FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[The Bread Guy]

U.S. trying to flog V-22's to Canada?

The U.S. government is eyeing Israel, Canada and the United Arab Emirates as possible initial foreign buyers of the V-22 Osprey, a tilt-rotor aircraft built by Boeing Co and Bell Helicopter, a top U.S. Marine Corps official told Reuters. Lieutenant General Terry Robling, deputy Marine Corps commandant for aviation, said U.S. officials were continuing to drive down the cost of the aircraft and hoped to sell it to allies overseas to keep the production line running past 2018 .... Washington is increasingly looking to foreign military sales to keep the cost of weapons systems from rising as the Pentagon cuts its own orders to strip $487 billion from its planned defense budgets over the next decade. Robling said Israel, Canada and the UAE had expressed interest in the aircraft, but had not received formal pricing and technical information for the Osprey ....

Imperial Valley Press, 26 Feb 12

 

[Haletown]

The Leafs will win back-to-back Cups playing on frozen ponds in hell before Canada even considers buying Ospreys.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[YZT580]

Good a/c for troop insertions but at 8500 plus per hour operating cost it is not a cost effective SAR tool, IMHO. 

 

[kj_gully]

in seeking replacements for fixed wing sar, it would be negligent not to inquire about capabilities and cost of osprey, if only to rule it out as a competitor...

 

[PuckChaser]

in seeking replacements for fixed wing sar, it would be negligent not to inquire about capabilities and cost of osprey, if only to rule it out as a competitor...

Especially if we don't even consider it, the opposition will pick it up as their alternative to whatever we choose to buy and say our process was not competitive. Kinda like the Super Hornet vs the F-35.

 

[Jammer]

Osprey for SAR? That should be under the heading of "dumbest thing heard thing heard today.

 

[aesop081]

Osprey for SAR?

Could you elaborate ?

I don't know how it would do at SAR back here but during OP MOBIlE, i was pretty happy knowing that the V-22s were there for CSAR.

 

[Jammer]

"C" SAR in the open desert is somewhat different than the conventional SAR that Canada does. Sure it has long legs...a definite advantage...waaaay to many moving parts though and a very spotty track record. In Iraq it had less than sixty percent availabilty rate on any given day for operations. It also takes up a fair bit of real estate on the ground if it does have to touch down.

 

[Zoomie]

that the V-22s were there for CSAR.

Hey hey now - we're talking about nice and easy SAR here.  You know, the gentleman's flying club, no risk or danger.  We don't even mutter the acronym CSAR in the halls of 101.

Seriously though - I don't see us ever standing up a CSAR capability.  We send our aircrews in to combat situations far too infrequently to justify the expense.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Back on the actual SAR topic at hand- I think an examination of the Osprey for FWSAR is at least warranted, whether we actually decide to go that route or not. It may give us some good insights.

 

[aesop081]

It also takes up a fair bit of real estate on the ground if it does have to touch down.

So would the C-27 but, at least, the V-22 could touch down more places.

 

[YZT580]

If it got there in one piece without a mechanical and could you imagine the downblast if it had to go into a hover over an evac?  And I believe that the price tag for one is significantly higher than the C27 or Vikings offer of a new DH5.  Better to buy more C130's the price is similar and at least we would have fleet commonality and the herc is about as reliable as they come.

 

[McG]

... could you imagine the downblast if it had to go into a hover over an evac? 

I find it interesting that a common objection to the V-22 as a FWSAR replacement is that the prop-wash would be too great if the AC went into a hover.  It is as if there is some other FWSAR replacement which can go into a hover without this problem … The V-22 should not be ruled out for FWSAR because it has a characteristic that makes it unsuitable as a RWSAR replacement.

If V-22 can do everything we are asking of a FWSAR platform, then it also brings the option to land the aircraft in places that no other FWSAR platform will be able.  If the V-22 is not able to support activities from a hover in the same way that a RWSAR platform does, it is possible our aircrew, SAR Techs and technical staff are smart enough to find other ways to exploit the platform’s hover capability to achieve similar effects.  I’d like to think the appropriate SME have already been engage to go through the exercise of determining how we might use a tilt-rotor platform (including potential new ways of operating).

If deciding to go with the V-22 (or not) as a FWSAR replacement, the decision is not about the platform’s ability to fill the rotary-wing role.  If the platform can meet the requirements for FWSAR, then it is a potential candidate.  Beyond that, it is a matter of deciding if the unique capabilities are worth the trade-offs (?speed, range, maintainability, reliability, etc?) and the higher costs (initial purchase and life-cycle).

The V-22 is an interesting option for FWSAR.  It may or may not be the right option.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I have no doubt that the Marines, company and DOD would be happy to lend us a V-22, crew and support to take part in some SAR exercises. We would have to pay operating costs likely but it would be a quick and cheap way to check it out, without any commitments. It would also assist in developing any written criteria for it’s use in SAR missions and future aircraft selection.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Dopey question from a not-even-close-to-expert:  is anyone considering using Ospreys in non-C SAR applications?  Usual Wikipedia caveats notwithstanding, it appears the Norwegians have rejected them as a replacement for Sea Kings in a SAR role:

.... The V-22 Osprey was a candidate for the Norwegian All Weather Search and Rescue Helicopter (NAWSARH) which is planned to replace the Westland Sea King Mk.43B of the Royal Norwegian Air Force in 2015.[115] The other candidates for the NAWSARH contract of 10-12 helicopters are AgustaWestland AW101 Merlin, Eurocopter EC225, NHIndustries NH90 and Sikorsky S-92.[116] The V-22 was eliminated from the competition in 2012.[117] ....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I could see a lot of reasons for their rejection that does not even involve their flight performance. Such as fitting onto existing vessels or platforms or not offering enough golden gummy bears to the right electoral district. Also Norway does not have the vast distances we have to deal with. Regardless it will be interesting to see what criteria they did not meet. Of course there would never be any political interference in a helicopter replacement program would there be?

 

[dapaterson]

Dopey question from a not-even-close-to-expert:  is anyone considering using Ospreys in non-C SAR applications?  Usual Wikipedia caveats notwithstanding, it appears the Norwegians have rejected them as a replacement for Sea Kings in a SAR role:

Then again, they're still looking at the S-92 (aka CH-148), so what does that say about their taste in aircraft?

 

[CountDC]

Good a/c for troop insertions but at 8500 plus per hour operating cost it is not a cost effective SAR tool, IMHO.

Is that Canadian Dollars you are talking about?

But actually - what all is in that price?  Is it just estimated fuel or is there other factors such as maintenance included? 

Amount of fuel used should be a factor considered when looking into replacement aircraft. 

 

[Good2Golf]

As MCG noted, if a V-22 can do everything that FWSAR operational (and supportability) requirements dictate, without ever tilting a rotor "in anger", then there is no reason to at not least consider it within that context...not by how poorly it might do the RWSAR role.  As others have alluded to, a Buffalo or C-27 or C130J for that matter, would have quite the downwash if they were to attempt to hover. 

In a purely fixed-wing mode, 260 kts cruise and 800 km operational radius with mission load (8,000 lb payload) is pretty appealing.  I suspect in-service support costs might be more a discriminating factor that whether the Osprey can fulfill the operational capability demanded by DND.  The fact that it could, in extremis, provide a vertical recovery capability, downwash notwithstanding is besides the point, vis a vis FWSAR missions.

At least it should be assessed to determine if removal from further consideration is warranted.

Regards
G2G

 

[kj_gully]

I'm pretty sure as the mandate is currently envisioned, the osprey is too slow and its legs are too short for FWSAR. It is a hybrid, with many of the characteristics of both rotary wing and fixed wing platform, but not capable of doing either as well as what we currently have. it does both admirably, and if we were to choose one platform for SAR, and only one, then this is an obvious choice. but for the role we are currently looking for, to fly to Alert, Search for a co-operative target (i.e. elt), deploy SAR techs and equipment, as quickly as possible the Osprey falls far short of our requirement. The suppositions are covered pretty clearly here . Whether the suppositions are valid, or if we should be positioning resources in new locations during this time of fiscal restraint and down right sizing is not for me to say, but if there's C 27's on sale somewheres, I say lets grab em.

- mod edit to fix link -