FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[Nfld Sapper]

Great this item has made it to the CBC National News  :

 

[Good2Golf]

More like two huge hubs rotating on themselves!

Max

You mean like a Chinook?   

One should think of JCA as more of a utility aircraft than a "lifter" per se.  That's what the Army requires.  The Navy has the C-2 Greyhound doing similar work with the fleet.  C-130 is still required intra-theatre, but there are many locations out there that the Army wants to be able to access that a fully loaded Herc just won't go in to. 

Interestingly, we could look down under and wonder just how long the Caribou will keep flying for the RAAF.  The Caribou's of 38 Sqn will continue to work quite happily alongside C-17s that 36 Sqn will be operating from RAAF Base Amberly.  I know of no plans that the RAAF has to replace the Caribou. 

Although introduced in 1964 and employed in the Vietnam War, the Caribou is still recognised as one of the most capable short-haul transport aircraft in the world.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well we used to be one of the world's best aircraft builders and designers........sigh

 

[Kirkhill]

I know of no plans that the RAAF has to replace the Caribou. 

In fact the Aussie's, who have had no trouble finding money, closed the Caribou replacement competition after looking at options, including the C27J and the C295.  They couldn't find anything that filled the bill.

And there is still no market for a designed-to-purpose Twotter/Caribou/Buffalo replacement?  IIRC there were over 1000 aircraft of those types delivered. And in the same class Antonov had a competitor.

 

[Kirkhill]

Further to the discussion on the desired capabilities for a Utility/SAR/Transport aircraft I add these two thoughts:

Disposable, airdroppable UAVs with cameras and realtime datalinks. The launch tubes are currently found on the CP-140 and the CH-124 Sea King.  Presumably they could be installed in any aircraft.

Coyote is a 36-inch long, 12-pound expendable unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) designed to be deployed from sonobuoy launch tubes on Navy aircraft such as the P-3C Orion. The UAV has a digital camera and datalink that can relay real-time video back to the aircraft. It provides surveillance of contacts of interest or visual identification of radar contacts while an aircraft remains at altitude. After launch, Coyote deploys folded wings to maintain stability as it glides down in a spiral designed to keep an object of interest in view.

http://www.chips.navy.mil/archives/06_Oct/web_pages/Program_38.htm

And this thread on the precision airdrop capability of JPADS:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/56041.0.html

Couple that with capabilities like SKAD (Survival Kit Air Droppable)

http://www.airbornesystems-na.com/skad.html

Or possibly even JPADS delivered cocoons for inserting SAR Techs in high wind conditions where they are likely to break bones on impact....

Does any of this factor into the current decision making process on these aircraft?

 

[Rigger]

JPADS delivered cocoons for inserting SAR Techs

Good luck getting a SAR Tech into one of those, they like to have some sort of control over there destines. " This will be an FE's brief for the drop of 2 SAR tech pods to the discussed DZ....." Not a hope in hell. As for the air dropable UAV that has some merit, one of the items that is being discussed for the FWSAR replacement is the ability to drop flares above 10,000 feet while pressurized. This would require some sort of system similar to SONO tubes on the Aurora. The JPADS would defiantly be an asset when it come to dropping bundles. The thing with SAR though is you don't know your DZ until you are on scene, so depending on how much time it takes to configure/program the JPADS, the old school of streamers and the mark one eyeball might be better. I personally believe that technology is going to be the way ahead, but it is just a matter which technology we persue. 

 

[Kirkhill]

Good luck getting a SAR Tech into one of those, they like to have some sort of control over there destines. " This will be an FE's brief for the drop of 2 SAR tech pods to the discussed DZ....." Not a hope in hell.

OK so maybe we have to figure out how to pass the toggles through the shell so they can drive.... ;D

Plan A might be good enough for dropping infanteers .....

 

[aesop081]

Split in order to stay on topic

 

[MarkOttawa]

A certain reporter raises what I think is a fanciful proposition--C-130J for fixed-wing SAR--but does at least discuss the capabilities of aircraft (shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act).

Lockheed Martin interested in Canadian Forces contract
CanWest News Service; Ottawa Citizen
January 29
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=a06bb157-3ef7-45e0-bb30-4b25e85b8901&k=45337

Military officials expect a U.S. aerospace giant to enter the race to provide a new search-and-rescue plane for the Canadian Forces, a move that could derail criticism that the process is rigged in favour of an Italian aircraft.

Defence sources acknowledge the requirements for the search-and-rescue aircraft program won't allow the Spanish-built C-295, or the Dash-8 from Canada's own aircraft manufacturer, Bombardier, to compete in the $1.3-billion competition.

However, the requirements could allow Lockheed Martin to join the race with its C-130J, the same type of aircraft the Canadian Forces is purchasing for its transport needs, sources said.

If that happens the move could provide welcome relief for the Harper government. It has been under fire from opposition politicians and a former Defence department bureaucrat for how it has handled more than $10 billion worth of military programs to purchase new helicopters and transport aircraft.

Critics claimed there has been no real competitive process for the multibillion-dollar deal and the military had pre-selected the winning aircraft.

Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor - who made similar claims when in opposition as Liberals considered such aircraft purchases - now says the process is fair and competitive.

There have also been accusations the requirements for the fourth major project, the purchase of search-and-rescue planes, are being arranged so they will favour the Italian-built C-27J.

The main stumbling block that could prevent Lockheed Martin's C-130J from entering the search-and-rescue competition is its cost.

O'Connor has said the planes cost about $80 million US each, while Lockheed puts the price tag at around $70 million US. Either way, the purchase of 15 C-130Js for search and rescue would almost eat up the project's entire budget, leaving little for the initial purchase of spare parts or provision of maintenance and support usually associated with the first few years of a contract.

At this point Lockheed is not committing to anything. Company spokesman Peter Simmons said the firm has not seen the statement of requirements for the search-and-rescue aircraft.

"We are currently fully engaged on the tactical airlift program which will meet Canada's urgent need to replace its aging C-130 Hercules fleet with new C-130Js," Simmons said.

Lockheed's C-130J has been selected for the $4.9-billion program to provide new tactical transport aircraft for the military.

Even if it decided against offering the C-130J for the search-and-rescue project, Lockheed would still receive work if the C-27J was selected by the Canadian Forces. The C-27J was developed by Alenia of Italy and Lockheed and the U.S. company provides some of the on-board systems for the aircraft.

Retired vice-admiral Ron Buck said claims the search-and-rescue aircraft requirements were designed in 2005 to select the C-27J are not accurate. The requirements were based on the country's needs and maintaining the current level of service, added Buck, the former vice chief of the defence staff.

"I think those aspects are missing from the (public) discussions about this program," he said. "The question is, 'Do you want a lower level of service when it comes to search and rescue?' I wouldn't think so."

OPTIONALEND

A Defence Department source confirmed the requirements being developed would eliminate from the competition the Spanish-built CASA C-295, considered the C-27J's main rival. The requirements would also eliminate the Bombardier Dash-8.

But Defence department sources point out the C-295 is lacking in speed, something that is vital in reaching accident victims quickly. The aircraft's cabin is also not high enough for search-and-rescue technicians to stand up properly, according to sources.

But supporters of the C-295 challenge such claims. They say the airplane's cabin height would indeed allow a search-and-rescue technician to stand upright, adding it is around the same height as the Cormorant search-and-rescue helicopters. They questioned why if the Cormorant height was good enough for search-and-rescue technicians, then why is the requirement being changed now.

They acknowledged the speed differences between the C-295 but noted the aircraft has significantly much more space than the C-27J so it can carry more search-and-rescue gear. At the same time the C-295 is less expensive and easier to maintain than the C-27J.

CASA supporters also counter that while the C-27J is designed to fly fast, it has difficulty, unlike the C-295, in flying low and slow. The ability to fly low and slow is a key requirement for search and rescue.

Alenia said that isn't true and the aircraft performs well at slow speeds and low altitudes. Alenia also said its aircraft is similar in performance to the C-130 Hercules which currently handles search-and-rescue duties.

The C-27J will give Canadians the same level of search-and-rescue service they now have, according to Alenia.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[geo]

well.... if we were to decide to go with the CC130Js, the UK have some slightly used "short" models of the J series they are looking to unload. 

Do the Short & Long CC130Js have +/-90% compatibility between one & the other?

How are the STOL capabilities of the Herc when compared to the Buffalo?

 

[Kirkhill]

If the C130J was bought how much money would be saved on the cost of hardware, software and personnel on an additional training system?

How much money would be saved on the cost of buying a second set of spare parts rather than using a common, larger pool?

How much money would be saved on the cost of buying a second set of maintenance reserve aircraft (necessary to allow for the conduct of operations while some portion of the fleet is in for maintenance)?

Would it be necessary to buy as many aircraft if the FWSAR and the TAL projects both shared a common maintenance reserve?

Would a common aircraft enhance the overall flexibility of the fleet?

Could money saved be applied to Search technologies that also could be applied to the TAL project - thinking here about upgrading the C130s from the common carrier to the special ops carrier version with its improved avionics that would also be beneficial for Combat SAR? 

Could money saved be applied to mounting air-deployable UAVs to assist in search operations in hazardous environments?

Could money saved be applied to purchasing additional Rescue helicopters?

Will there ever be a one-for-one replacement for the Buffalo?

....... As The Stomach Turns..... ;D

 

[GO!!!]

well.... if we were to decide to go with the CC130Js, the UK have some slightly used "short" models of the J series they are looking to unload. 

I don't know - I seem to remember some "slightly used" subs we bought from those guys... :-\

 

[geo]

I don't know - I seem to remember some "slightly used" subs we bought from those guys... :-\

Sure... but the short 130Js apparently still have the US Mfgs warranty & we're looking into buying long 130Js for our tactical lift.... Am certain that Lockheed Martin would be happy to inspect em before we took delivery

 

[kj_gully]

C130 J has been kicked around as a possible candidate for the replacement, I believe it was discarded as less desirable than c27, and the same contractor could not have 2 aircraft in the competition (c27 built in partnership) not exactly sure about that, but something like that. I know that we would lose a lot of potential airstrips in BC ( we will  lose some anyway), if we went to a larger aircraft requiring longer wider runways. Conversely, a smaller ac for the rest of Canada will open up more staging areas for SAR to take place and train.

 

[aesop081]

I would also think that the operating cost of a larger aircraft like the C-130J would be a factor in the decision to go with smaller......

 

[Zoomie]

How are the STOL capabilities of the Herc when compared to the Buffalo?

There is no comparison - apples to oranges.

The CC-130E/H was touted as a replacement for the Buff - our new earthquake proof hanger is built to house two of them.  They were rejected to their lack of maneuverability in the rocks.

The whole point of the FWSAR project is to get rid of 2 engines and facilitate the cost savings.  The CC-130J as a FWSAR platform would be gross overkill.  Only a fraction of the load capabilities would be used.  It is akin to taking an HLVW to get a yard of top soil...

 

[SupersonicMax]

Zoomie, I heard rumors of Dash 8-300 for FWSAR, what would you think about that (flyingwise)?

Max

 

[Zoomie]

I heard rumors of Dash 8-300 for FWSAR,

Most likely started by Bombardier themselves - they are not even in the running...

 

[geo]

C130 J has been kicked around as a possible candidate for the replacement, I believe it was discarded as less desirable than c27, and the same contractor could not have 2 aircraft in the competition (c27 built in partnership) not exactly sure about that, but something like that. I know that we would lose a lot of potential airstrips in BC ( we will  lose some anyway), if we went to a larger aircraft requiring longer wider runways. Conversely, a smaller ac for the rest of Canada will open up more staging areas for SAR to take place and train.

we're already using CC130s for SAR.... thus - NOT a larger aircraft.  Matter of fact, the "short" CC130J is smaller than the CC130s we currently use in the same task.

 

[MarkOttawa]

SupersonicMax: Bombardier looks like getting, as consolation, the Northern Utility Aircraft contract for Twotter replacement:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061124/forces_plan_061124/20061124?hub=TopStories

Utility Transport Aircraft. Bombardier is the favourite to win this contract, valued at about $380-million, with its Dash-8 contract.

And it would actually make sense if we bought more of these at the link from Bombardier for civilian marine aerial surveillance:
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/search?q=bombardier+q

Mark
Ottawa