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FWSAR (CC130H, Buffalo, C27J, V22): Status & Possibilities

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Seems like everyone might like a few C27s (or C295s).....33 for the US Army, maybe 120 - at which time the Air Force wants to take over the project


Actually, this is more of a bun fight between Army and Air Force over who controls procurement.  That said, if the USAF takes it over, they probably will not be looking for C27J aircraft - they bought ten C27A (same aircraft, different engine) in the early 90s, took delivery in 92, and parked them in 97 because of unserviceabilities, lack of spare parts (it is an Italian airplane) and high operating costs.  The US State Dept took them over later on for Latin American ops, took the ten airframes to rob parts to keep four flying.  Kind of sounds like the Cormorant....
 
As we have heard today the Liberals have pulled back from their fast track commitment of badly needed airframes which included the C27. One of the resons for this about face is vigorous politicking by Bombardier to have their Dash-8 as a made in Canada alternative to purchasing the C27 Spartan, even though DND has repeatedly told Bombardier that the Dash-8 is too small, too slow.

Canadian politics at its best.  :dontpanic:
 
Not sure if this has been posted yet. Please excuse the potential double re-post. It is a great time to start one's career in Blue.

Streamlined military purchase to go ahead <b>NOVEMBER 20, 2005</b>

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20051120.wmilitary1119/BNStory/National/

Ottawa â ” The federal government expects to announce Tuesday it will proceed with the $4.6-billion purchase of 16 transport aircraft for the Canadian military.

Despite industry protests to the contrary, officials insist the accelerated, streamlined process will be based on open bidding. They say at least two companies â ” Airbus and Lockheed Martin â ” are in the running.

The purchase is remarkable because it was part of a larger package that had effectively been shelved one week ago as political dynamite in the days before a federal election. That effort was smothered by competing constituencies in cabinet and corporate Canada.

A relentless series of phone calls from Defence Minister Bill Graham to cabinet colleagues and overseas conversations with Prime Minister Paul Martin travelling in Asia over the past week resurrected a priority portion of the original $12.1-billion purchase.

Defence officials said Mr. Graham realized he would have to scale back his wish list if he was going to win anything for the Forces before an election.

"That snake could not swallow that hog at this point," a senior defence official said.

Mr. Graham would only say he will take "some elements" of the aircraft package that are generally considered "uncontroversial" to cabinet Monday.

"I spoke to the prime minister in Korea and he encouraged me to proceed," Mr. Graham said in an interview.

He said Mr. Martin knows the military has a key role to play in Canada's foreign policy and can't do so without the right equipment.

"Certainly, the airlift capacity is a key part of that," said Mr. Graham. "Take the Hercules fleet â ” everybody in the country knows it's coming to the end of its useful life."

Department officials and senior military officers later confirmed Graham will propose a plan to purchase the tactical transport aircraft, widely expected to be Lockheed Martin's C-17J, though they insisted no decision on what aircraft has been made.

The Airbus A-400 is also considered a competitor, though it has some hurdles to overcome, a senior official said.

"This project is Priority No. 1 â ” for the government, the minister, and the chief," a source said on condition of anonymity.

The performance requirements say first deliveries are to be as soon as possible but no later than three years, with final deliveries no later than five years from awarding of the contract.

Another official said planners hope first deliveries can be made within 18-24 months. The expenditure would include in-service support for 20 years.

A senior military officer said the reversal is almost too good to be true.

Uniformed staff at National Defence Headquarters are having a hard time believing Mr. Graham managed to bring the purchase back from the dead â ” the political equivalent of what one observer called a "back flip with a twist."

"And to see this happen fast is outstanding. It shows a solid commitment that we're not used to."

The aircraft plan had also included heavy-lift helicopters and search-and-rescue planes, but officials say corporate lobbyists convinced some key ministers to resist an initiative they argued would open a political Pandora's box in Quebec and Ontario.

In an effort to reduce a procurement period that has averaged 12 years, defence planners have reduced the transport plane's requirements to a single page of performance needs. Similar documents have numbered 17,000 pages.

The Canadian aerospace industry fears that by producing the performance-based requirements, the government is aiming to sole-source the contracts â ” targeting Italy's C-27J SaR aircraft along with the U.S.-built Hercules tactical transport plane and Chinook heavy-lift helicopter.

"The minute we announced we were going to do this, a whole host of lobbyists descended like locusts on the summer fields and decided to try to eat the fruit before it could grow," Mr. Graham said.

He said the lobbying campaign â ” conducted mainly by ex-generals â ” began before the performance requirements were even published.

"There was a huge campaign based on a lot on rumours and not on fact . . . because everybody felt they wanted to make sure they had a piece of this," said the minister.

"I was distressed because I felt there were some people around town who would rather derail it than see it happen."

Mr. Graham said the NDP announced they would force an election just as he was to present the big package to cabinet.

Cabinet ministers were reminded of what happened when former Tory prime minister Kim Campbell announced a major helicopter purchase just before the 1993 election â ” it became a tempting political morsel for the Liberals.

"If you get procurement policy mixed up in an election process, it can set the process back rather than further it," said Mr. Graham.

Earlier this month, the Conservative defence critic, retired general Gordon O'Connor, said he was concerned the government was rushing the process unnecessarily and made the requirements "so precise only one solution's possible."

But some say the acquisitions are inevitable, have been budgeted for and have such widespread support in Parliament they would be implemented by whichever party wins the election.

Mr. O'Connor â ” the former director of military requirements and an ex-industry lobbyist â ” said later there is nothing stopping the Liberals from going ahead with plans to replace aircraft.

Officials say the new process, with a single page of performance-based requirements rather than detailed specifications for every nut and bolt, will save $250-million over the project's life.

Lobbyists pay lip service this more streamlined approach but "when the rubber hits the road, it's harder to influence because you have a fewer number of things to influence and they are pretty set in concrete," said one official.

"Before, there were 50,000 things to influence and they weren't necessarily set in concrete. And that's how these guys make their dough."

Some of the military's current Hercules transport aircraft â ” mid-range planes used to ferry troops, supplies and equipment in and out of theatre â ” are more than 40 years old.

A senior air force general said Canada is regarded worldwide as the foremost expert in maintaining Hercs with more than 40,000 hours in the air. "We're becoming world leaders in a field of aviation that we don't want to be in."

 
The goverment said the same thing about FWSAR back in 2004.  It was to be a streamlined deal, planes would be on the tarmac within 36 months.  Yeah, right!
 
Tactical Transport Aircraft = Lockheed Martin C17Js...... ???
 
Kirkhill said:
Tactical Transport Aircraft = Lockheed Martin C17Js...... ???

Globe and Mail only confused the masses by that typo - the C-17 is not a contender. 
 
The goverment said the same thing about FWSAR back in 2004.  It was to be a streamlined deal, planes would be on the tarmac within 36 months.  Yeah, right!

I think they said 18 months, and they meant 18 months from contract award, not from the kickoff of the project. Tight deadlines, but not impossible.

Once gov't signs a contract and passes the ball to industry, things tend to move a lot quicker.

In this case, they're talking 36 months from contract award for the manufacturer to deliver the first planes. Entirely within the realm of possibility.
 
Exactly - they have yet to award the contract for FWSAR - the money is already there. 
 
I'm simply posting to move this thread back to page one, maybe restart it with all the chatter on the Strat vs tac airlift thread
 
whiskey601 said:
I've seen C130H with skiis, ....... Can't imagine any of them with floats!!!

The US Navy was working on it back in the late-1990s. They were aiming for sea state three ops, 10,000 lb payload to 2,200 nm, etc, etc....as part of a Spec Ops funding boom.

I think the project died a quiet death.

  (~Bob: SAR Crse 20)   


 
Can you imagine trying to conduct a rescue by relying on your ability to land on the water and pick up survivors?  How often do vessels in distress occur in Sea State 0-3? 

The CASR DND 101 site pokes at the choice of FWSAR in Canada, mentioning that we used to use flying boats before the inception of the Herc/Buff platform.  It only further reinforces my already negative opinion of them - they have no clue what they are writing about.  Last thing any SAR operator would want to do is land in any appreciable Sea State hundreds of miles out to sea.

Apparently Bombardier(and CASR) believes that the ramp is not required for a FWSAR replacement - at least CASA and Alenia both agree that it is.  A recent medevac out of Cranbrook would lend credence to the fact that a ramp is very much needed - provincial Medevac teams couldn't facilitate the Evac due to the lack of said ramp.



 
  I have a question. Were the Antonov An-72 or An-74 ever seriously considered for the FWSAR role here in Canada? The reason I'm asking is that Boeing may be involved in talks with Antonov in the Ukraine about getting together and using that aircraft in the FCA competition in the states.

Buz
 
It would appear that somebody in the US has a beef... or an agenda... or perhaps just doesn't like Italians:-)

http://c-27j.us/cgi-bin/index.cgi
 
Alenia was recently museing over a production line for the C-27J Spartan somewhere in North America, if it won the US Army and Air Force contract for transports...
 
Zoomie said:
Apparently Bombardier(and CASR) believes that the ramp is not required for a FWSAR replacement

Damn....all that time palletizing Major Air Disaster kit for the Herc ramp, only to have to break it down and throw it out a side door, piece by piece, of a ramp-less aircraft. The 4x4 Argo is going to go out ugly  ;)
 
Journeyman said:
Damn....all that time palletizing Major Air Disaster kit for the Herc ramp, only to have to break it down and throw it out a side door, piece by piece, of a ramp-less aircraft. The 4x4 Argo is going to go out ugly  ;)
...all while hunched over like in the Twotter.... we'll go out ugly , nothing like line twists over boreal forest....
 
But that's only us speaking (the operators) - obviously the folks at CASR know better...  ::)

I wonder how those Medevacs would work with the patients that require a ramp?
 
sandhurst91 said:
It would appear that somebody in the US has a beef... or an agenda... or perhaps just doesn't like Italians:-)

Your link does not work.  I would be interested in seeing this article - could you please post it here.

Right now - whether it is Alenia or CASA - it has got to be better than nothing or Bombardier's Q-400 idea!

We've already been told to extend the CC-115 to 2015.
 
Zoomie,
That link must have only went down less than an hour ago.......... ??? 
 
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