Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[Halifax Tar]

I don't agree on waiting for appeals, though. That would risk excessively delaying the process. I think the Federal Court should be seen as trustworthy enough to give the GG legitimacy to make his or her decision.

I get it. This a case where I would favor tedious and strict adherence to proper procedure over expeditious actions.

 

[TacticalTea]

I get it. This a case where I would favor tedious and strict adherence to proper procedure over expeditious actions.

Thing is, at the end of the day, it's still the electorate making the final democratic decision. It's not like the sitting PM would be banned from office or anything.

 

[YZT580]

The LPC has 157 of 338 seats; the CPC, NDP and others could work together to pass a piece of legislation with the remaining 181 votes, as there are a number of opportunities to update legislation put forward by private member bills. This isn't a confidence motion issue so wouldn't bring the minority government down.

would you not require the approval of the Senate as well?

 

[Navy_Pete]

I don't agree on waiting for appeals, though. That would risk excessively delaying the process. I think the Federal Court should be seen as trustworthy enough to give the GG legitimacy to make his or her decision.

You don't need the GG though; the NDP could collapse the government today with a non-confidence vote with the CPC and BQ. The tools are all there it's just the political will isn't.

They are already a collection of assclowns, but at least they are elected so you can hold them accountable as voters. I don't want some unelected potential assclown that is answerable to no one having a final say over the theoretically accountable elected assclowns (especially when unelected potential assclown is appointed by the current leader of the governing assclowns and could easily be abused to ruin the day of the next batch of elected governing assclowns as a political revenge).

No system that requires some kind of personal decision is idiot proof, but at least if you minimize the layers of potential idiots it's more likely to be semi-workable. The US system is crippled by competing idiots that have broken the checks and balances and turned them into political tools they abuse for brownie points, not to actually govern.

I actually like our current GG, but the position really needs to remain apolitical and symbolic. Our MPs just need to put on their big kid pants, work together and actually govern themselves instead of needing adult supervision.

 

[Furniture]

Are you saying that in all cases parliament should be dissolved, even if there an actual justifiable emergency, and the commission and and subsequent courts determine the same?

Yes, in all cases that the EA is used. If it's justified in the eyes of the electorate, I imagine the sitting government would get a majority. If not, the Canadian people get to choose a new government.

Using the EA should well and truly be a last resort. The sitting government should know that using it will force them to clearly justify why they chose to suspend the rights of Canadians.

 

[Navy_Pete]

would you not require the approval of the Senate as well?

The senate can make recommendations and send it back to the house, but ultimately on MPs to take it or not. They are there to provide second sober reflection, not make law. Lot of processes and a lot of bills have died in the process without ever getting put in place because of how long it takes, and every election being a big reset button which is kind of dumb.

 

[YZT580]

Thing is, at the end of the day, it's still the electorate making the final democratic decision. It's not like the sitting PM would be banned from office or anything.

as it should be. The people decide whether the actions taken by government are correct. On the issue of the GG though, having someone whose only authority is to say enough is enough might have prevented Hamas as a for instance taking and holding power in the Gaza. There are distinct advantages in having a safety valve that the elected government of the day cannot coopt

 

[Brad Sallows]

A government that can easily "get things done" - in this case, a lower house with no meaningful executive check and a self-restrained weak upper house and a concentration of the lower house's power in the government leader's office - is also a government that can easily do things we'd rather they not.

The US model - a separately elected executive and a separately elected Senate approximately co-equal with the House - is what we should have, but that would never suit the elites - it would mean a real erosion of their capability to push things through. And the rest of us would have to accept the fact that such a structure is designed to force compromise to the middle.

 

[childs56]

Just imagine if the City of Ottawa/Ottawa Police Service had actually done their jobs in the first place, all of this angst over the role of the federal government would have been avoided and we could go on to dislike them for other reasons.

From what was reported they did their job.
The politicians at various levels got involved and forced processes that were not agreed upon by the main group and the Police.
Things got a bit confused and forced. Ottawa was dealing with one of the largest friendliest protest they have ever expieranced.
Politicians refused to discuss the concerns or even show their faces. While taking a knee with others. Trying to incite this one into extreme violence, which it did not.
Mean while we had a viable attack out west on critical infrastructure during this time and the PM ignored ot fully. Until he was forced to make a Comment. Forced is the key word.

Let's face it, federal government did not expects thousands to show up in support. They were so full of themselves, then panicked when the fringe minority, with unacceptable views raised more money in two weeks then their party can in 4 years legally. Then used foreign interference as a base to discredit the entire situation.
Turns out the goverment broke multiple laws and ethics in how they forced the situation. Now we will pay the consequences both here and abroad for their behavior.

 

[YZT580]

A government that can easily "get things done" - in this case, a lower house with no meaningful executive check and a self-restrained weak upper house and a concentration of the lower house's power in the government leader's office - is also a government that can easily do things we'd rather they not.

The US model - a separately elected executive and a separately elected Senate approximately co-equal with the House - is what we should have, but that would never suit the elites - it would mean a real erosion of their capability to push things through. And the rest of us would have to accept the fact that such a structure is designed to force compromise to the middle.

do you really think that their isn't a set of elites south of the border?

 

[Good2Golf]

Using the EA should well and truly be a last resort. The sitting government should know that using it will force them to clearly justify why they chose to suspend the rights of Canadians.

That we didn’t even see the EA for Oka…and then delegated much to the Banks with a nudge and a wink. That’s not in the public interest IMO.

 

[Furniture]

do you really think that their isn't a set of elites south of the border?

A set of elites that intentionally stalls things so changes can't happen...

All systems will be gamed by those with power, to retain their power.

 

[Spencer100]

A set of elites that intentionally stalls things so changes can't happen...

All systems will be gamed by those with power, to retain their power.

Just ask Kari Lake (please don't get into her I'm just using the example that came out yesterday) I just wish they would unveil the "people out east"

Almost every western nation would be better off if the local riding/electoral/district would just put up the candidates the local party/associations picked. It's the party leader or backroom signoffs that start the corruption. Sure you would have localized problems and corruption but that can't be worse than we have now. And maybe an honest politician will slip in every once and blue noon. In Canada's case imagine a parliament that has MP's with a little more freedom? The party noose not so tight around their necks?

 

[QV]

Using the EA should well and truly be a last resort. The sitting government should know that using it will force them to clearly justify why they chose to suspend the rights of Canadians.

They do have to justify it after with a hearing. The problem in this case was Trudeau appointed a family friend to conduct the hearing. . Look how that outcome is the opposite of the Federal Court... shocking!

Lots of people on here are ok with that. We deserve what we get.

 

[lenaitch]

From what was reported they did their job.
The politicians at various levels got involved and forced processes that were not agreed upon by the main group and the Police.
Things got a bit confused and forced. Ottawa was dealing with one of the largest friendliest protest they have ever expieranced.
Politicians refused to discuss the concerns or even show their faces. While taking a knee with others. Trying to incite this one into extreme violence, which it did not.
Mean while we had a viable attack out west on critical infrastructure during this time and the PM ignored ot fully. Until he was forced to make a Comment. Forced is the key word.

Let's face it, federal government did not expects thousands to show up in support. They were so full of themselves, then panicked when the fringe minority, with unacceptable views raised more money in two weeks then their party can in 4 years legally. Then used foreign interference as a base to discredit the entire situation.
Turns out the goverment broke multiple laws and ethics in how they forced the situation. Now we will pay the consequences both here and abroad for their behavior.

I suppose if you take the position that the Ottawa event was completely legitimate, no laws were broken, everybody had fun, no one was disrupted and local businesses made out like bandits, the OPS really had nothing to do, which they did quite famously. If nothing was amiss, then no processes were needed.

 

[Brad Sallows]

do you really think that their isn't a set of elites south of the border?

Of course there is. And their constitution frustrates their desire to effect change rapidly.

 

[lenaitch]

Yes, in all cases that the EA is used. If it's justified in the eyes of the electorate, I imagine the sitting government would get a majority. If not, the Canadian people get to choose a new government.

Using the EA should well and truly be a last resort. The sitting government should know that using it will force them to clearly justify why they chose to suspend the rights of Canadians.

I'm not sure I understand. Ignoring the present topic, the Emergencies Act covers a wide range of situations in addition to Public Order, all the way up to War. In times of legitimate threats to the nation and its people, such as the west coast sliding into Pacific or Mongol hordes riding over the pole, you wish to create a situation that forces an election? Why would a government ever invoke it then?

It seems the current government has bespoiled what is otherwise a legitimate piece of legislation.

 

[QV]

Someone should go back through this thread and check who said the EA was justified and who said it wasn't, before/during/after the Rouleau hearing... I mean, you could measure critical thinking skills with just that analysis alone.

 

[brihard]

From what was reported they did their job.
The politicians at various levels got involved and forced processes that were not agreed upon by the main group and the Police.
Things got a bit confused and forced. Ottawa was dealing with one of the largest friendliest protest they have ever expieranced.
Politicians refused to discuss the concerns or even show their faces. While taking a knee with others. Trying to incite this one into extreme violence, which it did not.
Mean while we had a viable attack out west on critical infrastructure during this time and the PM ignored ot fully. Until he was forced to make a Comment. Forced is the key word.

What reports are you reading and what world are you living in where the Ottawa Police Service did their job? Had they been doing their job they would not have seen the downtown core occupied for three weeks until ten or more other police services bailed them out. Now, I place this failure at the feet of, primarily, the chief of OPS, and to a much lesser extend the rest of their senior command- the troops on the ground were dealing with weak, conflicting, and often changing direction and did the best they could. But OPS as an institution in no way served their city properly or effectively. Doing so would have seen it cleared out the first weekend as they begun to dig in and make their intent clear. The abundant evidence from the rest of the late-game unified command (OPP, RCMP) makes it very clear how dysfunctional the OPS leadership, particularly Sloly, were. Also, to be clear, politicians do not direct police operations, at municipal, provincial, or federal level.

It's utterly unreasonable to expect politicians - of any party - to meet with a group who are using criminal means to try to enforce their will. And make no mistake, the protest crossed into criminality almost immediately, and there have been a slew of criminal convictions for the convoy participants, even though it rarely makes the news. You don't get to jam up a major part of a downtown urban center and then try to coerce politicians to come out to meet you and to change government policy (or even government formulation) on your terms. We have mechanisms through peaceful and lawful public advocacy, Parliament, the courts, and ultimately at the ballot box to achieve these ends.

"Friendliest" protest is also farcical. They were not friendly. They were jubilant when they were getting their way. As soon as any enforcement actions were taken or hinted at, that changed. There were police surrounded and swarmed well before the final clearance operation. But when push literally came to shove, they were very, very far from friendly. That's why the operation of 18-20 February looked the way it did.

We each have our respective views on this, but yours appear to be horribly uninformed, and you appear far more interested in what you want to be true than what the facts on the ground actually were. You're entitled to your own opinion, of course- you are not entitled to your own set of facts.

 

[Brad Sallows]

For anyone who hasn't been able to figure out that "the EA" is shorthand in this discussion for "public order provisions of the EA": the use of "the EA" is shorthand in this discussion for "public order provisions of the EA".