FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[kj_gully]

osprey 275 ish knots
c 27 spartan 325 knots

would be kinda cool...

 

[Journeyman]

The only downside that I see if the inevitable mixing of helo and multi  pilots flying the machines. It would be like dogs and cats suddenly getting along

As long as they continued to mutually agree that fighter pilots squirrels are irritating....

 

[mariomike]

Unlimited liability does not fit well with civilian employee insurance plans or OHS regulations, methinks...

As far as ORNGE flight paramedics are concerned, their right to refuse work is limited if the work refusal would directly endanger the health and safety of another person. Ref: Occupational Health and Safety Act, Section 43.
It is understood ORNGE is not trained in SAR - and I am not saying they should. But, Toronto has trained some of their paramedics in HUSAR and marine - ice SAR.

Edit to add

The civilian companies are slowly expanding on their own and I believe will take over the SAR scene one day. STARS in Alberta is another example. ...rumour has it the have recently installed hoists on their helo's...

..RUMOUR

“I can say STARS’ goals were established to find an aircraft that would fly further, faster, have greater patient capacity and de-icing, and eventually hoisting capability,” says Cameron Heke, senior public relations advisor for STARS.":
http://www.helicoptersmagazine.com/content/view/2174/61/

 

[Civvymedic]

I have to agree with KJ_Gully. Totally depending on civillian SAR would be a nightmare. OHS regulations, WSIB claims and public service unions would make it a nightmare for those trying to get the job done. Training and standards I think would slip, you just woulden't be able to maintain the same level of service and discipline. You do need the Military to sit in the "big chair" sometimes in these situations. I have gotten in trouble a few times for stepping up and doing what I thought was right but violated some safety rules. The best was getting in trouble from one end, and getting the Medal of bravery from the GG for the exact same act.  : ...on the other end. Putting SAR completely into civillian hands is a BAD idea!!!!

 

[McG]

In an effort to put this thread back on track - I submit to you an article outlining the CV-22 as a RWSAR and FWSAR replacement.

I think Canada has room for tilt-rotor SAR, RWSAR and FWSAR within our requirements.  I would be surprised if we have room for all three in our budget.
I like the idea of V-22 as a hybrid capability, but is it worth the cost if that cost is either of RWSAR or FWSAR?

 

[AAF]

I think that the idea of purchasing the V-22 for arctic capability in the SAR role would be ideal...give us a positive for any disasters that happen up there and give us a quicker response

 

[cphansen]

What about resurrecting the Canadian CL-84 Dynavert. It never was adopted by anyone in spite of all the test pilots liking and supporting it. It would need a lot of changes but it would be a Canadian piece of kit and may have potential for roles other than SAR

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/canadair_dynavert.php has some info on the aircraft

 

[KevinB]

I'm a big fan of the V-22, especially in a CSAR application, anything faster that a UH/MH-60 is a good thing when green tracer is welcoming you...

  That said I've always been amazed at the lack of combat application in the Canadian SAR role -- with a few noteable exceptions most SAR techs are of a VERY Blue AirForce mentality

 

[aesop081]

VERY Blue AirForce mentality

Go ask Ghadaffi or the Taliban about our air force mentality...........

:

 

[Good2Golf]

Go ask Ghadaffi or the Taliban about our air force mentality...........

:

I think he's referring to the very light blue view of SAR, vice the cam green version of JPR/CR/CSAR/SFR... (joint pers recovery / combat recovery / combat SAR / special forces recovery).

:camo:

 

[Zoomie]

About half of the ST's we employ are ex-green pers - some with SF experience.  The other half were medics, techs, pilots,divers etc.  The light blue mentality is beaten into them over their time in the orange suit.  When making the transfer they all get kicked back to Corporal - senior NCOs in the orange suit have spent a good amount of time blue, hence the wide spread acceptance of RCAF ways.

 

[Journeyman]

The light blue mentality is beaten into them over their time in the orange suit.

Or rather, the cam pattern mentality is eased out of them in a Flight Safety-mandated, one-to-a-room, four-star hotel.  :nod:

 

[Edward Campbell]

News, I guess, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/f-35-maker-lockheed-martin-set-to-bid-on-search-and-rescue-planes/article2234859/

F-35 maker Lockheed Martin set to bid on search and rescue planes

MURRAY BREWSTER
OTTAWA— The Canadian Press

Published Sunday, Nov. 13, 2011

Lockheed Martin, builder of the controversial F-35 stealth fighter, is lining up to make a bid on the Harper government's planned purchase of fixed-wing search-and-rescue planes — an idea that's apparently being warmly received in deficit-minded Ottawa.

The giant U.S. manufacturer, the world's largest defence contractor, is preparing a bid to build more Hercules transports for the air force, say several defence and industry sources.

A spokesman confirmed the interest, but was coy on the details.

“We look forward to seeing the detailed statement of requirements and look forward to offering a cost-effective, affordable solution,” Peter Simmons, a spokesman for Lockheed Martin, told The Canadian Press.

The entrance of the Bethesda, Md.-based corporation is bound to cause waves within the political and defence communities.

Aside from the continuing debate over the stealth fighter, the company was the recipient of a multibillion-dollar, sole-sourced contract for cargo planes and irked Industry Canada when it came to appropriation of regional benefits. The department was so put out, it held up cabinet approval of the F-35 for about a year.

The Royal Canadian Air Force will soon take delivery the last of 17 brand-new C-130J transports, ordered by the Harper government through that 2006 sole-source contract.

It already uses H-model Hercules transports for rescue missions and defence sources said some within the air force see the purchase of newer ones as natural fit at time of shrinking budgets.

The Defence Department is currently studying its requirements for the fixed-wing search-and-rescue replacements.

Defence insiders are split on when the federal cabinet will release a notice of proposed procurement — or even a specific request for proposals. The Conservative strategy doesn't envision replacing those planes until 2015, even though both Defence Minister Peter MacKay and associate defence minister Julian Fantino have named it as a top priority.

The $3.1-billion program has been delayed almost a decade.

It was Paul Martin's Liberal government that first proposed replacing both the existing Hercules and the nearly 50-year-old C-115 Buffalos, which hunt for missing people among the mountain folds of Western Canada.

Despite repeated promises, the Conservatives have failed to get the program on track and critics have accused them of being as ham-fisted as the Liberals with their pledge to replace the Sea King helicopters.

The search-plane proposal was sidelined by a combination of material focus on the Afghan war and charges that the air force's original statement of requirement was rigged in favour of the Italian-made C-27J an accusation both the Defence Department and the maker, Aleina, have strongly denied.

Nevertheless, the Harper government ordered the National Research Council to review the requirements to make sure there was no bias. The report found the air force had limited its scope.

A spokesman for Mr. Fantino said a review of the report is still underway.

“Our government recognizes that quick and efficient Search and Rescue service is critical to many Canadians,” said Chris McCluskey.

“That is why we are looking at all options to ensure the best possible equipment and service.”

Once it is released, a request for proposals is expected to draw interest from not only Lockheed Martin and Aleina, but European-based Airbus Military, Bombardier in Montreal and perhaps Viking Air, another Canadian company.

Hercules supporters within National Defence say the government could save on training, infrastructure and long-term support costs by sticking with one fleet.

Lockheed Martin currently builds a search-and-rescue variant of the Hercules — known as the HC-130 — for the U.S. coast guard. Mr. Simmons wouldn't say if that was what the company plans to offer to Canada.

Ontario New Democrat MP Matthew Kellway said he's worried the government will be tempted to short-circuit the process with another sole-source contact.

“Lockheed Martin has every right to bid on this contract, but where I'm concerned is how it could tie into the F-35,” Kellway said.

“Despite the bravado, the Conservatives are in deep trouble on the F-35 file and need to find a way to save themselves from enormous political embarrassment.”

Delivering long-delayed search planes quickly might be a way to accomplish that, he suggested.

But Mr. McCluskey said the government is committed to an open competition.

“Our government demonstrated its ongoing commitment to a competitive, open and transparent process,” he said, pointing to consultation with the defence industry that took place in the summer 2010.

There are obvious supply and maintenance advantages to an all Herc solution ...

 

[Zoomie]

Imagine chasing around patients as the roll through the woods ;D

The front-enders need to get their funny stories from somewhere. 

 

[kj_gully]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/01/06/pol-cp-search-planes-contract.html




*link fixed by mods*

thanks!!!

 

[Haletown]

Wonder if/how this peeing match south of the border will play into the procurement . . .


http://tinyurl.com/7h7db76

 

[kj_gully]

interesting, but I am less certain that SAR will get a unique aircraft. I wonder how many j hercs 3.7 billion would buy?

*edited to add* more than enough apparently
will try this link thing again....

http://www.casr.ca/doc-gov-c130j-hercules.htm

 

[dapaterson]

interesting, but I am less certain that SAR will get a unique aircraft. I wonder how many j hercs 3.7 billion would buy?

*edited to add* more than enough apparently
will try this link thing again....

http://www.casr.ca/doc-gov-c130j-hercules.htm

Keep in mind that the $3.7B figure likely includes 20 years of in-service support; the actual funds available to buy aircraft are probably less than half that amount (when you account for training costs, infrastructure costs, initial spares etc).

 

[Kirkhill]

Given that much of the infrastructure, training, ops and maint capital costs have already been accounted for under the existing C130J plan, what would be the impact if TB/DND/RCAF decided just to go with additional C130s?

I know from previous posts that the C130J couldn't do low and slow through the mountains but how about buying an additional 6 pack of CH-147Fs for that role?

 

[kj_gully]

a third helo in the SAR fleet? No thanks- but maybe the loss of low slow fixed wing search is offset by the increased capability of CH 149, and advances in technology? I loved Buffalo SAR, but for the sake of a common fleet, maybe the new herc, with a sensor suite, could replace the unpressurized buff with visual search no NVG capability? To be clear, I think a dedicated SAR platform is best, but maybe in terms of training and maintaining more jays might be a reasonable compromise, if they buy enough- i.e. more than they want to.