Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[Furniture]

I'm not sure I understand. Ignoring the present topic, the Emergencies Act covers a wide range of situations in addition to Public Order, all the way up to War. In times of legitimate threats to the nation and its people, such as the west coast sliding into Pacific or Mongol hordes riding over the pole, you wish to create a situation that forces an election? Why would a government ever invoke it then?

It seems the current government has bespoiled what is otherwise a legitimate piece of legislation.

My point is that even in times of war, when the emergency is over and the commission/hearing/report that investigates the use of the aEA is finished and the report released to the public, there should be an election. That way the people of Canada get a say in whether or not they felt like the use of the EA was justified. In this instance the EA was invoked shortly after an election, meaning the people of Canada have to wait nearly four years to have a say in having their rights suspended.

The idea is to make the use of the EA a poison pill, so that governments only use it when it is absolutely necessary.

 

[RangerRay]

What reports are you reading and what world are you living in where the Ottawa Police Service did their job? Had they been doing their job they would not have seen the downtown core occupied for three weeks until ten or more other police services bailed them out. Now, I place this failure at the feet of, primarily, the chief of OPS, and to a much lesser extend the rest of their senior command- the troops on the ground were dealing with weak, conflicting, and often changing direction and did the best they could. But OPS as an institution in no way served their city properly or effectively. Doing so would have seen it cleared out the first weekend as they begun to dig in and make their intent clear. The abundant evidence from the rest of the late-game unified command (OPP, RCMP) makes it very clear how dysfunctional the OPS leadership, particularly Sloly, were. Also, to be clear, politicians do not direct police operations, at municipal, provincial, or federal level.

It's utterly unreasonable to expect politicians - of any party - to meet with a group who are using criminal means to try to enforce their will. And make no mistake, the protest crossed into criminality almost immediately, and there have been a slew of criminal convictions for the convoy participants, even though it rarely makes the news. You don't get to jam up a major part of a downtown urban center and then try to coerce politicians to come out to meet you and to change government policy (or even government formulation) on your terms. We have mechanisms through peaceful and lawful public advocacy, Parliament, the courts, and ultimately at the ballot box to achieve these ends.

"Friendliest" protest is also farcical. They were not friendly. They were jubilant when they were getting their way. As soon as any enforcement actions were taken or hinted at, that changed. There were police surrounded and swarmed well before the final clearance operation. But when push literally came to shove, they were very, very far from friendly. That's why the operation of 18-20 February looked the way it did.

We each have our respective views on this, but yours appear to be horribly uninformed, and you appear far more interested in what you want to be true than what the facts on the ground actually were. You're entitled to your own opinion, of course- you are not entitled to your own set of facts.

This point seems to get lost for some reason. If the OPS was doing their job, the convoy would not have had a chance to dig in.

And the protesters were happy when they were left alone, but would quickly swarm any PO/by-law officer that did try to do their job.

 

[Remius]

This point seems to get lost for some reason. If the OPS was doing their job, the convoy would not have had a chance to dig in.

And the protesters were happy when they were left alone, but would quickly swarm any PO/by-law officer that did try to do their job.

I know someone where that happened at the Sheppard’s of Good Hope incident.

 

[Remius]

Former justice minister David Lametti resigns as Montreal MP

Being ejected from Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's cabinet took a tough personal toll, former justice minister David Lametti shared Thursday as he announced his exit from public office.

www.ctvnews.ca

Related?

 

[Lumber]

The idea is to make the use of the EA a poison pill, so that governments only use it when it is absolutely necessary.

And that's the problem I see with this proposal: governments will never swallow a poison pill, even when it's absolutely needed. If they know using the EA will automatically trigger an election, they'll say "fuck it; lets find another way", which is bad if we really need the EA.

Canadians will get their say, it just might take 4 years.

 

[dimsum]

From what was reported they did their job.
The politicians at various levels got involved and forced processes that were not agreed upon by the main group and the Police.
Things got a bit confused and forced. Ottawa was dealing with one of the largest friendliest protest they have ever expieranced.
Politicians refused to discuss the concerns or even show their faces. While taking a knee with others. Trying to incite this one into extreme violence, which it did not.
Mean while we had a viable attack out west on critical infrastructure during this time and the PM ignored ot fully. Until he was forced to make a Comment. Forced is the key word.

Let's face it, federal government did not expects thousands to show up in support. They were so full of themselves, then panicked when the fringe minority, with unacceptable views raised more money in two weeks then their party can in 4 years legally. Then used foreign interference as a base to discredit the entire situation.
Turns out the goverment broke multiple laws and ethics in how they forced the situation. Now we will pay the consequences both here and abroad for their behavior.

I lived a block from the Convoy, so I like to think I have a bit of personal experience with those 3 weeks.

To quote Luke Skywalker: “Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong.”

@brihard pretty much said what I wanted to say in nicer words, but what was happening in downtown Ottawa was worse than what was reported in most media. No one reported on the rampant drinking during the day, leading to cars speeding (as much as they could in the Ottawa winter) down the wrong way at night on one-way streets, ignoring stop signs and street lights.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Hooliganism merits a police response. Terrorism on the scale of the FLQ crisis merits an EA response. A lot of distance from the former to the latter.

 

[Dana381]

Just imagine if the City of Ottawa/Ottawa Police Service had actually done their jobs in the first place, all of this angst over the role of the federal government would have been avoided and we could go on to dislike them for other reasons.

Just imagine if PJT had acted like a statesman and had met with the protestors and listened to their case. He had lots of time he could have met them at any point along the route. If the protestors felt heard and respected they likely would have dispersed.

Instead he acted like a scared child and called them names and hid in his cottage.

 

[brihard]

Just imagine if PJT had acted like a statesman and had met with the protestors and listened to their case. He had lots of time he could have met them at any point along the route. If the protestors felt heard and respected they likely would have dispersed.

Instead he acted like a scared child and called them names and hid in his cottage.

So, you endorse that if a group of people has a political grievance, take over a major downtown core for weeks, and the only legitimate answer is for the PM to come out and meet and dialogue? And they can expect to feel 'heard', however they define that means?

I assume you would condone this same approach if Black Lives Matter were to take over Bay Street in Toronto during the week, forcing the premier to meet them about police reform?

I assume you would endorse this method if the Palestinian diaspora wants to take over downtown Ottawa again for a week or two to force dialogue with the minister of foreign affairs to force a change of government policy in favour of Israeli ceasefire?

I assume you would be fine with Alberta's collective environmentalists jamming up downtown Calgary to force Danielle Smith to meet them and feel heard on the subject of building more renewable power generation?

 

[YZT580]

So, you endorse that if a group of people has a political grievance, take over a major downtown core for weeks, and the only legitimate answer is for the PM to come out and meet and dialogue? And they can expect to feel 'heard', however they define that means?

I assume you would condone this same approach if Black Lives Matter were to take over Bay Street in Toronto during the week, forcing the premier to meet them about police reform?

I assume you would endorse this method if the Palestinian diaspora wants to take over downtown Ottawa again for a week or two to force dialogue with the minister of foreign affairs to force a change of government policy in favour of Israeli ceasefire?

I assume you would be fine with Alberta's collective environmentalists jamming up downtown Calgary to force Danielle Smith to meet them and feel heard on the subject of building more renewable power generation?

your point is well taken but they asked to speak to the PM when they were still days out from arriving in downtown Ottawa and obeying the traffic laws on route. He knew he had a problem but he refused to deal with it in a rational way. Look back on the comments re: the protests in Toronto and you will note that diplomacy and tact are emphasized as tools for the police. Trudeau's words with regards the incoming truckers were neither tactful nor were they diplomatic. In fact they were designed to denigrate every trucker. I know of several drivers who never intended to truck to OW at all but were in their cabs (pickups mostly) very shortly after

 

[FSTO]

^^
When would the “on to Ottawa trek” get on the RCMP or CSIS radar? Regina? Winnipeg? Sault St Marie?

Was there any liaison between the Mounties/OPP/OPS as to what was coming?

Was the Public Safety Minister being briefed as to the intentions of the group (which I think was well publicized)?

Is there anyone concerned that a goofy bunch of malcontents damn brought this country to its knees by parking a bunch of vehicles on Parliament Hill?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don't see the Ottawa protest bringing Canada to it's knees any more than the public service strike did.

It seems like all they accomplished was to harass and assault people in the down town core.

 

[FSTO]

^^
I guess I worded that poorly. Damn near brought a sitting government and especially the cabinet to its knees.

 

[Halifax Tar]

So, you endorse that if a group of people has a political grievance, take over a major downtown core for weeks, and the only legitimate answer is for the PM to come out and meet and dialogue? And they can expect to feel 'heard', however they define that means?

Isn't that part of negotiating ? I mean our PM has given audience to cause and person all over the spectrum of political and social ideologies that suit his tastes. Why wouldn't he talk to some middle class tax paying Canadians ? If he could have defused the situation, why not ? He works for us, lets not forget that.

I assume you would condone this same approach if Black Lives Matter were to take over Bay Street in Toronto during the week, forcing the premier to meet them about police reform?

Are you being serious here ? Gov officials all levels met with and supported these protesters.

I assume you would endorse this method if the Palestinian diaspora wants to take over downtown Ottawa again for a week or two to force dialogue with the minister of foreign affairs to force a change of government policy in favour of Israeli ceasefire?

Pretty much the same as the above, these folks have taken over parts of cities, for not as long as I will give you, and they are handled with velvet gloves. These are people openly calling for the extinguishing of a whole race/religion of people and our powers that be do nothing. Your correlation from them to the Truckers is weak mon ami. Not the same ball park at all.

I assume you would be fine with Alberta's collective environmentalists jamming up downtown Calgary to force Danielle Smith to meet them and feel heard on the subject of building more renewable power generation?

Absolutely I am ok with that. And as we have seen recently Danielle Smith is willing to engage with all kinds, Tucker Carlson as an example.

 

[Dana381]

So, you endorse that if a group of people has a political grievance, take over a major downtown core for weeks, and the only legitimate answer is for the PM to come out and meet and dialogue? And they can expect to feel 'heard', however they define that means?

I assume you would condone this same approach if Black Lives Matter were to take over Bay Street in Toronto during the week, forcing the premier to meet them about police reform?

I assume you would endorse this method if the Palestinian diaspora wants to take over downtown Ottawa again for a week or two to force dialogue with the minister of foreign affairs to force a change of government policy in favour of Israeli ceasefire?

I assume you would be fine with Alberta's collective environmentalists jamming up downtown Calgary to force Danielle Smith to meet them and feel heard on the subject of building more renewable power generation?

Did you even read my post?

He had lots of time he could have met them at any point along the route. If the protestors felt heard and respected they likely would have dispersed.

It's common knowledge that when angy people feel heard and respected they calm down. It works even when the answer is no. Feeling heard is more important than the outcome desired.

The convoy didn't want to be in Ottawa. They wanted to go back to work and feed their families. They felt going to Ottawa would help them get back to work.

 

[Remius]

Just imagine if PJT had acted like a statesman and had met with the protestors and listened to their case. He had lots of time he could have met them at any point along the route. If the protestors felt heard and respected they likely would have dispersed.

Instead he acted like a scared child and called them names and hid in his cottage.

Respect works both ways though. When a protest has an eff Trudeau sign for every three people and gets taken over by extremists you don’t meet that.

The government met with the actual people that represent the truckers on several occasions. A rogue group having a fit decided to do their own thing and got taken over by bad actors.

 

[Remius]

Isn't that part of negotiating ? I mean our PM has given audience to cause and person all over the spectrum of political and social ideologies that suit his tastes. Why wouldn't he talk to some middle class tax paying Canadians ? If he could have defused the situation, why not ? He works for us, lets not forget that.

Again, meet with who?

Are you being serious here ? Gov officials all levels met with and supported these protesters.

They met with the lawful groups. The unlawful groups were arrested and removed in less that 24 hours.

Pretty much the same as the above, these folks have taken over parts of cities, for not as long as I will give you, and they are handled with velvet gloves. These are people openly calling for the extinguishing of a whole race/religion of people and our powers that be do nothing. Your correlation from them to the Truckers is weak mon ami. Not the same ball park at all.

His Correlation is not Weak at all. Sorry but your argument is what I alluded to before. It’s hypocrisy to support the right to protest for one and not the other. The difference is political opinion. As for velvet gloves, the convoy protests saw no real enforcement action for 3 weeks.

And lol. « these people ». Was something convoy supported hated hearing when they felt they were being painted with a wide brush. I guess it’s only a few bad apples when it’s something one feels more aligned to.

Absolutely I am ok with that. And as we have seen recently Danielle Smith is willing to engage with all kinds, Tucker Carlson as an example.

Um, Tucker Carlson wasn’t protesting with demands and here to negociate for anything. Danielle Smith wasn’t exactly meeting with some unfriendly type.

 

[brihard]

Isn't that part of negotiating ? I mean our PM has given audience to cause and person all over the spectrum of political and social ideologies that suit his tastes. Why wouldn't he talk to some middle class tax paying Canadians ? If he could have defused the situation, why not ? He works for us, lets not forget that.



Are you being serious here ? Gov officials all levels met with and supported these protesters.



Pretty much the same as the above, these folks have taken over parts of cities, for not as long as I will give you, and they are handled with velvet gloves. These are people openly calling for the extinguishing of a whole race/religion of people and our powers that be do nothing. Your correlation from them to the Truckers is weak mon ami. Not the same ball park at all.



Absolutely I am ok with that. And as we have seen recently Danielle Smith is willing to engage with all kinds, Tucker Carlson as an example.

Absolutely I’m serious. I’m not just talking about government officials meeting for a photo op; my comment stands in its entirety. I’m taking about attempts to coerce policy change by these means.

Interesting that you’d be OK with a group taking over and jamming up another city like Calgary the same way they did Ottawa. Personally I’m not ok with any group doing that for any purpose. I’m not talking an afternoon protest, I’m talking about what actually happened in Ottawa.

Did you even read my post?


It's common knowledge that when angy people feel heard and respected they calm down. It works even when the answer is no. Feeling heard is more important than the outcome desired.

The convoy didn't want to be in Ottawa. They wanted to go back to work and feed their families. They felt going to Ottawa would help them get back to work.

I read your post. It was and remains a bad take. Who, precisely, was the PM supposed to meet with? This wasn’t a monolithic group; I’ve spoken to that fact before. There were a number of disparate and loosely aligned groups converging on Ottawa. A bunch were, right from the outset, the “fuck Trudeau” crowd, some of them already known fans of noose imagery. You don’t get to come from that as your start point and coerce a meeting. Others (with of course heavy overlap) were previously known to police and security agencies from prior antigovernment events like the yellow vest convoy and various other protest movements. It’s not like there was zero knowledge of who these people were. What there wasn’t was any clearly accepted and defined core leadership at that time who actually could speak for the larger group. Meeting with any of them would have been essentially picking and legitimating a few from among them.

And, quite frankly, I doubt the PM or other senior members of government would have been particularly safe in their company.

You’re essentially endorsing public policy reform by tantrum and coercion. Maybe you’re cool with that, but that doesn’t get you to the grown ups table. Nothing I saw on the ground suggests that the core group of a couple thousand would be placated simply by “being heard”. They had demands that they tried to force through outside the lawful system, and they occupied the downtown core and denied its peaceable use to tens of thousands of others for three weeks over it. They were certainly seen and heard by everyone, but they wouldn’t take ‘no’ for an answer, and so it went the way it went.

They made their intent clear on the way here. There was never any cohesive leadership acting in reasonably and in good faith for government to meet with. Just a bunch of disparate but overlapping groups counselling criminality. Some figures did emerge as more centralized, if loose, leadership once they got here and dug in, but there was nothing those people were doing that would have justified legitimating their tactics by bowing to demands to parley.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Again, meet with who?

The Gov found no issue laying charges. Start with those people, they must be some form of leadership.

They met with the lawful groups. The unlawful groups were arrested and removed in less that 24 hours.

So the PM should have met with the convoy before it became unlawful ?

His Correlation is not Weak at all. Sorry but your argument is what I alluded to before. It’s hypocrisy to support the right to protest for one and not the other. The difference is political opinion. As for velvet gloves, the convoy protests saw no real enforcement action for 3 weeks.

I support anyone's right to protest. What I don't support is a protest that calls for genocide.

And lol. « these people ». Was something convoy supported hated hearing when they felt they were being painted with a wide brush. I guess it’s only a few bad apples when it’s something one feels more aligned to.

Um, Tucker Carlson wasn’t protesting with demands and here to negociate for anything. Danielle Smith wasn’t exactly meeting with some unfriendly type.

I'm not sure what your these people thing is about.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Absolutely I’m serious. I’m not just talking about government officials meeting for a photo op; my comment stands in its entirety. I’m taking about attempts to coerce policy change by these means.

Interesting that you’d be OK with a group taking over and jamming up another city like Calgary the same way they did Ottawa. Personally I’m not ok with any group doing that for any purpose. I’m not talking an afternoon protest, I’m talking about what actually happened in Ottawa.

Peaceful protest is a facet of our society and I am ok with it.

All protest is an attempt to push policy. Its a display that a group of people feel aggrieved and want that fixed.

Its up to Police and Gov to maintain good order and discipline. And if you can solve something by talking without the drama or violence that should be way to go. The Police shouldn't be used to push people out until its a last resort.