Stephen Priestly CASR DND 101 brought to our attention the potential of the EADS PZL Mielec
M28 Skytruck, as the replacement for the aging CC-138 deHavilland (Bombardier) Twin Otter
- this aircraft is now being marketed in the US by Skytruck USA, Naples Florida, and was made
available to the North American market as an industrial benefit from the Polish AF purchase of
Lockheed-Martin F-16's recently. Go on the www.skytruck.us for details about this rugged,
twin engine (P&W Canada turbos) aircraft. We have done a lot of work with PZL companies
(those owned by the Polish government) particularly in the field of agricultural, utility aircraft
which PZL Mielec brought to Canada as the single engine "Dromadar" some thirty plus years ago.
Polish aircraft are noted for their rugged construction and simplicity of design and manufacture
- but having said that, we think that it could only provide a replacement for the "Twotter" -
- probably the best aircraft of it's type ever built. MacLeod
M28 Skytruck, as the replacement for the aging CC-138 deHavilland (Bombardier) Twin Otter
- this aircraft is now being marketed in the US by Skytruck USA, Naples Florida, and was made
available to the North American market as an industrial benefit from the Polish AF purchase of
Lockheed-Martin F-16's recently. Go on the www.skytruck.us for details about this rugged,
twin engine (P&W Canada turbos) aircraft. We have done a lot of work with PZL companies
(those owned by the Polish government) particularly in the field of agricultural, utility aircraft
which PZL Mielec brought to Canada as the single engine "Dromadar" some thirty plus years ago.
Polish aircraft are noted for their rugged construction and simplicity of design and manufacture
- but having said that, we think that it could only provide a replacement for the "Twotter" -
- probably the best aircraft of it's type ever built. MacLeod
Hey everyone, back from a busy summer, and thought I would revive the thread with some interesting gossip. While flying this summer the topic once more arose about the FWSAR project. The SOR ( statement of requirements) is on its third rewrite, as the original did not allow for any competition ( C 27 was only aircraft capable of meeting SOR) second version came after new CDS, included a tactical airlift role, #'s upped from 15 to 19, the extra 4 to replace the twin otters up North. Now the third rewrite is a compromise, to allow some limited competion while still maintaining realistic military requirements ( examples could be things like self start capability, austere field landing etc.) There are currently only two competitors. When I heard that I thought C27 Spartan And casa 295. Then I heard that the competition may not proceed, because both competitors are from the same company! Apparently the latest SOR can only be filled by the C27, or the C130J! Further to that, apparently the CDS has directed a limited purchase of C130J to fill the servibility gap in our C130 fleet. Comox Buffalos briefly held Sar standby for Winnipeg and Trenton, when there were no servicable c130s avail west of Greenwood, while deployed on search ops out of Kamloops BC.
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Wow, thats a fistful of rumours!!
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Sources tell us the Defence Department has drafted a detailed plan to buy up to $10 billion of new aircraft over the coming decade, an expenditure just slightly less than this year's entire <military> budget.
If all goes to plan, the biggest procurement program in Canadian history would include not a single competitive bid.
Instead, the generals would simply pick the planes they fancy, the government would hand out the contracts, and taxpayers would be stuck with the tab.
No muss. No fuss. No bids to rig.
Sources tell us this all-in-one mega-deal, unaffectionately known as the "Four-Pack," includes about 20 Chinook helicopters and 15 Italian-made planes for <search>-and-rescue; a dozen <Hercules> and two giant Antonovs for transport.
Industry insiders say they expect Defence Minister Bill Graham will take the proposal to cabinet as early as next month, and that it already has a tentative nod from the prime minister.
Given this government's apparently incurable attention deficit for fiscal prudence, the generals may well smoke this one past the politicians.
In the realm of bureaucratic efficiency, of course, the plan is pure genius. Paul Martin has long promised to clean up the <military> procurement process after the purchase of new helicopters became a monument to bureaucratic bungling and political bid-rigging.
In that debacle, the feds took over a decade just to design the bidding process for the new choppers.
Get rid of bidding, get rid of the problem.
After the contract was finally awarded to the foreign makers of the <Cormorant>, Jean Chretien's government cancelled the deal in 1993 as an election stunt.
The Liberals then spent the entire next decade in office trying to rig the bidding process to ensure <Cormorant> didn't win again. Without competitive bids, Oncle Jean could have settled the whole deal over golf at a Shawinigan inn.
When the Martin bunch took office promising to do things differently, they weren't kidding. Instead of trying to rig the outcome of the troublesome <helicopter> bidding, they got rid of the bidders.
Last year, the <helicopter> contract was awarded to the American-made Sikorski when all of the other contenders were disqualified after a decade in the running. Lawsuits to follow.
What all this obviously taught the generals and geniuses in Martin's regime is that so much expense and political embarrassment can be avoided by avoiding competitive bidding.
Instead, under the plan now heading for cabinet, some general would have picked up the phone and bought the 38 helicopters.
The proposed Defence Department shopping plan is no doubt a huge hit with Canada's new top general, Rick Hillier, a no-guff man of action who would probably be happiest if he could buy squadrons of planes over the Internet.
Of course, all brilliance has its critics.
Gordon O'Connor, the Conservative defence critic and a former soldier himself, says: "The problem is once you start abandoning the competitive process, you have no guarantee you're getting the best price.
"And how do you know you're getting the most effective, efficient piece of equipment?"
That should help start the rumour pot a boiling. Can you imagine we might actually get a peice of equipment before it becomes out dated. Imagine the possibilities.
MOO
Sorry had to modify your post as it was hard to read with the purple font.
If all goes to plan, the biggest procurement program in Canadian history would include not a single competitive bid.
Instead, the generals would simply pick the planes they fancy, the government would hand out the contracts, and taxpayers would be stuck with the tab.
No muss. No fuss. No bids to rig.
Sources tell us this all-in-one mega-deal, unaffectionately known as the "Four-Pack," includes about 20 Chinook helicopters and 15 Italian-made planes for <search>-and-rescue; a dozen <Hercules> and two giant Antonovs for transport.
Industry insiders say they expect Defence Minister Bill Graham will take the proposal to cabinet as early as next month, and that it already has a tentative nod from the prime minister.
Given this government's apparently incurable attention deficit for fiscal prudence, the generals may well smoke this one past the politicians.
In the realm of bureaucratic efficiency, of course, the plan is pure genius. Paul Martin has long promised to clean up the <military> procurement process after the purchase of new helicopters became a monument to bureaucratic bungling and political bid-rigging.
In that debacle, the feds took over a decade just to design the bidding process for the new choppers.
Get rid of bidding, get rid of the problem.
After the contract was finally awarded to the foreign makers of the <Cormorant>, Jean Chretien's government cancelled the deal in 1993 as an election stunt.
The Liberals then spent the entire next decade in office trying to rig the bidding process to ensure <Cormorant> didn't win again. Without competitive bids, Oncle Jean could have settled the whole deal over golf at a Shawinigan inn.
When the Martin bunch took office promising to do things differently, they weren't kidding. Instead of trying to rig the outcome of the troublesome <helicopter> bidding, they got rid of the bidders.
Last year, the <helicopter> contract was awarded to the American-made Sikorski when all of the other contenders were disqualified after a decade in the running. Lawsuits to follow.
What all this obviously taught the generals and geniuses in Martin's regime is that so much expense and political embarrassment can be avoided by avoiding competitive bidding.
Instead, under the plan now heading for cabinet, some general would have picked up the phone and bought the 38 helicopters.
The proposed Defence Department shopping plan is no doubt a huge hit with Canada's new top general, Rick Hillier, a no-guff man of action who would probably be happiest if he could buy squadrons of planes over the Internet.
Of course, all brilliance has its critics.
Gordon O'Connor, the Conservative defence critic and a former soldier himself, says: "The problem is once you start abandoning the competitive process, you have no guarantee you're getting the best price.
"And how do you know you're getting the most effective, efficient piece of equipment?"
That should help start the rumour pot a boiling. Can you imagine we might actually get a peice of equipment before it becomes out dated. Imagine the possibilities.
MOO
Sorry had to modify your post as it was hard to read with the purple font.
- Reaction score
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Where did that op-ed from O'Connor come from?
Matthew. ???
[Moderator Answer: Apparently it was a Sun column by Greg Weston ... ?]
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34817.0.html
Matthew. ???
[Moderator Answer: Apparently it was a Sun column by Greg Weston ... ?]
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34817.0.html
It sounds to me like things are very much uncertain at this time. The last proposal announced was for $6 billion, and that included about 20 ch-47's, 15-20 c-130J's and 15 c-27J's. Now they're saying $10 billion, but with 3 to 8 fewer c-130J's and 2 an-124-100M's added? I'm not sure why the two an-124's are supposed to cost 4 billion or more, but maybe the source missquoted the numbers. Will the $10 billion include the Twin Otter replacement too? I expect we'll be seeing varying numbers like this until the deal is finally signed. My only real question is how many birds do we need to meet operational requirements? Are 12 Hercs enough? Are two Anotovs enough?
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Perhaps the 10B includes the cost of the airframes and a service contract, similar to the MHP contracts???
MIke.
MIke.
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Having just finished SAREX '05 in Summerside, I can say that the FWSAR program is in great hands...a Colonel who will make an excellent politician when the time comes. :crybaby: Oh, and he isn't aircrew.
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onewingwonder said:
Based on what I've seen of Hillier, I'm surprised he tolerates that....
Matthew. ???
jmacleod said:
There is a good article and flight test on the M28 in Business & Commercial Aviation, September 2005. It turns out the aircraft is very noisy inside, especially in the cockpit which is abeam the props. It is slow but can carry a good load and operate in STOL mode. It is currently the only new build twin STOL aircraft. It is being certified on skiis and there is a proposal to put it on floats. On the downside, it is very expensive, US$5 million a copy. There are a couple of shortfalls, like the entry door in front of the props which are going to be corrected before North American marketing proceeds. The flight manual is also a literal translation from Polish and leaves a lot to be desired.
I don't think this is the option to replace the Twotters.
What has not been made clear is what the requirements are for a Twotter replacement. For example, is the ability to operate on floats important? Should the aircraft be able to operate on skiis? Does it need a fast cruise? What sort of range? What sort of payload? Given the Twin Otter replacement was supposed to be "fast tracked" even faster than the fast tracking of a new FWSAR type, I do not have any optimism that any requirements have been developed, other than some people wishing for the C27J. There might be good reasons to go with the C27J, such as standardizing on type, with concommitant economies of scale in training, maintenance, etc., but first we need to decide what we want the FWNOR to do.
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I've seen C130H with skiis, why not the C27? IIRC the C-123B had skiis. Can't imagine any of them with floats!!!
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The CF is out of the float aircraft business - Twotter pilots no longer maintain those quals, another budget cut measure.
Big problem with the Twotter is it is SLOW - Polish EADS STOL is not what we need nor want - Priestly and Demillle at CASR have their own ideas, none of which are based on fact or logic (personal note not a reflection of this website nor the DND).
Big problem with the Twotter is it is SLOW - Polish EADS STOL is not what we need nor want - Priestly and Demillle at CASR have their own ideas, none of which are based on fact or logic (personal note not a reflection of this website nor the DND).
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Hello everyone.
I didn't know that they stopped using floats on the Twotter. :-\ Since that's that maybe this aircraft would be something to consider.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/c212/
The Aussies are replacing their Twotters with the Aviocar because they say its got twice the range with twice the payload and can
be fitted with either oversized tires or skis. Australia wants to use them in Antarctica.
An older model, the 300P utility version, used P&WC PT6A-65 turboprops.
Buz
I didn't know that they stopped using floats on the Twotter. :-\ Since that's that maybe this aircraft would be something to consider.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/c212/
The Aussies are replacing their Twotters with the Aviocar because they say its got twice the range with twice the payload and can
be fitted with either oversized tires or skis. Australia wants to use them in Antarctica.
An older model, the 300P utility version, used P&WC PT6A-65 turboprops.
Buz
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http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34
L-3 has set up Spar in Edmonton as their lead element in their Air Mobility Systems operation...
Do I hear echoes of the Bristol contract......?
In any event, it could be a positive development towards a C-130J/C27J buy. Anybody have any idea how they might handle the rotary end of the Air mobility issue?
Also, by handling it this way could the government find two or three consortia that could all supply the same aircraft but with different supply and service terms? Many car dealers can all sell you exactly the same Chevy.
Maybe this adds something to the rotary bit of the puzzle. L-3 and Agusta-Westland (EH-101) are competing on US Army LUH programme with the AB 139 (Augusta Bell as in Bell Aerospace as Mirabel with engines by Pratt and Whitney Canada?)
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34
L-3 has set up Spar in Edmonton as their lead element in their Air Mobility Systems operation...
Do I hear echoes of the Bristol contract......?
In any event, it could be a positive development towards a C-130J/C27J buy. Anybody have any idea how they might handle the rotary end of the Air mobility issue?
Also, by handling it this way could the government find two or three consortia that could all supply the same aircraft but with different supply and service terms? Many car dealers can all sell you exactly the same Chevy.
Maybe this adds something to the rotary bit of the puzzle. L-3 and Agusta-Westland (EH-101) are competing on US Army LUH programme with the AB 139 (Augusta Bell as in Bell Aerospace as Mirabel with engines by Pratt and Whitney Canada?)
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34
- Reaction score
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Seems like everyone might like a few C27s (or C295s).....33 for the US Army, maybe 120 - at which time the Air Force wants to take over the project - USANG is also calling for 120 for domestic disaster relief.
Interesting comment that the C130 is too BIG.
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2005/Nov/UF-Military.htm
Interesting comment that the C130 is too BIG.
http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/issues/2005/Nov/UF-Military.htm
