some as a matter of fact.

[quote author=Michaerl Dorosh]
Source?   This is certainly news to me, where can I read more about it?[/quote]


I'd like to see more information on this as well. I've seen most General Orders and Canadian Army Orders authorizing Battle Honours for the First and Second World Wars, and I haven't seen any "awarded" to Cadet Corps.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I don't recall seeing CIC officers deployed with us nor do I recall a CIC officer winning a Victoria Cross at Dieppe.... While I am not a religious person I respect the service they provide the CF.

ex dragoon...    back in the world wars some cadet corps recived battle honours... No 9 cadet corps in london has some as a matter of fact. adn are you saying by bettering the youth of tomorrow, and getting them interested in the CF, is not of value to the CF?

Not saying it never happened but i too would like to hear more on this. Where in my above statement did I ever question the value of the cadet movement to to the CF? Being a former cadet myself I also know how big a role being a member of cadets nurtured my interest in the CF. Please read more carefully.

 

[muskrat89]

http://www.regiments.org/regiments/na-canada/corps/RCACC.htm

From the site above:

Note: battle honours are not awarded to this corps.

Not sure if the source is reliable enough though...

 

[combat_medic]

"the only difference in our training and the training of your officers is the battle portions"

HARDLY! Are you claiming that you are required to hold a post-secondary degree, pass the physical, medical and written test in order to get in, then spend 8 weeks (I think that's the length of the BOTC... feel free to correct me) in Gagetown being instructed on everything related to the military with the exception of combat training? Then it would be equivalent of the Padres officer training; exactly the same, but tempered for non-combattants.

I was personally witness to the 10-day weekend, classroom courses given to CIC officers in order to get their commission. Watching their grad parade, they were incapable of doing drill, were all wearing their webbing improperly, and actually had the audacity to jack us up for not saluting them (them being all OCdts). They didn't go to the field, and the only supposed fieldcraft they partook in was a basic instruction on webbing, and how it is worn. This is not even in the same playing field as the basic officer course, or even basic training. Showing up at 8am in short sleeve order and sitting in a classroom all day is a FAR cry from being beasted from 0530 to 2300 every day for 6 weeks.

Also, having worked at a cadet camp MIR, I can personally attest to the abhorant state of health of a VERY large percentage of CIC officers; many of whom have medical conditions so severe that they would be barred from the CF if they were not in the cadet movement. Many could not even march with their platoon from point A to point B without getting winded. Some were so grossly overweight that special chairs without arms had to be ordered for them in order for them to sit down. I've seen teenagers who were high school dropouts who were commissioned CIC officers, and some who not only couldn't type a proper memo, but also managed to mispell "Memorandum" and "Lieutenant" - his own rank. Can you honestly claim that this kid is being held to the same standard, in everything but combat training, as the remainder of the officer corps?

 

[Jarnhamar]

Very good post Combat Medic.
I'm going to salute a CIC officer just like i'll salute a company commander who i'd bend over backwards for just like i'd salute a 2nd LT with his head up his ass. When someone says you salute the rank not the person it's not an insult or a dig, it's just the truth. Saluting isn't a popularity thing. NCO's/NCM's salute officers and thats that.

The reasons i've seen argue why CIC officers "should" get a commission are pretty shaky.
Likewise as mentioned, the standard for being a CIC officer is much much lower than that of the regular force or reserves. Considering them the same just without the battle training? Hardly.

 

[King Arthur]

Several comments caught my attention over the past few days and I would like to address them...

1.  There IS a minimum education level to be held to join the CIC just as there is to become any officer of the CF.  If you dig a little deeper than the vague references or assumptions, you will discover that the CIC is one of the branches of the CF with the highest level of education.  You would not believe the number of BA, Masters and Doctorates held by CIC, so get off your horses about our education. If many CIC do not hold a BA or College degree yet, it might be because they are students, have you thought about that?

2.  As far as not being in good shape... take a good ans serious look around you and you will find that an increasing portion of the RegF and Militia is getting fatter and fatter... just as is the case with the rest of the North American Population.  Back to my original posting.. go beyond your local experience before labelling the CIC... I work with full time RegF and Reservists that are in much worse shape than the CIC working here... so again.. get off your horses...

3.  The word Officer comes from the latin officium, which means public service.  Trust me I am a qualified linguist...  This means that the word is not used solely for members of the Armed Services, but also for lawyers, judges, clerks, ranking officers or special Orders, police OFFICERS, etc. The CIC is one of several branches of officers from the CF because this is the mandate that we have received from the Chief of Defence Staff.  Yep.. the same CDS that tells you what you need to train for to become specialists in your specific fields.  Our training is defined in accordance with what we need to know to condut our mission. My experience with RegF and Militia members bitching about the CIC tends to focus on the frustration that you guys feel because we do not train for the same things that you do.... Gusss what... So what?  It does not take away from your knowledge or efficiency.  We are trained to do what we are asked to deliver.  If the CIC was ever asked to change their training (as it will occur), we will adapt.  We will be more qualified, but our mission will remain the same. And guess what? We will still find people to complain that we are overly trained to do our mission and that the CF should not be spending so much money on training us because this money should go towards the real thing you know, you guys...

4.  Before making false satements about the CIC or assuming, or generalizing based on your local experience, I would suggest that you dig deeper and know what you are talking about.  The CIC is composed of excellent leaders that have nothing to envy wrt leading troops.  We are not of the combat arms and we do not need to be, period. If called upon to support RegF and Militia in times of crisis, we will learn what needs to be done (because we are do darn well flexible and easy learner....

5. Also, before labelling my entire Branch because of the acts of a few immature young officers, I would look at the history of the CF and analyse who has been doing the most hazing and such wonderful actions that reflect so well on the entire Canadian Forces... Every family has its own black sheep, tat does not mean that all are the same.

6.  BTW, and FYI, a CIC went to Bosnia last year on a tour of duty... he came back without having caused the failure of its mission... how about that for a surprise?   He went because he possessed a skilled acquired through his civilian education... He was an asset.

7.  You know... you may lead a horse to water...

 

[King Arthur]

Another thing...

Why do YOU guys get your commission? I am curious to know if you really know or if you are just jealous of our nicer frames...

I get my commission because I meet the requirements bestowed upon me to qualify. Does that make me less qualified than you. NO.   It makes me less qualified to do your job, but should I prevent members of the RegF or Militia to serve with a cadet unit because you have not acquired the same level of professional expertise that I received to lead the Youth of Canada? If I follow your logic, you are not qualified to supervise cadets because you are killing machines trained to go to war.

Something to think about.   Give credit where credit is due and stop thinking about the CIC as a dumb bunch of kids trying to play soldiers. We are professionals and good at what we do.

As for patting ourselves in the back... we have to do it because you wont....

 

[combat_medic]

Let's address a few things

1. just as many reserve NCMs I serve with have BAs LLBs, PhDs or other advanced degrees. However, as with the CIC, it is not a requirement, nor is a complete high school education.

2. There are people in the military who are out of shape, and there are people in the CIC who are in shape. The difference is that the Reg and Res staff are required to pass physical and medical tests to get in, and to stay in, whereas the CIC do not. I've seen severely insulin-dependant diabetics who were in the CIC. They would have been thrown out of the Mo for it.

3. A corrections officer, loan officer at a bank, CEO, CFO or other person who uses the title "officer" is not a holder of the Queen's Commission, and not entitled to be saluted by members of the CF. Also, considering the vast amount of funding that the cadet movement receives annually, and the extreme shortage of funding and supplies throughout the CF, are you really surprised that people think your funding and position is superfluous? Are you going to outfit troops with full ceremonial dress uniforms when they don't have enough funding for combats and ammunition? The cadet movement is a "nice to have" and not a necessity. Yes, the CDS mandates it, and yes we have to do what he says. That point wasn't up for debate.

4. My "false assumptions" and "local experience" are based on multiple taskings throughout 4 different provinces, with army, naval, and air cadets over the course of close to 10 years, having encountered hundreds of CIC officers, and thousands of cadets. No, you aren't combat arms, but you're not combat service support, combat support, or even soldiers. The kind of administration and training that would be required to take a CIC officer and even put him in a CSS position as an augmentee would be just slightly lower than taking a civilian off the street. You're right, it's not the same job... at all. Soldiers vs. youth leaders. It's not only not in the same field, it's not even the same sport.

5. Of the probably 200 CIC officers I have encountered, less than about 10 were worth the paper their commission was written on. They were not all immature and young, but they were all arrogant and relatively useless. Yes, perhaps the 200 I have encountered were ALL the exception rather than the rule... but somehow I doubt it. I'd say that's a pretty good sampling, and a pretty widespread cross-section of ages, residences and experiences with which to form an opinion.

6. Civilians accompany troops on tour as well, and they typically don't cause a failure of the missions. That doesn't mean they're competant soldiers either.

7. People in glass houses....

 

[Michael Dorosh]

So combat_medic and infanteer - what is it you object to?   It does go beyond the saluting, yes?  

If it is funding, I don't see any harm in funding what is essentially a citizenship program; certainly that is not out of place by falling under the auspieces of the Federal Government.

The militia support to our cadet corps has seemed to be oriented around senior NCOs in recent years, with some Cpls and MCpls in the last 15 to 20 years also - this is of course in addition to the CIC instructors.

Are you concerned about the quality of the CIC instructors?  

Not sure I understand your basic objections by this point but admit to being too exhausted to scan back over the last five pages to reread all the comments.

While I will agree that there are some so-called "useless articles" I've encountered in my brief contacts with the corps, and slightly less brief cadet "career", I never really found any reason to question the entire basis of the CIC foundation.

So far I can identify these basic objections:

a) "real" soldiers have to salute the CIC
b) CIC funding takes money away from the funding of "real" soldiers
c) the status of our officer class (for lack of better term) is lessened by the presence of the CIC

Certainly these are all debatable (as we have seen), though the CIC don't seem to be presenting a good fight in my opinion, other than "the CDS says so".    Perhaps the problem is that the results are rather intangible, and hard evidence would be difficult to present.

 

[King Arthur]

You will never agree that we are worth the same uniform or the same commission because you deeply believe that you are superior to the CIC because you had to suffer through hell during basic training and you can shoot a rifle.  There are no arguments that could be put forth to have you change your mind and I am sorry about that because we are worth it.

As for the money that the CCO receives, I think we have hit the heart of your frustration...  Considering that there are 70,000 people involved in this nation-wide organisation, I would say that it is very well used for the benefit that Canada gets out of it.

Funny how people that are short on arguments always bring that wonderful glass-house back...

 

[King Arthur]

The CIC dont seem to be presenting a good fight...

Hummmmm.... What is it that we should be arguing. That we are worth our commission or our uniform?  As far I am concerned, I have yet to read something to prove that we are not worth it.  Jealousy, envy, assumptions, etc. but no real argument to prove that we need to go through basic training with you to do our job.  We are commissioned members of the CF and according to the standards in place we are deserving.  I will certainly not argue the points made by ill-informed individuals.

 

[NavyGrunt]

Its actually got nothing to do with "superiority". It is the fact that you "commision" and rank and uniform hold you out as military and you are not. You do not require a commission, nor do you require a military rank. Maybe the uniform to foster interest in the CF. Mind you the boy scouts of America don't wear military esque uniforms.And my cousins who joined the Marines all caught the bug while they were boy scouts. So even the uniform thing to me is not needed.

As a side note on Cadets/child soldiers and shooting weapons. The last EX I was on had the Civil Air Guard there(American air cadets) and on the last day the cadets were allowed to shoot the .50 cal machine gun and M16's. Not just once. they were going through mag after mag and box after box ammo. I was a little jealous.

 

[King Arthur]

We are not military?  Could it be that the CDS has been paying the CIC as officers of the CF for so long without knowing what he was talking about?  C'mon people, we are not SOLDIERS, but we are OFFICERS of the CF whether you like it or not.

You do not require a commission or a uniform to go to war my friends, sadly...  we could be training civilians to do the same job that you are doing, the proof is that you were civilians before joining.  You then acquired the skills to do your jobs - just as we do.