Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]

[aesop081]

That is, officers' messes are to be set at the same standard as that found in executive dining rooms of large corporations, etc.

"should"

This has less meaning these days as very locations have separate rank-based dinning facilities.

 

[Scott]

Probably less meaning, as well, because corps are trying to do away with that linen napkin BS. You can't claim as much of it as you might have five years ago.

Question: when folks from the "outside" attend these dinners mentioned previously, where does the money go? i.e., is it going into a welfare fund? Charity? Or straight into the coffers the rest of the funds hit?

I have a discretionary fund for dinners just like the ones mentioned and I use that fund to the max every single year. I have yet to hit one of the dinners not because I don't own a good enough suit but because I have either better things to do or I'm not in the country. I do not buy tickets to, say, Coady Celebrates, because I might meet the president of St FX. I buy because it's going someplace good and because I have the mans allocated.

 

[OldSolduer]

The only time I enter the JR's mess is when ordered to do so or when not attending would be met with a worse alternative. Anyone know if we can donate our mess dues to charity or something instead? Very rarely do any of my friends (20's-30's) attend, so why would I?

Mess dinners aren't that bad but I still am not a huge fan. Can't we just order some pizza or have a BBQ, and be done with it?

Not attending is your prerogative, but relationships are formed at the mess. That carries over to the floor, where you might know someone that knows someone who can help you if you or be of your troops has an issue.

You cannot donate your mess dues to charity AFAIK.

 

[MedCorps]

There are weeks when I get more done in one four our TGIF / TGIT in the mess then I do all week in the office. 

Lots of things get discussed, worldly problems solved, and relationships formed both inside and outside your unit.

MC

 

[dimsum]

There are weeks when I get more done in one four our TGIF / TGIT in the mess then I do all week in the office. 
Lots of things get discussed, worldly problems solved, and relationships formed both inside and outside your unit.

MC

Bolded for emphasis.  It's like any other group in that it's "who you know" more so than "what you know" in many cases.  Businesses do networking events for a reason; we already have all of that set up. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Probably less meaning, as well, because corps are trying to do away with that linen napkin BS. You can't claim as much of it as you might have five years ago.

Question: when folks from the "outside" attend these dinners mentioned previously, where does the money go? i.e., is it going into a welfare fund? Charity? Or straight into the coffers the rest of the funds hit?

I have a discretionary fund for dinners just like the ones mentioned and I use that fund to the max every single year. I have yet to hit one of the dinners not because I don't own a good enough suit but because I have either better things to do or I'm not in the country. I do not buy tickets to, say, Coady Celebrates, because I might meet the president of St FX. I buy because it's going someplace good and because I have the mans allocated.

You have to be invited first ;D

 

[Pusser]

For the most part you're comparing apples to bowling balls.

Re: fire departments - there might be rank structure, there might be a few buttons and bows (no curls), but there isn't a hell of a lot of exclusionary type behaviour - we wouldn't have anyone left if there was. The last Chief I know of who demanded to be referred to as such was punted by his own membership for being a power hungry fool.

Your argument gets weaker, buds.

I'm talking about the concept of a mess as a fraternal social organization in general.  Whether messes are established for each rank, rank group, or not at all is not the  point.  The point is that there are many social organizations out there that are similar to our messes and are thriving.  You're inferring too much specific detail from what I'm saying.

On the subject of separate messes for each rank group, it may be appropriate for some organizations, but not others.  It depends on the nature of the organization.  Dividing the golf and country club dining rooms by income or golf handicap could prove disastrous, but I think it works well in a military environment.  Does Cpl Bloggins really want to have a beer under the watchful eye of Col Atkins all the time?

 

[aesop081]

but I think it works well in a military environment.

Speak for the RCN if you want but saying "military environment" is going a bit far. It works poorly from an RCAF perspective (at least aircrews, which i can speak to)

Good example : A CP-140 crew. Can't go to traditional messes for a beer after a mission because 10 people span everything from Private to LCol.

All-ranks messes, hands down.

 

[MedCorps]

All-ranks messes, hands down.

If the messes were all ranks where would the officers go to gossip about the NCMs and hold mock-PER boards? 

MC

 

[aesop081]

If the messes were all ranks where would the officers go to gossip about the NCMs and hold mock-PER boards? 

MC

I don't know. Go to an all-ranks mess and see.  ;D

Best idea i have seen so far is the Greenwood mess ( and i hate everything else about that place so saying i like something about says alot). Rank-specific rooms for use as required and one all-ranks bar in another room.

Guess which is the only one routinely used.

 

[blacktriangle]

I would have to agree with Cdn Aviator. If it's all about "who you know" (and I'd say that's not far off sometimes) why would I even want to go to the JR's? Basically everyone that can really "help me out" and mentor me at this point are members of the WO's and Sgt's mess. I've only been a guest there a few times - usually if someone of that rank wants to hang out with subordinates, it's done in a public setting or at someone's residence (BBQ) While not an everyday occurence, that just seems to be easier than going to the mess.

The few people I'd actually want to talk to and can still learn something from in the JR's tend to have families or other things going on. They don't go to JR's either.

 

[OldSolduer]

From my perspective, we need the three mess system. Cdn Aviator - Greenwood has it right for the RCAF and the location.

I do not want some out of control know  it all with three minutes in the Army telling me what has to change, be he commissioned or an NCM. And perhaps using the 50 cal finger as well....we all know whe that goes.

 

[aesop081]

From my perspective, we need the three mess system. Cdn Aviator - Greenwood has it right for the RCAF and the location.

I do not want some out of control know  it all with three minutes in the Army telling me what has to change, be he commissioned or an NCM. And perhaps using the 50 cal finger as well....we all know whe that goes.

Yup, i agree with you. For the CA, i understand why separate messes work. I have to admit that, when i was a MCpl instructing in Gagetown, there were times where i would have loved a MCpl's lounge. I can't speak for the RCN as i was never a member of it.

All i wanted to say was that this:

but I think it works well in a military environment. 

was too much of a generalization. It works well in some military environments. Even some non-RCAF smaller facilities (CFS Leitrim for example) have all-ranks messes and the world has yet to end.

 

[OldSolduer]

It all depends on mess membership, numbers, level of training, level of professionalism etc. I can understand why RCAF flight crews want to stick together, it's all about the team.
In the CA, Niner and Nin Charlie should not have to put up its the likes of me when I was one of the know it alls. Now everyone has to put up with me.... ;D

 

[aesop081]

Now everyone has to put up with me.... ;D

;D

Ok, so here's a thought:

The officer's mess will have everyone from the newest 2LT who knows everything to the 4-ring brigade commander who actually knows everything. If they can make it work (believe me, i have seen junior officers tell the big boss what needs to change and doing it with the .50 finger), what makes use so different that we cannot do it without problems ?

 

[blacktriangle]

Jim,

I respect your opinion and experience.

The military can keep the current system. I will continue to happily pay my mess dues and only enter the mess when obligated to for my employment - along with a fair percentage of my peers.

FWIW, The RCAF is not the only org in which members of all three messes work closely and in tight groups. CDN Aviator's example is probably the best though - and does raise some questions about the current system.

With that said, I will bow out of this thread now with respect to the opinions and experience that some of you have. That, and the discussion is not really worth the amount I pay for my mess. That might change should I move up to another mess - I've heard quite a few of you don't get off quite so easy when it comes to your dues!

Cheers.

(and CDN has beat me to it on one of my points)

 

[medicineman]

It all depends on mess membership, numbers, level of training, level of professionalism etc. I can understand why RCAF flight crews want to stick together, it's all about the team.
In the CA, Niner and Nin Charlie should not have to put up its the likes of me when I was one of the know it alls. Now everyone has to put up with me.... ;D

9C gets to put up with what someone might become when they get promoted into the Mess though...know it alls with 3 hooks and a leaf.  I loved those folks - I only ever had one BOS in 2 years with 2RCR.

MM

 

[MARS]

I can't speak for the RCN as i was never a member of it.

The RCN takes things a step further - out of the unique necessity of living on a relatively small tin can with a finite amount of real estate - in that the CO is not part of the Wardroom/Officer's Mess.  He or she has his or her own bar and takes his or her meals in their cabin.

This is so the Ship's Officers have a secure space in which to ***** about the "old man's" particular decisions. 

 

[Jarnhamar]

The "mess" can be a great place to build friendships and bond with your peers. I was dragged to a TGIT last week-first time in 5 or 6 years +. Had a great time. I was surprised at how many people showed up. Had a great opportunity to approach people thank them tell them they've been doing a great job, buy them a drink etc..

Forcing members to attend mess functions leaves a bad taste in peoples mouths. With the amount of nights soldiers spend on duty, working late, exercise's a soldiers free time is very important. Yea it's "only one night" but every night is important.  Seems like more often than not 90% of the people show up just for the other 10% to enjoy it.

Given the language, behaviors, warstories and egos at mess functions I'll never bring my partner to one.

Forcing members to attend seems archaic, the same way forcing privates to serve coffee and cookies to SNCOs on Wendsdays were.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

WO's got cookies and coffee too, not just Snr NCOs.    (My personal favorite was the toast and coffee at the Officers, WOs and Sgts Mess in the Mega.  B Div bullpen was right next to it.  But...we served ourselves.  Polished my owns boots n stuff too!)

And yes even that worked, we had all the baby Officers on SLT there, etc and no riots happened.