FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

[geo]

would there be grounds for a new production run of Twins, Buffalos or Short Sherpas?

 

[Brad Sallows]

Well, the Liberals are the party willing to spend a billion dollars to save a human life, so the SAR a/c program pays for itself after 3 lives are saved.

 

[Kirkhill]

;D

 

[MrWhyt]

Doesn't the company that manufactures the herc make a "smaller" herc with parts commonality? I seem to recall reading an article about it... seems like a more or less ideal choice... parts commonality, with a proven air-frame?

Lockheed-Martin was initially involved with the very same C-27J Spartan that we're talking about. They partnered with Alenia to market the C-27J as a baby brother to the C-130J. They have since ended this parternship and L-3 has stepped in.

They make a C130 "short" from what I understand the UK bought em and is now trying to unload em... not saying there is anything wrong with em but, if the UK is mothballing/selling off a fleet of whatever, do we want to pick em up?

The Uk is trying to sell off it's regular length C-130Js (Hercules Mk.5 in UK-speak), they prefer the stretched C-130J-30s (Hercules Mk. 4).

 

[Jantor]

I reply to geo's post #59


As an example,Ericson Aircrane takes old Sikorsky S-64 Sky Cranes and rebuilds them to "zero time" condition, Viking Air of Sidney B.C. holds the type certificates
for the DHC-1 Chipmunk up to the Dash-7. I was lurking on another forum and it seems Viking is floating the idea of rebuilding the Twin Otter for the civil market. I understand there are still about 600 of them flying around. Perhaps rebuilding a half dozen Buffaloes might not be such a stretch.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Simplistic editorials on procurement:

To get the right planes
Globe and Mail
http://www.rbcinvest.theglobeandmail.com//servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/LAC/20070104/ETENDER04/Editorials/commentEditorials/Somnia/

End secrecy and rigging of military contracts
The Gazette
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=1e1e3ab1-7f08-4147-932f-4ecb63249210

Ottawa fails to make its case for single-supplier contracts
Vancouver Sun
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=93c753d0-42cd-4368-9324-4e17016c48c3

A useful post by Babbling Brooks at The Torch:

Everyone's a procurement expert...
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/01/everyones-procurement-expert.html

Mark
Ottawa

 

[observor 69]

Letter in the G&M today from the president of the union at DeHavilland in Toronto. His letter suggests the Dash 8 Q200/300 as a possible  FWSAR aircraft. Aside from his obvious bias how valid is his suggestion?

 

[MarkOttawa]

Baden Guy: From a non-expert (me): No ramp on Q Series.  Plus the letter writer is economical with the truth.  Other countries are using it for maritime surveillance, not SAR as such.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[old man neri]

Letter in the G&M today from the president of the union at DeHavilland in Toronto. His letter suggests the Dash 8 Q200/300 as a possible  FWSAR aircraft. Aside from his obvious bias how valid is his suggestion?

I think the biggest problem is that it does have a ramp at the back.

 

[Babbling Brooks]

It seems to me that the CF/Pols/Canadian Aircraft Industry have missed the boat on this one.

There is a niche that no one is filling.  A niche that was filled internationally by the Canadian aircraft that now need to be replaced and nobody out there has got a replacement.

Well said, Kirkhill.

 

[Loachman]

would there be grounds for a new production run of Twins, Buffalos or Short Sherpas?

Would there be grounds for Ford to re-open production for a 1975 model car and produce a dozen or so?

 

[chrisf]

Lockheed-Martin was initially involved with the very same C-27J Spartan that we're talking about. They partnered with Alenia to market the C-27J as a baby brother to the C-130J. They have since ended this parternship and L-3 has stepped in.
The Uk is trying to sell off it's regular length C-130Js (Hercules Mk.5 in UK-speak), they prefer the stretched C-130J-30s (Hercules Mk. 4).

I admitedly know very little about airplanes (I do however know that parts commonality is a good thing no matter what you're taking about when it comes to military hardware) so it may well have been the Spartan... it was in a copy of "Esprit de corps" that I read recently...basically they described it was a shorter, 2 engined herc... I'll see if I can find the article again, could well have been the same plane...

If it is the same plane I'm thinking about though, does this mean there's no parts commonality now? Or ever was for that matter?

 

[aesop081]

I admitedly know very little about airplanes (I do however know that parts commonality is a good thing no matter what you're taking about when it comes to military hardware) so it may well have been the Spartan... it was in a copy of "Esprit de corps" that I read recently...basically they described it was a shorter, 2 engined herc... I'll see if I can find the article again, could well have been the same plane...

If it is the same plane I'm thinking about though, does this mean there's no parts commonality now? Or ever was for that matter?

Are you sure you want to think of EDC as a reliable source of information ?

 

[MrWhyt]

If it is the same plane I'm thinking about though, does this mean there's no parts commonality now? Or ever was for that matter?

I'm going off my memory of old Aviation Week & Space Technology articles but I believe at the time the commonality was with the engines, the props and the cockpit avionics. I don't know what the situation is now that LM has dropped out.

 

[Jantor]

I was looking at the Rolls Royce website and they claim an 80% parts commonality between the AE 2100D2 (C-27J) and the AE2100D3 (C-130J). The D2 is 6in. shorter and 200lbs. lighter than the D3 yet they both produce the exact same shp. Weird  ???
Also both engines utilise the Dowty R391 six bladed prop.

 

[observor 69]

Baden Guy: From a non-expert (me): No ramp on Q Series.  Plus the letter writer is economical with the truth.  Other countries are using it for maritime surveillance, not SAR as such.

Mark
Ottawa

Hell who needs a ramp:
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/equip/historical/albatrosslst_e.asp  ;D

 

[George Wallace]

Hell who needs a ramp:
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/equip/historical/albatrosslst_e.asp   ;D

Now if you wanted an aircraft that could land in the water like the Albatross, then none in this competition would meet the prerequisites. 

Let's just say, a Ramp is necessary, and leave it at that.

 

[MarkOttawa]

C-27J for FWSAR--a letter to the Globe and Mail from MARCELLO CIANCIARUSO,
vice-president, Canadian programs, Alenia North America
January 9, 2007
http://www.rbcinvest.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/LAC/20070109/LETTERS09-12/Comment/comment/commentLettersHeadline/1/1/15/

Re DND Pushes Quick Plane Deal (Jan. 3): As the manufacturer of the C-27J Spartan, Alenia North America-Canada would like to set the record straight about this aircraft.

The article refers to a statement from a representative of a competing firm that "the Spartan cannot slow down to the appropriate speed of 130 knots." This is incorrect. The stall speed for the C-27J is between 80 to 90 knots, meaning that it can perform searches at any speed from 90 to 325 knots.

The article also says "the Spartan is a relatively new plane that has been sold only to Greece and Italy." The C-27J also has been sold to Bulgaria and Lithuania and was selected just last month by Romania, with negotiations ongoing. The article says "CASA planes are used for search-and-rescue in eight countries." But the C-295 being proposed by EADS-CASA for Canada's fixed-wing search-and-rescue requirements is not used for search and rescue in eight countries.

Our production capability would guarantee rapid delivery to provide early relief for Canada's aging C-130 Hercules fleet. We are certain that we have the only twin-engine aircraft that can satisfy Canada's demanding Canadian search-and-rescue requirements.

Alenia fully supports Canada's insistence on transparency in defence procurements. We would welcome the opportunity to put the C-27J Spartan up against what we know will be extremely demanding performance criteria.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[Rescue Randy]

This is intentional misinformation by Alenia.  In the Canadian Forces, the maneuvering speed that is used for searching and aerial delivery for CC 130s Hercules aircraft is defined as : the 45 degree bank power-off stall speed, plus 20 knots indicated airspeed (for safety consideration). 

Searching is carried out with partial flap selected, in order to reduce stalling speed and provide a slower search speed.  The lower speed is safer in contour search operations and provides far more effective search coverage; the slower the aircraft searches, the more the spotters see. If full (or landing flap) were selected, the aircraft stalling speed would drop further, but this is not done for a number of reasons - the aircraft will have trouble recovering in the event of an engine failure, the aircraft handling is far more labor intensive at full flap, the stresses on the aircraft are considerable (they are not manufactured to fly at full flap continually), and a higher power setting will be required which increases fuel burn, reduces endurance, and increases noise and vibration levels in the cabin.

Stalling speed for search is computed using aircraft weight in search configuration, with SAR gear on board.  The reason it uses 45 degree bank stalling speed is that if you fly straight and level at just above stalling speed, and do a turn, you will stall.  The 45 degree bank stalling speed is 1.2 times the level flight stalling speed.  Similarly, the reason that power-off stalling speed is used is that while "power on" stall speed is lower, if power is reduced or an engine fails, the aircraft will immediately stall - obviously an unsafe situation. 

With five hours fuel and the 6900 pound SAR load that is required for the FWSAR, the Spartan power -off stalling speed at 45 degrees of bank is 120 knots, when 20 knots airspeed is added for safety margin the maneuvering or Search speed is calculated to be 140 knots.  This is ten knots faster than a Hercules with an identical SAR load and equivalent fuel load, and ten knots faster than the maximum search speed established for visual search in the National SAR Manual.  The only way the Spartan can get to the 80-90 knots that Alenia claims is to have an empty aircraft, wings level, and power on - obviously the aircraft would never search in that configuration.  They are knowingly comparing apples to oranges.

Still, one can hope that if Alenia is calling for a full and transparent competition, DND will oblige.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Rescue Randy: Thanks

Mark
Ottawa