Forced to pay / belong to a mess [Merged]

[Pusser]

Can you be forced to pay into a informal unit function (IE Troop Party, Beer Calls) or a formal CF function (IE Mess Dinners, PD Trips) ?

It depends on the circumstances.  There is a fine line between what can be order and what can be expected.  With higher rank, comes higher expectations for certain social obligations.  Can they force you to pay them?  Probably not in the long run, but the real question is whether the money you save worth the social cost?

With regard to mess dinners, mess dress and mess dues, there is a lot of information contained in this thread.  Some of it is correct.  Some of it is wrong (some is REALLY wrong), but here is the bottom line:

1)  Mess membership is mandatory (CFAO 27-1)

2)  In a de facto sense, mess dues are mandatory, but there is no actual regulation that specifically says that.  Mess dues are governed by respective mess constitutions, which may require them.  By belonging to a mess, you must pay mess dues, IF your mess charges them, but there is no requirement for a mess to actually charge dues.  I bring this up because I've heard of cases where individuals were deployed to locations where the deployed "mess" did not charge dues, so their home mess tried to keep them paying based on the idea that "you have to pay mess dues somewhere."  This is not correct.

3)  Yes, you can be ordered to attend a mess dinner.

4)  Yes, Regular Force officers are required to have mess dress.

I can expand on these, should anyone so desire.

 

[dapaterson]

You left out

"Yes, the traditional model of the mess as a class-based set of social clubs has far outlived its usefulness, and needs a dramatic restructure to make it relevant to current and future sailors, soliders and airmen and women."

 

[MedCorps]

3)  Yes, you can be ordered to attend a mess dinner.

4)  Yes, Regular Force officers are required to have mess dress.

See the General Court Martial - R. v. Master Seaman R.J. Middlemiss, 2009 CM 1003 (16 Jan 2009) as case precedence.

The Master Seaman did not want to go.  He did not go.  He was found guilty of Disobedience of a Lawful Command under s. 83 of the
National Defence Act and one count of Absence without Leave under s. 90 of the National Defence Act.

The mess dinner cost to be paid by the member was $35.00

The fine, ordered by Col Dutil that MS Middlemiss paid was $500.00

The math is pretty simple.

MC

 

[aesop081]

The math is pretty simple.

The text of the decision is more interesting than the math, IMHO.

 

[MedCorps]

Agreed.

MC

 

[riggermade]

I'd like to see the CWO who could tell my wife "you will attend". I've tried that with her and got told...in no uncertain terms.

"The Man" cannot order your spouse to attend. Member - yes. Mess Dinners are parades.

You mean your wife never enjoyed going and being grouped with the rest of the wives while you drank and talked work with the boys?

 

[my72jeep]

Way back when I for sum moral reason, I cant think of any more, refused to attend Mess Dinners. I would let it be known that I didn't want to go and presto who ever was on duty that night and wanted to go payed my fee and I took the duty. To this day I can't understand what my objection to port ,wine, scotch and cigars was?

 

[my72jeep]

You mean your wife never enjoyed going and being grouped with the rest of the wives while you drank and talked work with the boys?

Was that grouped or groped?

 

[riggermade]

Was that grouped or groped?

That came later when she was trying to get me out of my mess kit and I was a lovin' machine

 

[Jarnhamar]

Thread necromancerer- Tell those sgt's to bring same sex dates dressed in whatever outlandish dress they can get away with to the mess function.
Might not do the career so well might save them the monotony of another forced mess party in the future.
Plus guys are easy.

 

[Pusser]

You left out

"Yes, the traditional model of the mess as a class-based set of social clubs has far outlived its usefulness, and needs a dramatic restructure to make it relevant to current and future sailors, soliders and airmen and women."

I didn't leave that out.  I would never agree to such a statement.  If messes are so outdated, why are there so many non-military organizations trying to emulate them?  There are many in the military trying to get rid of something we have (for relatively low personal cost) that many in the civilian world are trying desperately to get, and for which they are willing to pay huge sums.

 

[Pusser]

Thread necromancerer- Tell those sgt's to bring same sex dates dressed in whatever outlandish dress they can get away with to the mess function.
Might not do the career so well might save them the monotony of another forced mess party in the future.
Plus guys are easy.

Many years ago, a friend told me that he was once ordered to go to a function and to bring a date.  He showed up with a good friend and drinking buddy who also happened to a"lady of the evening" who was also well known to all the senior officers AND their wives.  He was never ordered to attend a function again.  My friend never avanced far in rank, but his career was certainly colourful!

 

[Scott]

How are those groups that emulate them doing, anyway? I hear Legion membership is booming...and I have never seen separate bars, but anyway, you keep to your point at all costs.

Sorry, but I hear debates about buttons, bows, curls and bullshit warming up.

 

[Pusser]

How are those groups that emulate them doing, anyway? I hear Legion membership is booming...and I have never seen separate bars, but anyway, you keep to your point at all costs.

Sorry, but I hear debates about buttons, bows, curls and bullshit warming up.

Who said anything about the Legion?  They're a lost cause who've lost the bubble.  Look at all the private clubs that exist and are thriving.  Look at large corporations.  They all have things that analagous to our messes.  They just call them different things.

 

[Strike]

Who said anything about the Legion?  They're a lost cause who've lost the bubble.  Look at all the private clubs that exist and are thriving.  Look at large corporations.  They all have things that analagous to our messes.  They just call them different things.

I agree.  Look at all the mucky-mucks who get on waiting lists to go to the Army/Vimy/Battle for the Atlantic balls/dinners.  Events like that are admired by our civilian counterparts but we still have people whinging about paying a few bucks once, maybe twice, a year and having to dress up.  :

 

[Scott]

Perhaps you should have been a little more clear about which private groups you meant.

Sorry, I have been in private industry for quite some time now and I have been to many of those dinners. None of them remind me of a messing system.

You're making pretty broad statements, IMO.

 

[blacktriangle]

The only time I enter the JR's mess is when ordered to do so or when not attending would be met with a worse alternative. Anyone know if we can donate our mess dues to charity or something instead? Very rarely do any of my friends (20's-30's) attend, so why would I?

Mess dinners aren't that bad but I still am not a huge fan. Can't we just order some pizza or have a BBQ, and be done with it?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Let's see.

RSM orders a Mess dinner and makes it a parade for all Sgts & WOs;

You can pay the tariff, enjoy all the amenities of the meals, conversation  and drinks;

                --------------or--------------

You attend, sit with your glass of water and no meal or drinks, partake of the conversation around you, wait until the guest speaker has had his say and leave after being dismissed by the RSM.

I don't see a problem. :dunno:

 

[Pusser]

Perhaps you should have been a little more clear about which private groups you meant.

Sorry, I have been in private industry for quite some time now and I have been to many of those dinners. None of them remind me of a messing system.

You're making pretty broad statements, IMO.

Not identical and not necessarily universal, but the concept is similar and does exist.  Some police forces have messes as do some fire departments (particularly volunteer ones).  Many folks belong to are want to belong to private clubs, which one could argue are almost identical to messes.  In fact in some fields, club membership is a de facto requirement, often costing thousands of dollars.  It's interesting to note that the CF manual on dining standards actually says that dining rooms in the CF should conform to standards set by private industry.  That is, officers' messes are to be set at the same standard as that found in executive dining rooms of large corporations, etc.

 

[Scott]

For the most part you're comparing apples to bowling balls.

Re: fire departments - there might be rank structure, there might be a few buttons and bows (no curls), but there isn't a hell of a lot of exclusionary type behaviour - we wouldn't have anyone left if there was. The last Chief I know of who demanded to be referred to as such was punted by his own membership for being a power hungry dickhead.

Your argument gets weaker, buds.