• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

  • Thread starter Thread starter aesop081
  • Start date Start date
Kirkhill said:
So if that is the case couldn't we offload some of the demand from the MPA fleet and task it to another fleet like the FWSAR?

There are no demands on the MPA fleet that can be offloaded onto the the SAR fleet.

Then you wouldn't have to call the MPAs off their patrols to assist in SAR ops as often.

It doesn't happen that often.

such as Sovereignty Patrols and Assistance to OGDs

There are already a multitude of assets doing these things.

and given the sunk costs of establishing training and logistics systems -

What you propose only increases the costs of training and logistics.


 
Sorry, I forgot.  ;D

All problems can be solved by more Auroras.  ;D :salute:

Cheers.
 
Kirkhill - don't be discouraged.  I like the direction that you are taking, it is the out-of-the-box direction that we need to lean towards.

While FWSAR and LRP are worlds apart and neither can do the others job effectively - why not look towards a future that has us flying an airframe that can do both?  We currently use an airframe that effectively carries out FWSAR, AAR and TAL (CC-130E/H). Some of the airframes that FWSAR has on the horizon are MPA/LRP variants too (CASA and EADS).  If Bombardier truly was interested in military aviation they would jump on the band-wagon and produce a true North American turbo-prop that can fill all these future niches - instead of just offering up their wholly inadequate passenger plane (Q400).
 
Not discouraged Zoomie,  it's far too nice a day out here in  Lethbridge for that.  We're seeing the sun for the first time in a couple of weeks.

One thing that I was thinking of adding to an earlier post was that I was not intending to make a case to dumb down the FWSAR SOR so that a low-wing aircraft (like Bombardier's stuff) would qualify.  In fact I was thinking explicitly about the many roles that the Herc has fulfilled (and to those that you have mentioned I would add the Talons and Spectres for their ability see what is going on on the ground) and the possibility of the Mini-Herc being employed in some similar roles.

But thanks for the ENcouragement.

Cheers.

Edited to remove smartarse comment that demonstrates Cdn Aviator is right and I don't know what I am talking about.  The Q400 is actually a high-wing monoplane......oh well.
 
Aviator:

Nobody is doubting your credentials, least of all me.  Equally nobody will confuse me with an expert.  As I have often noted in the past my "bright ideas" usually indicate that I am a "dollar short and a day late" in the ideas sweepstakes.  And this current case seems to be no exception......

As I have no doubt you, Zoomie and G2G are aware, the USCG pipped me at the post back in August of 2010 when they equipped their EADS CN-235 (HC-144A Ocean Sentry) with a Mission Support Pallet that supported the Ocean Eye AN/APS-143C(V)3 as well as a SAFIRE EO/IR turret - (I believe your CP-140 is similarly equipped - in addition to a number of other systems - and that the CH-148 will also be similarly equipped although perhaps with the AN/APS-143B(V)3).  All of this while endeavouriing to maintain the multi-role capabilities of the aircraft itself:

The Ocean Sentry plays a crucial role in Coast Guard aviation missions that include maritime patrol, intelligence/surveillance/reconnaissance, cargo and personnel transport, and disaster relief.

Read more: http://www.asdnews.com/news/29963/EADS_awarded_USCG_contract_for_HC-144A_Maritime_Patrol_Aircraft.htm#ixzz1OQQZjqFg

Now I understand the dogfight going on between EADS and Alenia (with Bombardier and Viking on the outside looking in) so I make no comment on which airframe is best suited for which task and what compromises are likely to be necessary and possible. 

My interest is simply in understanding how best we can deploy sensors as broadly as possible so that they can be tactically, operationally and strategically useful.

The fact that these types of radars (if I include the Lynx AN/APY-8 as a similar capability) are being hung from Auroras, Predators, King Airs, Fire Scouts and many other rotary and fixed wing aircraft - not to mention LTAs - suggests strongly to me that:

a) they are a mature capability
b) they are a valuable capability
c) they are a cost-effective capability
d) they do not impose a significant weight/aerodynamic penalty.

Having said that some other questions come to mind:

Would it be necessary to add a SENSO/AESOP to every FWSAR crew?  How about a TACCO?
On the other hand could the sensors be operated remotely by ground personnel as they are employed when used with UAVs?
The ASTOR/Global Express programme seems to use a hybrid mix that minimizes the personnel carried on board.

Finally, with respect to the value of a platform with capabilities less than those of the Aurora, and ignoring Provincial Airlines MPA King Airs with their AN/APS 504(V)5 there is this (from Wikipedia - sorry):

CP-140A Arcturus

Lacking the expensive, heavy and sensitive anti-submarine warfare as well as the anti-surface warfare fittings of the CP-140 Aurora, the Arcturus was more fuel efficient and was used for crew training duties (such as touch-and-go landing practice), general maritime surface reconnaissance (detecting drug operations, smuggling of illegal immigrants, fisheries protection patrols, pollution monitoring, etc.), search-and-rescue assistance and Arctic sovereignty patrols. The Arcturus did possess a superior AN/APS-507 surface search radar, incorporating modern functions such as track-while-scan that the Aurora's AN/APS-506 radar lacks but the Acturus did not have an integrated mission computer, or mission systems. It did, however, maintain the same military communications suite as the CP-140 Aurora.[citation needed]

Why would similarly equipped  FWSAR candidates not be equally useful both if deployed below 60 and in support of sovereignty operations in the Arctic.

As to the concern that aircraft on standing patrols would not be available for SAR duties, might that not be alleviated by the AAR capability and ensuring that at each deployment base there are sufficient aircraft to ensure a Quick Reaction aircraft is on the runway while the patrolling AC is in the air?  In fact, with a suitable sensor equipped aircraft in the air (and a SARtech Tm on board) might that not reduce the time to locate the target in trouble?

Cheers.
 
suggests strongly to me that:

a) they are a mature capability
b) they are a valuable capability
c) they are a cost-effective capability
d) they do not impose a significant weight/aerodynamic penalty.

I would agree with that. I do not beleive this is the issue i was aluding to.


Would it be necessary to add a SENSO/AESOP to every FWSAR crew?

As far as i know, that is the intent.

On the other hand could the sensors be operated remotely by ground personnel as they are employed when used with UAVs?

I suppose it could be done but i personaly place alot of value on being (actualy) there to react to situations.


Why would similarly equipped  FWSAR candidates not be equally useful both if deployed below 60 and in support of sovereignty operations in the Arctic.

Unless you are willing to arm FWSAR assets, they do not represent much of a deterence.

As to the concern that aircraft on standing patrols would not be available for SAR duties,

I'm not sure i understand what you mean by "standing patrols".

might that not be alleviated by the AAR capability

We have a much limited tanker capability as it is. Now you want to spend money on new FWSAR aircraft AND more tankers ?  I'm not debating the utility of it, even without much an an airborne SAR background i can see it for myself. I am doubting the realism of it as our resources, financial and PYs, are finite.


In fact, with a suitable sensor equipped aircraft in the air (and a SARtech Tm on board) might that not reduce the time to locate the target in trouble?

No debate on the sensors. My contention is that FWSAR is already far too overdue. To add even more into the concept of operations will only delay it further and increase costs to a point where it will no longer be affordable. Some of the missions you propose are already being done by other assets (aircraft and otherwise). What you propose is, IMHO, the 100% solution and is is, again IMHO, unattainable.
 
CDN Aviator said:
I would agree with that. I do not beleive this is the issue i was aluding to. 
 

My error.


As far as i know, that is the intent.

Thanks.  I told you I was playing catch-up.

I suppose it could be done but i personaly place alot of value on being (actualy) there to react to situations.

I agree wrt to the reaction. I suppose I was more thinking along the lines of simultaneously linking the data back to maintain the National Maritime Picture.


Unless you are willing to arm FWSAR assets, they do not represent much of a deterence.

I wasn't thinking about arming the FWSAR.  Its sovereignty value, as far as I am concerned, is in its presence, its ability to observe activities and to demonstrate the Government of Canada's ability to intervene in a variety of ways up to, but not including, armed intervention.  However there would be nothing to prevent the FWSAR from staying on station, assuming a C&C role - or at least a recce role - and vectoring armed assets to the situation.  Those assets could be anything from an RCMP ERT on board an AOPS to a CF-35 or even an CP-140.

I'm not sure i understand what you mean by "standing patrols".

Typically I understand a "standing patrol" to be a planned, regularly scheduled patrol, in a particular geographic area, often with a pre-planned route, to gather information and update situational awareness.  Such patrols, I believe, not only gather useful information, but also offer valuable training experience for people needing to accumulate hours to build and maintain skills.

We have a much limited tanker capability as it is. Now you want to spend money on new FWSAR aircraft AND more tankers ?  I'm not debating the utility of it, even without much an an airborne SAR background i can see it for myself. I am doubting the realism of it as our resources, financial and PYs, are finite.
.

And that is why I am suggesting that the FWSAR be equipped with both a probe to allow it to be refuelled and a Buddy-Pack type drogue to permit the transfer of fuel to supporting aircraft.  In fact I wonder if the Aurora couldn't benefit from both of those capabilities as well.

The advantage of the AAR capability with the FWSAR is that it would improve the mission effectiveness of the FWSAR and the effectiveness of supporting aircraft.

One of the disadvantages of the current fleet of 2 (or is it 3?)  CC-150 MRTTs and the pair of CC-130H tankers is that there are too few of them and they are centrally held.  Therefore they need to transit the same, or longer, distances as the aircraft they are supporting and they cover the ground slower.  All the while they are burning gas that could be more effectively employed by the supporting aircraft.

If the FWSAR was AAR equipped then it would permit fuel stored at the fringes to be made airborne to top up centrally based aircraft transitting to the response site.  This would extend the range of response by the Government and decrease the reaction time as the aircraft could deploy faster without having to worry about husbanding fuel for loitering or wasting time (and more fuel) by landing, refuelling and taking off again.


No debate on the sensors. My contention is that FWSAR is already far too overdue. To add even more into the concept of operations will only delay it further and increase costs to a point where it will no longer be affordable. Some of the missions you propose are already being done by other assets (aircraft and otherwise). What you propose is, IMHO, the 100% solution and is is, again IMHO, unattainable.

No argument on the FWSAR delivery schedule either.  WRT the sensors: perhaps it is enough to buy an aircraft that can support the addition of sensors and other capabilities over time.  As noted, many platforms are flying with these types of sensors and equally, many platforms are fitted with AAR capabilities.  Not all of them were fitted as original equipment.

Thanks for the considered responses.

Cheers.
 
Kirkhill said:
Would it be necessary to add a SENSO/AESOP to every FWSAR crew?  How about a TACCO?
I won't wade into much of your post - as the FWSAR SOR has not been released and it would be improper for me to make any posts that might be taken as official.
As to the AESOP on board issue, as much as we would love to have them, I don't think the AF PY's could handle it.  Adding an extra body to a crew equates to another 10 members per unit.  Most likely what we will see is the current complement with the ACSO and FE sharing the duties of handling everything in the back.  In the case of para-drops etc, the pilots would be able to take over and the NFP could slave the gear as required.  In the SAR world, we are only actively searching in a small % of the airborne time - the rest being attributed to the actual rescue or deployment of assets.  A veritable jack of all trades is what a FWSAR crew needs - someone who can dispatch jumpers, reconfigure the cabin, act as LM, conduct A/B checks, refuel the aircraft, etc - this has been best served by the FE in our world.
 
Zoomie said:
I don't think the AF PY's could handle it. 

I hear you on that one but i think that the recent explosive growth of the trade makes it manageable. Time will tell i guess.
 
The latest from MERX - an "industry consultation day" coming 16 Aug 11 (highlights mine):
.... INVITATION

The Government of Canada is now ready to engage industry representatives on August 16, 2011, in the National Capital Region, on the next steps to achieve the best approach to deliver FWSAR capability.

Industry representatives interested in the FWSAR project must confirm their attendance by contacting the undersigned before August 15, 2011, at 11:59AM. Attendance at this event is strictly reserved to properly registered industry representatives. Further details will be provided upon registration.

OBJECTIVES

The Government of Canada will consider all options to ensure the best possible SAR service to Canadians and best value for taxpayers. The main goals of this consultation include:  reviewing project status; reviewing the updated requirements; and seeking Industry opinions on Alternate Service Delivery options.

During the consultation, Government of Canada officials will discuss the outcome of the NRC independent review (http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/pri/2/final-report-eng.asp), and provide a summary of the revised key requirements followed by a discussion on potential procurement approaches for FWSAR including Alternate Service Delivery options.

Subsequent to the plenary information session, one-on-one meetings with individual firms will be offered, if requested, to discuss and answer specific questions.  Participants will be invited to prepare discussion papers on the possible approaches available to procure FWSAR capability. Industry will be given four weeks following the consultation session to provide their feedback ....

Independent review also attached in case link doesn't work.
 
Re:  the above-mentioned MERX invitation to the "industry consultation day", is anybody reading this part:
.... The Government of Canada will consider all options to ensure the best possible SAR service to Canadians and best value for taxpayers. The main goals of this consultation include:  reviewing project status; reviewing the updated requirements; and seeking Industry opinions on Alternate Service Delivery options.

During the consultation, Government of Canada officials will discuss the outcome of the NRC independent review .... and provide a summary of the revised key requirements followed by a discussion on potential procurement approaches for FWSAR including Alternate Service Delivery options ....
to mean the CF's considering privatizing SAR?  Or is it more "leasing-vs-buying?"?  Or both?  Some observers out there seem to be.
 
They make comparisons to our current use of civilians to augment the RWSAR program.  This is not as permanent as they make out.  Apart from the huge SAR system that exists off the coast of Newfoundland (Cougar helicopters), any other civilian rotor assets are individually tasked by JRCC to conduct pickups, not rescues.  This happens more often in the high arctic where it is more advantageous for a local asset to pickup an errant backpacker.  How this would work effectively for FWSAR - I don't know.  If they want ASD to happen, they would need to go into it 100%, not piecemeal.  Purchase the aircraft, station them, train them, have them sit there for hours - waiting and waiting. 
 
Zoomie said:
They make comparisons to our current use of civilians to augment the RWSAR program.  This is not as permanent as they make out.  Apart from the huge SAR system that exists off the coast of Newfoundland (Cougar helicopters), any other civilian rotor assets are individually tasked by JRCC to conduct pickups, not rescues.  This happens more often in the high arctic where it is more advantageous for a local asset to pickup an errant backpacker.  How this would work effectively for FWSAR - I don't know.  If they want ASD to happen, they would need to go into it 100%, not piecemeal.  Purchase the aircraft, station them, train them, have them sit there for hours - waiting and waiting.

Would CASARA and their role fit in with what you described above?
 
CASARA is an excellent partner in the whole SAR picture in Canada.  It is a key partner and is sometimes overlooked.  That being said, they are not in a position to conduct rescues - they are a search asset.  What this article is pointing towards is the complete picture from launch to EMS tranfer of the survivors - all through ASD.  It is entirely possible, but I really don't think it can be done at a cheaper cost.  We have learned through experience how using ASD for training our pilots just ends up costing us more in the end.
 
Hopefully, our recent experience with uav will come home to our benefit. Forget putting AESOP on the Rescue Callsign, UAV can do search missions and provide onscene radio relay for the rescue assets following up. Presumably could even deliver a limited survival payload. As for civilianizing SAR, it will lead to a reduced level of service, as a company cannot afford to spend the money training to the level that we do now. Maybe we don't need to be trained as well, but who wants to find out?
 
And the political backlash has begun ....
Two federal members of parliament from Newfoundland and Labrador are alarmed at news that the federal government is looking at privatizing some elements of search and rescue services.  "The notion of privatization of search and rescue capability is abhorrent," said Jack Harris, the MP for St. John's East and the NDP defense critic.  A statement from the government on Thursday said that the Department of National Defence, which is responsible for fixed-wing search and rescue, is looking at all options to ensure the best possible equipment and service.  Harris acknowledged that DND has been wanting to replace its aging Buffalo and Hercules aircraft for nearly a decade, but Harris said that shouldn't mean privatization.  "The first priority of the Canadian Forces is the defence of Canada and the protection of Canadians," said Harris. "That's what we have a Canadian Forces for. And search and rescue is a part of the mandate of the Canadian Forces. So the idea that they're proposing to contract out this core responsibility to private industry, they're really letting down the people of this country on their mandate." ....
Source:  CBC.ca, 22 Jul 11
 
kj_gully said:
Hopefully, our recent experience with uav will come home to our benefit. Forget putting AESOP on the Rescue Callsign, UAV can do search missions and provide onscene radio relay for the rescue assets following up. Presumably could even deliver a limited survival payload. As for civilianizing SAR, it will lead to a reduced level of service, as a company cannot afford to spend the money training to the level that we do now. Maybe we don't need to be trained as well, but who wants to find out?

Gully, logical thinking will be ruthlessly pursued and dealt with accordingly!  Start SERE ops now!  ;)
 
Back
Top