FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[MarkOttawa]

Haletown: Actually it's space in the Ottawa Citizen.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Haletown]

oops  . . . .    my bads.

My apologies to the Ottawa Citizen for equating then with the Globe & Mail

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

I_am_John_Galt: I use the word "misleading" in the text.  "Economy with the truth" is commonly used as a polite way of saying "lying".

Mark
Ottawa

I am well aware of that, it's just that after this and some of his other articles I am starting to wonder if we should start using some plainer language 'cuz he doesn't seem to be getting the message!  We can go on about the difference between operational capabilities and (often rather desperate) marketing hype here (and on The Torch) all we want but it doesn't change the fact that at the end of the day it's his version that a lot more eyes are seeing (in the Citizen, etc.).

 

[kj_gully]

I am naive, but I don't understand why reporters need to misinform for no good purpose, it is almost propaganda vandalism to so cloud the true picture. I hope this EADS style crying isn't continued, I for one am ecstatic to open My Airforce. ca and read the C27 is coming to America. All the hype about the earlier C27 models problems for the US are now moot, and as Zoomie pointed out, commonality could ease the timeline as is happening for c17 and 130J purchases. Hopefully we can "strike while the iron is hot" and piggyback some for our poor SAR buffs and Herc's, B4 they start having uncommanded prop reversals and go down in a tangled mess.

Gully,out.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Blaming Afstan again, and suggesting more money for the CF than any government will realistically allocate (shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act):

Need rescuing? wait for a weekday
Colin Kenny , Calgary Herald, June 26
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=751dcb20-f093-4b78-86b5-127afdeddaa0

If you are a foundering fisherman off the Grand Banks, or a lost child in the Alberta foothills, or a downed pilot in remote territory outside of Yellowknife or a missing boater on the Great Lakes, here is my advice to you:

Do yourself a favour. Wait another five years or so to get in that kind of desperate trouble. Until then, the government of Canada isn't going to have the kind of resources it should have in place to rescue you.

One more thing. Don't go missing outside office hours. Canada's current search-and-rescue operations tend to go a bit limp on weekends and in the evenings. Urgency takes a breather in the interests of dollars and cents...

Even this government's Liberal predecessors -- notoriously parsimonious when it came to military spending -- recognized Canadians need an effective search and rescue capacity and in 2003 declared its upgrade a priority. Unfortunately, that government didn't approve the purchase of needed replacement fixed wing aircraft before it left office. The project was still in limbo when an election was called.

Priorities don't disappear when governments change -- or shouldn't. The Fixed Wing Search and Rescue Aircraft Project seemed to in good hands when the Conservatives announced during the campaign that the heart of their military policy would be "Canada First."

If there is anything that is "Canada First," it is maintaining a capable search and rescue capacity for its citizens and others visiting the country.

But then the new government expanded Canada's commitment in Afghanistan, which has turned out to be a much more expensive proposition than expected [emphasis added].

As a result -- shhh!! -- the Canada First policy has become a Canada Second policy, perhaps for the next five years, perhaps for much longer.

Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor has ordered a review of Canada's Search and Rescue capacity in the wake of growing doubts about the government's claims that Canada will not run short of fixed wing aircraft to provide adequate Search and Rescue.

Fixed-wing aircraft are essential to Search and Rescue. They can go farther and faster than helicopters and keep the situation in hand while helicopters, ships or ground vehicles are en route. Most of the fixed wing aircraft the Canadian Forces has been using for search and rescue in recent years -- Buffaloes and Hercules -- are old.

The government announced purchases of 17 new Hercules in June 2006, but these will initially be needed in Afghanistan and will not be available for search and rescue in Canada until our commitment in Afghanistan ends in 2010 -- if it does end then.

The government claims it will make more of the current fleet of ungrounded Hercules available for search and rescue by purchasing C17s and C130Js for moving troops and equipment over long distances, an argument that has a degree of truth to it. But those Hercules are going to require more and more maintenance -- like the infamous Sea King Helicopters that spent many hours in the shop for every hour they spent in the air.

Meanwhile, skimping on search and rescue makes responses to potential tragedies more dangerous on weekends. While search-and-rescue squadrons must be ready to fly within 30 minutes of any emergency during daytime working hours from Monday to Friday, the maximum response time is two hours in the evening hours and on weekends.

The Canadian Press recently reported that the Department of National Defence has estimated that as much as $2 billion would have to be added to DND's budget to ensure a 30-minute response capacity around the clock, seven days a week...

Sooner or later a Canadian government is going to have to recognize that we Canadians are spending far less on our military capacity than most other reasonable mid-sized countries. At home or abroad, there is a price to pay for that [emphasis added].

Senator Colin Kenny is Chair of the Senate Committee on National Security and Defence. He can be reached via email at kennyco@sen.parl.gc.ca

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Beat you (for once) 

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/63642.0.html

 

[MarkOttawa]

A useful comment on the article at Colin's topic:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/63642/post-582935.html#msg582935

I was just trying to keep the needle in the same thread :-*!

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Spencer100]

Looks like this is still alive.

Fair dealings.........etc.


Ottawa to replace aircraft
Some search and rescue planes are more than 40 years old
By MURRAY BREWSTER The Canadian Press | 4:42 AM
ADVERTISEMENT



OTTAWA — The new commander of Canada’s air force says proposals to replace the country’s aging fleet of fixed-wing search and rescue aircraft will soon be put before the government.

The Conservatives have already spent nearly $13-billion on other new aircraft, notably the gigantic C-17 Globemaster heavy-lift transport.

But Lt.-Gen. Angus Watt, who took over air force command on Thursday, said replacing fixed-wing search and rescue planes is a priority.

"Right now for fixed-wing search and rescue we are relying on two of the oldest fleets, which are the Hercules and the Buffalo," he said following sweltering induction ceremony on the tarmac at Canadian Aviation Museum.

"We can continue to extend their lives and they can continue to fly safely, but at a certain point it becomes uneconomical to keep refurbishing."

The former Liberal government proposed to replace the aircraft, some of which are more than 40 years old, with 15 brand new planes.

But the $2.1-billion program has been stalled within the bureaucracy and sidelined by big-ticket purchases, such as the C-17s, the medium-lift C-130J, and the CH-47 Chinook battlefield transport helicopters, all of which are seen as essential for the war in Afghanistan.

Last winter, Watt’s predecessor, Lt.-Gen Steve Lucas, told a House of Commons committee that the air force was looking at putting new engines on the Buffalos, which bear a striking resemblance to Second World War medium bombers.

"What we’re trying to do is find that point where we can draw down those older planes and draw up new airplanes and we’re putting proposals in front of the government to that end," said Watt, a former Sea King pilot who’s also done a deputy-command stint in Afghanistan.

"It takes, from the time we sign the contract (to delivery), three years. The key problem is getting to the signature on the contract. It’s hard to predict how long that will take. The sooner the better."

When the project was first announced in the spring of 2004, it was expected the last of the new planes would be on the tarmac by April 2009.

The EADS-CASA C-295 and the Alenia C-27J Spartan are believed to be the main contenders, but there has also been talk that Montreal-based Bombardier is interested in bidding.

 

[MarkOttawa]

A link for the post immediately above:
http://thechronicleherald.ca/Canada/849805.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[YZT580]

If the Buffalo works why not buy new ones.  If Viking can resurrect the DH6 I'm sure they would do the same for the Buf provided the price was right!

 

[geo]

Short answer.... it would only be a very "short" production run.
Most other countries that bought the Buffalo 40 some years ago have phased em out and gone on to other aircraft that meet their regional requirements... So any company that were to tool up a Buff production run would be doing it for the CFs order - ONLY... and that would be a very pricey $$$$$$$$$$$$ option.

 

[YZT580]

I can dream can't I.  It was a great airplane for its time.  But why Bombardier are they thinking of supplying the 415.  Canada went out of the amphib. search and rescue business when they disposed of the Alberts.  Except for the Otters on floats of course.

 

[geo]

well.... who knows?

The CL415 does have some interesting characteristics and landing on water is only one of them.
It's entirely up to the CF to determine what they want in their SAR platform.

 

[I_am_John_Galt]

any company that were to tool up a Buff production run would be doing it for the CFs order - ONLY... and that would be a very pricey $$$$$$$$$$$$ option.

FWIW, the company that has the rights to all of the old DHC aircraft (up to the DHC-7/Dash 7) is based in Victoria, BC (Viking Air ... have we mentioned that already?), so at least CANCON wouldn't be an issue ... I can't help but wonder what kind of numbers they would need to make it profitable to remanufacture the existing airframes...

 

[George Wallace]

FWIW, the company that has the rights to all of the old DHC aircraft (up to the DHC-7/Dash 7) is based in Victoria, BC (Viking Air ... have we mentioned that already?), ........

Yes.  In yet another thread.

 

[WannaBeFlyer]

This seemed to fit into the context of this thread....

Feds scope out Brazilian Buffalos for spare parts
http://www.ottawasun.com/News/National/2007/10/22/4595130-sun.html
By CP


In order to keep its 40-year-old Buffalo search-and-rescue planes in the air, Canadian air force planners are crossing their fingers that they can get their hands on Brazil's fleet of CC-115s, which may soon be retired.

The air force intends to keep its six twin-engine Buffalos flying until 2015. But an internal Defence Department analysis warns that extending the life of the aircraft will be "precarious" because of dwindling spare parts.

One alternative would be to "investigate the potential retirement of the Brazilian Buffalo fleet," said an undated options analysis obtained by the New Democrats under access to information laws. "This could be a potential source of spares for some critically needed components."

 

[GAP]

Air force wants retiring Brazilian planes to keep aging Canadian Buffalos going
Article Link

OTTAWA - In order to keep its 40-year-old Buffalo search and rescue planes in the air, Canadian air force planners are crossing their fingers that they can get their hands on Brazil's fleet of CC-115s, which may soon be retired.

The air force intends to keep its six twin-engine Buffalos, relatively slow planes that operate primarily on the West Coast, flying until 2015.

But an internal Defence Department analysis warns that extending the life of the already antiquated aircraft will be "precarious" because of dwindling spare parts.

One alternative would be to "investigate the potential retirement of the Brazilian Buffalo fleet," said an undated options analysis obtained by the federal New Democrats under access to information laws.

"This could be a potential source of spares for some critically needed components. This option would need to be exercised in a relatively short time period in order to prevent equipment from being sold in bulk to other operators."

Brazil and Canada are the only two countries left in the world that fly that particular variant of the CC-115. The most critical shortage of spares involves the engines, but the analysis warns that many of the suppliers simply don't make parts for the vintage aircraft any longer.

Defence Department officials responsible for material were not available to say whether they have actually pursued the Brazilian option for spare parts.

The former Liberal government set aside $3 billion in 2004 to replace the country's fixed-wing search planes, including the Buffalo and the air force's older model C-130 Hercules.
More on link

 

[Zoomie]

This plan has already slipped to the right.  Apparently the Brazilians are not so eager to get rid of their Buffalo's.  They were replacing them with the EADS C-295 and have discovered that they weren't quite up to the job that was being presented to them.  Apparently EADS made these machines look better on paper than they really were - big shocker there!

 

[geo]

Drats!

Just goes to show you how good the venerable Buffalo is - even in it's geriatric years.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Funny how old tech often offers stuff that new tech doesn't. The key is mixing the old and new into a package that offers the best of both worlds.