Fitness Standards

[Roy Harding]

airmich:

I think dangerboy has addressed one of your questions - IE, by the time a new Infmn arrives at Bn - he (should) already exceed the minimum standard - thus there's no problem.

As far as your personal experience goes regarding being attached to a fd unit - I think your experience illustrates a lack of leadership on "someone's" part.  Who that someone may have been - I don't know.  But that "someone" should have been capable of realizing your different situation and taken steps to avoid hurting you.  Sorry it didn't turn out that way for you - and good on ya' for doing it anyway.

In a way - the personal situation you outlined in your post reflects how MANY of my troops arrived at field units (I was, after all, a freakin' CLERK!).  If they were posted in during the summer (as was normal), and a unit BFT was scheduled for September (as was normal), a quick word from me to the CSM was usually all it took to have them excused from the September BFT.  Of course, I also always solemnly swore that I'd have the "newbie" in shape by December - and I only recall one instance in which I failed to keep that promise.

Common sense needs to prevail - of course.  And I'm not suggesting that Air Force or Navy folk need meet the same standard.  Hell - I wouldn't want to have to meet the Navy standard for fire fighting - that shit scares the hell out of me. 

But I do think that there was (when I retired in '04) an attitude, especially amongst Army CSS folk (and I was one - so don't play that card), that meeting the "minimum standard" (which is what the BFT is) was "acceptable".  It's THAT attitude that I'm railing against. 

I have no interest in making airmen or sailors into soldiers - that's not their role.  They've got their own set of problems.

Roy

 

[Larkvall]

As an outsider it seems a little strange to me.

When you consider the incident on Friday it is not hard to imagine doing a BFT in 35C+ heat with maybe some humidity is harder than doing one when the temperature is 5 C. We are talking 2 different standards here based on temperature. Sure it is possible to do one in a temperature of 35C, but statistically wouldn't it be easier to meet the minimum standard in October as opposed to July?

 

[Roy Harding]

As an outsider it seems a little strange to me.

When you consider the incident on Friday it is not hard to imagine doing a BFT in 35C+ heat with maybe some humidity is harder than doing one when the temperature is 5 C. We are talking 2 different standards here based on temperature. Sure it is possible to do one in a temperature of 35C, but statistically wouldn't it be easier to meet the minimum standard in October as opposed to July?

You're right - and I don't have all the facts available regarding conditions on that particular BFT.

The question is - should meeting the "minimum standard" be enough?  Not to mention - should meeting the minimum standard be made "easier" in some way?  (Recognizing that there are valid medical concerns regarding atmospheric conditions that should NOT be exceeded during training).


Roy

 

[MikeL]

As an outsider it seems a little strange to me.

When you consider the incident on Friday it is not hard to imagine doing a BFT in 35C+ heat with maybe some humidity is harder than doing one when the temperature is 5 C. We are talking 2 different standards here based on temperature. Sure it is possible to do one in a temperature of 35C, but statistically wouldn't it be easier to meet the minimum standard in October as opposed to July?

We can't just train when its cooler/more comfortable outside. We don't stop patrolling, conducting ops, etc in Afghanistan during the summer time because its hot outside. 


Train as you fight.

 

[Jammer]

In Bde units...NO ONE does the BFT on their own time.
Anyone who was on Roto 0 in Kabul will remember the odds and sods as well as straphangers thrown together outside of the BG who had to do a BFT around the perimeter of Camp Julien AFTER they arrived in theater in 40 degree heat.
If they failed, they were on the first flight repat'd.
Some standard!

 

[Roy Harding]

...
Train as you fight.

Bingo!

In Bde units...NO ONE does the BFT on their own time.
Anyone who was on Roto 0 in Kabul will remember the odds and sods as well as straphangers thrown together outside of the BG who had to do a BFT around the perimeter of Camp Julien AFTER they arrived in theater in 40 degree heat.
If they failed, they were on the first flight repat'd.
Some standard!

Bingo again!

The question in my mind - however - is what those folks who failed were doing there anyway.  This SHOULD have been taken care of prior to deployment.

Once again - I'm not suggesting that training take place outside the quite reasonable standards set by the medical folk - to do so would result in unnecessary and stupid injuries to soldiers.

What I AM suggesting, however, is that if training is well ABOVE the minimum standard - then failures such as Jammer outlines would not occur.

Of course - if we (the corporate we) had confidence that ALL soldiers met AT LEAST the minimum standard ALL THE TIME, then BFTs in the middle of operations such as Jammer describes would not be necessary - operations are hardly the place to determine if folk are ready for operations, after all.

Roy

 

[Infanteer]

What does the BFT have to do with either Battle or Fitness?  Not much to either - and I question it's utility when most only feel challenged by the some buggered up feet for a few days.  It isn't really even a test - its pass/fail status only recognizes the minimum and, for the most part, it's done in a group and doesn't really test 80% of the guys doing it.

IMHO, the Marines have it right with their new Combat Fitness Test.

 

[Roy Harding]

...

IMHO, the Marines have it right with their new Combat Fitness Test.

I agree with what you've said.

Can you provide a synopsis or link to the Marine Combat Fitness Test you mentioned?

 

[blacktriangle]

First of all, I would like to thank Roy Harding for starting this discussion.

I have been doing PT rather religiously for the last 4 years. I have never looked at the minimum standard as something that I wanted to attain. For me, I have found that just setting higher expectations for myself helps. I've seen what minimum standards and effort achieve. I don't want to look like that.


However, after seeing how PT "standards" actually work in the CF, I will say that we need to focus more on GETTING everyone to the minimum standard, before we worry about them surpassing it.

At the same time, outside people being sent to field units from HQs/AF/Navy can't be expected to have the same level of fitness, can they? It doesn't make sense for those pers to suddenly be subjected to damaging PT that they have never experienced before. All CF members should be looked upon as investments, and as important as it is to get them fit, unnecessary injuries only help to reduce the overall readiness of our force.

I wonder if offering incentives would work to motivate people? Bring in Fitness Category bonuses for people that get exempt on express tests? A small amount every month because a soldier exceeds the minimum standard? I bet that would be judged as illegal/unfair to those who are too unfit to receive it, though.

How much bearing does PT have on promotion/leadership courses? I'm assuming that if you run the BFT in an hour you get the same PASS as someone who barely walked it in time?



Also, +1 to what Skeletor said.

 

[Infanteer]

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marines/a/cft.htm

The actual events are debatable, but the following principles are what are right:

1)  The event is scored, meaning that greater degrees of fitness are recognized;

2)  The score goes on the yearly evaluation, which means that fitness is relevent to one's promotion prospects;

3)  The event mixes up events, which challenge whole body fitness; and

4)  The main focus is on a "Maneuver Under Fire" test - a test which focuses on the features of fitness required for battle; short, anerobic bursts using the whole body sustained for a period of time.

 

[Roy Harding]

Infanteer:  Thanks for that - I haven't followed the link you provided (I will) - but your synopsis seems to be "on the money".

Speaking of money:  popnfresh - what an "outside the box" idea you have there.  Financial recompense for being good at (a part of) your job.  I think there's a germ of an idea there - but I'm not sure it would be worth the hassles.  Do you have examples from other militaries which pursued this practice?

 

[blacktriangle]

Speaking of money:  popnfresh - what an "outside the box" idea you have there.  Financial recompense for being good at (a part of) your job.  I think there's a germ of an idea there - but I'm not sure it would be worth the hassles.  Do you have examples from other militaries which pursued this practice?

Sure. Our military.

-CANSOFCOM
-SAR Techs

While the pers in these trades/units aren't paid specifically for their fitness level (as they have other various skillsets that warrant compensation) I would argue that without their superior levels of fitness, they would have failed to meet bona fide occupational requirements for employment within the aforementioned groups.

Thus, as I see it, they are however indirectly, being paid a premium to maintain superior physical fitness.

NOW,

With that said, I don't believe that is the way it should work. While it would be nice to get some extra coin to buy some new running shoes or an ice pack for my aching body, I chose to join. I think we need to instill the mentality in all members that proper fitness is a bona fide requirement for employment with the CF. No excuses. If we all looked at it that way, then people would realize that we already are paid to keep in shape. CF members have access to fitness and recreational facilities at no cost generally speaking.

If the current standard is sufficient (and we all know it's pretty hurtin') then fine. It must be strictly adhered to, and adequate fitness information and  exercise routines force fed to the troops. No excuses everyone from the bottom up does it, and passes. Everyone from the top down participates and more importantly, enforces it.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Bingo!

Bingo again!

The question in my mind - however - is what those folks who failed were doing there anyway.  This SHOULD have been taken care of prior to deployment.

Once again - I'm not suggesting that training take place outside the quite reasonable standards set by the medical folk - to do so would result in unnecessary and stupid injuries to soldiers.

What I AM suggesting, however, is that if training is well ABOVE the minimum standard - then failures such as Jammer outlines would not occur.

Of course - if we (the corporate we) had confidence that ALL soldiers met AT LEAST the minimum standard ALL THE TIME, then BFTs in the middle of operations such as Jammer describes would not be necessary - operations are hardly the place to determine if folk are ready for operations, after all.

Roy

My last two deployments I have not done a BFT.Lucky for me I had a Excempt express test from 2 years prior which was still good.Due to the courses,work up,and trying to give me leave...well I accrued 7 days last year alone.

Being able to do the BFT proves nothing IMHO.It isnt even a minimal fitness standard.It's a walk that destroys a pile of guys feet for two days.Big deal.

I do like the idea Infanteer sugested but alas I have come to the conclusion that some forum of physical test like that of marines will never happen.Too many people would fail.IMHO walking 13km is fairly easy for everyone.A well balanced physical test would make way too many in the battle group fail and how do we then deploy?

The talk of doing more PT etc at units compared to a school or differnt posting is B/S from my view.

I have been back to my unit for two years and have maybe done PT organised 15 times.We are too busy.As covered many times here pt gets cut right away.While I do live a VERY active life style and go to the gym 4 times a week I am in much worse shape than I was in a relaxed school setting where I could plan a PT program more than 1 week at a time.And sustain a work out plan over months without 2 week breaks for field deployments etc.

To note prior to going on leave we did a fitness challange that contained a run, push ups situps pull ups and swim.That was a display of condition.However I think if a score was added....well many people would have been below par.

 

[MikeL]

I do like the idea Infanteer sugested but alas I have come to the conclusion that some forum of physical test like
that of marines will never happen.Too many people would fail.IMHO walking 13km is fairly easy for everyone.A well
balanced physical test would make way too many in the battle group fail and how do we then deploy?

Combat Arms units could adopt it as an unofficial fitness test so unit commanders can see how fit their troops are.
Plus it would help break up the routine by doing something different once in awhile an let you see how fit you are
in a test setting. Or just use aspects(or the whole thing) of the CFT occasionly for morning PT. My Pl has done
morning PT with parts of it similar to events of the USMC CFT, made PT a bit more interesting, etc.

In my BN some of the Rifle Companies an Recce Pl do the coopers test to assess how fit troops are.

 

[PMedMoe]

My last two deployments I have not done a BFT.Lucky for me I had a Excempt express test from 2 years prior which was still good.

You deployed without having done a BFT?  I thought that was the standard for deployment.  ???

I was with an "anal" unit who thought it had to be done within the fiscal year, never mind that your last one would be good until you returned from tour.  Thankfully, for my A'stan deployment, I only did it once.  For Bosnia I did it before I went and while I was there.  :  One Roto got stuck doing it three times (twice before and once during).

 

[Fishbone Jones]

The BFT is not designed to see if you are a superninjascubasniper. It's to see if you meet the minimal standard of physical fitness as determined by the higher paygrade people that direct our everyday work. How about stopping the amateur guessing about who's the toughest prick on the block. Go ahead and exceed that standard if you wish. However, it's not within anyone's pervue, here, to determine someone elses dedication or fitness because they meet the prescibed standard. All I've seen so far are a bunch of people beating their chests and saying "I do the 13 km twice a day, and it sucks. You have to meet my standard or your all weak, lazy shits". Guess what. I don't have to meet your standard, or anyone elses. The only one I have to meet is the one set down by my Command. Should I strive to do better? Yes. Do I? Absolutely. Just understand one thing. The Army says 13km, with certain kit, in a certain time. It says nothing about doing it in three ranks, or carrying your rifle at the ready. Until you become head of the Army, and change things, people will, and only have to, follow the minimal direction given. And all your macho chest beating won't change things one iota.

 

[Gunner98]

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marines/a/cft.htm

The actual events are debatable, but the following principles are what are right:

1)  The event is scored, meaning that greater degrees of fitness are recognized;

2)  The score goes on the yearly evaluation, which means that fitness is relevent to one's promotion prospects;

3)  The event mixes up events, which challenge whole body fitness; and

4)  The main focus is on a "Maneuver Under Fire" test - a test which focuses on the features of fitness required for battle; short, anerobic bursts using the whole body sustained for a period of time.

Let's also keep in mind the Marines still differentiate in a big way between Male and Female Standards on their "combat test" (not EXPRES-level trg), while our BFT is gender neutral.  To meet the minimum Marine standard for "combat" would take at most 10:58 for men and 13:50 for women. So you think that your attendance on courses, your annual PER and promotion should be greatly influenced by your best 11/14 minutes (which includes 2 minutes for ammo lifts) of the year and don't forget those amazing '3 push-ups'.  I have attended a 4-month Capt career course  in the US (when I was 42 with more than 20 yrs in uniform) and I was not in awe of their physical standards although I did enjoy running with cadence songs.

The Marine PFT is conducted semi-annually:

Minimum Fitness Requirments for Each PFT Event - Males
Age Pull-Ups Crunches 3-Mile Run
17-26   3         50         28:00
27-39   3         45 29:00
40-45  3         45 30:00
46+   3         40 33:00
Marine Corps PFT Classification Scores - Male and Female
Class Age 17-26 Age 27-39 Age 40-45 Age 46+
1st 225 200 175 150
2nd 175 150 125 100
3rd 135 110 88 65

All pers must meet 3rd class minimum to pass.
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/marines/l/blfitmale.htm

 

[Roy Harding]

Just to re-emphasize what recceguy said - this is not about chest thumping.  My concern (and it is SPECIFIC to field troops of any trade) is that SOME folk are training only to MEET the MINIMUM standard, and are satisfied with meeting that MINIMUM standard.  And that, in my opinion is foolhardy.

That's all I was suggesting - I don't see how the BFT applies to Air or Navy personnel,  nor do I think it should be applied to them.  Although never having served in the Navy, it is my impression that being able to carry your buddy away from a fire - whilst encumbered with breathing apparatus, and in the dark, is a much more valuable skill to a sailor than being able to walk 13 km with a ruck on your back in a set time.

 

[aesop081]

I don't see how the BFT applies to Air or Navy personnel,

It certainly does Roy. When things go bad for me on an overland ISR mission ( assuming i survive the crash or the jump) i very much find myself on the ground having to potentialy evade and walk long distances before recue can be attempted. The ASERE course alone had me running and walking with my go-bag for 2 and a half days nearly non-stop.

 

[Roy Harding]

It certainly does Roy. When things go bad for me on an overland ISR mission ( assuming i survive the crash or the jump) i very much find myself on the ground having to potentialy evade and walk long distances before recue can be attempted. The ASERE course alone had me running and walking with my go-bag for 2 and a half days nearly non-stop.

Fair enough, I stand corrected.  I was merely exposing my ignorance regarding the needs of the Air Force and Navy 

So - is there enough of a need within the Air Force that it should adopt the BFT for EVERYONE (I'm thinking the maintainers, etcetera) - and I'll leave the non-ship helicopter squadrons (what used to be 10 TAG - does it, or a similar organization still exist?) out of it for now.  Those "10 TAG" troops are, for all intents and purposes, Army folk anyway - and have similar needs for training.