Fitness Standards

[Buzz]

Only meant to help...not hinder..

 

[armyrules]

that is a great idea Buzz I'll have to check that out cheers

 

[chriscalow]

No worries,  It's all eyes and ears open and mouth shut.  It's worked out great though. 

 

[furtive]

Just to weigh in with my experience.  When I was teaching QL3 Armoured Crewman for the militia in 2001 (LFQA aka SQFT) we weren't allowed to give more than 25 pushups at a time.  In fact even then I think they stopped us from giving any "exercise as punishment" whatsoever (too many abuses of power, which happens more often than it should in the reserves). 

In fact, orders got so bad at one point (I think it had to do with the stupid "no running with combat boots" rule) that when having candidates practice with C-9/C-6 assembly/disassembly we couldn't have them do "baton races" (one person disassembles the weapon, runs around the tent, tags next person who assembles, it runs around the tent, tags the next person, etc...) even though the candidates all loved it.

 

[Roy Harding]

Copied from the "LCol collapses during BFT thread"

I agree with you, basrah.  Except for two things:

I HAVE seen a soldier pass out from heat exhaustion - granted he was a junior Private, and the CofC should have had a closer eye on him. 

And the part about hydrating for a week before the BFT.  In various units I was proud to serve with (Cdn AB Regt and 3 VP are two that jump immediately to mind) - it was a matter of pride that the CO just woke up in the morning and said to himself - let's do a BFT today.  When you arrived to work, you were told "Ruck up, draw your weapon - we're goin' for a walk".  No chance to hydrate for a week before - just get goin' and make sure you have water in your canteen.

As you said - it still remains to be seen if this particular fellow had pre-existing health concerns (known or undetected).

Roy

Very true. A lot of the younger soldiers really do not know how to prepare for a BFT. Some think that a set of good socks and a bit of stretching will do it. As leaders, snr troops should be looking after the greenhorns.

Also, you are very correct in the lack of preparation. I am sure anyone who did the old 2x10 can attest that there wasnt always time to properly prepare for hydration, and often it was a fastball.

That being said though, in this day, we are all given fair warning about a BFT (95% of the time), and it ultimately does lay in the hands of the soldier to prepare. Of course the soldier must be taught properly as well.

Remember all, if you are thirsty, you are already dehydrated.

Best wishes for a fast recovery.

I won't say much because I am privy to some information regarding this.

I will say, this officer was in extremely good shape for a man his age and no stranger to BFTs and preparing for them.

It's one thing to train in extreme heat or cold when it needs to be done, quite another when it's unnecessary.  That being said, at Connaught, they do a BFT every month, so I'm quite sure they could have canceled this one.

Also, there is a such thing as over hydrating.  A person consumes too much water and their heart and lungs have to struggle to work against waterlogged muscles.

Yes, here's hoping for a speedy recovery for this fine gentleman (yes, I've met him).

Edit to add:  The reason no one knew where he was is because he was well ahead (about 0.5 km) of the main body and took a different turn to the finish point.  (Either the route was not marked or had not been explained).  It was only noted that he was missing when everyone else finished.  He was actually off the road in high grass.

I've copied the above posts because

A.  I wanted to continue the discussion, and

B.  I didn't want to hijack the thread these posts originally appeared in.


Roy

Edited to add:  It should be noted that some of the remarks contained in the above quotes have nothing to do with Training Standards - they are in relation to the unfortunate report of a soldier who collapsed during a BFT ( http://forums.milnet.ca/forums/threads/88481.0.html )- and have nothing to do with the current discussion.

RHH

 

[Roy Harding]

OK.  Having (I think) separated the two subjects (I didn't want to do a split, because the original posts were ALSO pertinent to the original thread), there are a couple of posts I want to address.

BFT is a MINIMAL standard.  It should be expected that ANY soldier, at ANY time should be able to accomplish this task - without warning, despite atmospheric conditions, time of day, time of year, or anything else.

There was (whilst I still served) a pernicious attitude (especially amongst CSS troops - no finger pointing intended - I WAS a CSS troop) that the BFT was something that one needed to train for.

BS, I say.  If one needed to "train" for the BFT - then there was something wrong.  This is not a new thought to me - when I was the Ops NCO of 1 Svc Bn in 1994 I said the same thing, loud and proud - and was (basically) told to STFU.

Let's face it - the BFT is a bullshit test - if you don't meet this standard, you're in the hurt locker.  You should (and I have) be able to do this after a weekend drunk, while still nursing your hangover (my personal experience dates back to the BFT's predecessor - the "2 X 10").  It is a MINIMUM standard.

And training to a "minimal standard" leads to have "minimal soldiers".

Thoughts?  Discussion?

 

[old medic]

Who in their right mind would do a 13km in that kind of heat?

Nobody. At least, nobody should have been.

There have been repeated warnings about this sort of thing for many years.
It can also be found in at least five DND/CF publications (General safety manual,
Training manual, Medical Services manual)....
example:

Army Lessons Learned Center The Bulletin
VOL 5 NO 1 - MAY 1998  Beware of Heat Illness
http://armyapp.forces.gc.ca/allc-clra/Downloads/bulletin/TheBulletinVol5No1eng.pdf

Note the buddy system... Puckchaser has it right.

Are you serious? So we should start moving training to allow it to be easier? No more winter ex if it is too cold out? Ive done BFTs when it is -20 and + 40, never have I seen a soldier pass out.

That's the same thinking that caused a life threatening brain injury.

Lets take a read of the Training Manual
B-GL-381-001-TS-000  Training Safety 2007 edition
http://armyapp.forces.gc.ca/ael/pubs/B-GL-381-001-TS-000(CH9).pdf
SECTION 5
Hot Weather Training......................................1-90

221. Commanders’ Guidelines for Preventing
Heat Stress Casualties. At a WBGT measure of
27.5 °C and over, work/rest cycles and water
discipline shall be implemented. At a WBGT
index of 32 °C commanders should suspend all
strenuous physical activity for all personnel.

222. Commanders should ensure that the
guidelines are not exceeded unless essential
tactical considerations are paramount. If the
guidelines must be exceeded for operational
requirements, commanders can expect heat
casualties in direct proportion to the heat stress
index and physical activity. The guidelines are
based on the assumptions that personnel:

a. are drinking at least the minimum
recommended quantities of water;

b. are fully acclimatized;

c. are not wearing special clothing or
are not in enclosed vehicles, aircraft
or buildings (e.g. chemical protective
clothing or closed armour vehicles);
and....

"Shall be implimented". Sounds like a command.

So, if the second newspaper article is to be believed, the dry (not the wet bulb)
temprature was 30 celcius.  They were at least required to have level 4 or 5 (above 32 wbgt)
heat stress precautions in place, meaning maximum 20 minutes activity.

I seriously doubt they were doing 13km in under 20 minutes, and there is no chance
this was essential tactical consideration. 

The book even says to expect casualties when you do.

It's the same in the US, the temprature of 30c - 86F would have put the yellow flag (heat category 3) up, and the activity would have been classified as heavy work (maximum 30 minutes activity only). However, the pack weight would have moved it up to red (category 4) maximum 20 minutes activity only.
Source: TB MED 507/AFPAM 48-152


<edit, repaired my spelling>

 

[basrah]

Edit to add:  The reason no one knew where he was is because he was well ahead (about 0.5 km) of the main body and took a different turn to the finish point.  (Either the route was not marked or had not been explained).  It was only noted that he was missing when everyone else finished.  He was actually off the road in high grass.

Since when are BFTs done on your own time? Ive done one or two in my time and have never seen someone finish on their own time, ahead of the group.

 

[basrah]

That's the same thinking that caused a life threatening brain injury.


So, if the second newspaper article is to be believed, the dry (not the wet bulb)
temprature was 30 celcius.  They were at least required to have level 4 or 5 (above 32 wbgt)
heat stress precautions in place, meaning maximum 20 minutes activity.

And teaching soldiers that if the weather is too hot dont go out is really going to help soldiers over seas? Just because training has the potential to cause harm doesnt mean we should avoid it. Soldiers must be taught the correct safety precautions to deal with such potentially harmful situations, and bring these lessons with them overseas.

A BFT every month? Unless this is a CANSOFCOM unit, I highly doubt that.

30 degrees? From the way everyone is talking I was expecting it to be closer to 40... 30 really is not all that hot.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Since when are BFTs done on your own time? Ive done one or two in my time and have never seen someone finish on their own time, ahead of the group.

Some like to shoot through it and do it in a couple of hours. Others like to take the full alloted time. This is not a forced march and there is no written requirement for it to be done as a formed unit.

 

[Larkvall]

What is going to happen to him?

Is he going to get thrown out because he didn't pass?

 

[old medic]

And teaching soldiers that if the weather is too hot dont go out is really going to help soldiers over seas? Just because training has the potential to cause harm doesnt mean we should avoid it. Soldiers must be taught the correct safety precautions to deal with such potentially harmful situations, and bring these lessons with them overseas.

A BFT every month? Unless this is a CANSOFCOM unit, I highly doubt that.

30 degrees? From the way everyone is talking I was expecting it to be closer to 40... 30 really is not all that hot.

I'll work backwards.  The article said 30, but gave no indication of humidex or wet.  It may well have been above 40 once factored in for all we know.

I don't think this was a formed unit event. Sounds more like a scheduled event that NCR units sent
people too as required. I don't think it would be the same people doing it once a month.

Re, teaching soldiers.  It's not about teaching soldiers. It's about simple disregard for a policy that
is repeated and sent out once or twice a year. Infact, it wasn't even a

potenial to cause harm

.
The book actually says it will cause harm.  In this case, someone is on a respirator and may die.
Disregarding all known orders and doctrine and killing your troops in Ottawa for the sake of not
messing up your 0830 to 0430 schedule is not responsible training and gives a very different lesson.

 

[old medic]

What is going to happen to him?

Is he going to get thrown out because he didn't pass?

No. 
Now Health Services will take care of him and attempt to heal the injuries.

 

[Jammer]

...then he gets another opportunity to do it again.
If he isn't successful then he goes on RW has to do the CF EXPRES test.
If he passes, he good. If not, he goes on remedial PT for 6 months and if he STILL can't meet the standard,it's C&P...blah blah.
Being a LCol, well you can draw your own conclusions.

 

[PMedMoe]

A BFT every month? Unless this is a CANSOFCOM unit, I highly doubt that.

Are you posted to Ottawa?  Do you know what the guys at Connaught do?  They do a lot of the work up training (ranges, first aid, BFT) for people deploying to Ottawa.

 

[X-mo-1979]

Since when are BFTs done on your own time? Ive done one or two in my time and have never seen someone finish on their own time, ahead of the group.

I have seen it every year.
My first 6 years of the military I would have agreed with oyu.Being posted to a unit the BFT was a form up in ranks and walk at someone elses pace.However after getting posted into a school position in LFAA  Idiscovered that there they called it the IBFT Individual Battle fitness test.Meaning they sent out sentrys for all turns,water station/man eating truck and .....let us do it all on our own!
Timer started and off we went.If you wanted to run the whole thing,go for it finish in a hour.Those whom did not cross failed...all by themselves.


Having said that to back up what PMEDMOE is saying I have done 6 BFT's in one year....course after course after....

 

[PMedMoe]

True, X-mo-1979.  At our unit, we always started as a group but usually by halfway we were spread out over a kilometre or so.  I do know of units that do it as a group as well.

 

[Roy Harding]

Sorry to have revived this thread (and moved various posts over to it), and then disappeared.  It was not my intention.  Life has a way of doing that sometimes.

I revived this thread with a specific purpose in mind - and that purpose was/is to discuss what MINIMAL fitness standards mean.  I hasten to point out that what is said here in no way reflects upon the gentlemen discussed in the thread regarding the soldier collapsing on a BFT.  What I say here is intended for soldiers serving in a field unit - Headquarters, bases, and other static locations are a different kettle of fish.

Before I begin, however, I want to address a couple of things that have been brought up here during my absence.

Someone (I don't recall and it's not important who) questioned whether a unit would do more than one or two BFTs per year - perhaps as many as one a month.  Yes indeed - that happens.  When I was on strength of LFWA HQ (a unit - with a CO and everything), given the nature of the work involved, it was impossible to have EVERYONE do the BFT at the same time.  You could not (at that time, and I imagine it's still the same for other HQs and static units) simply shut the place down and do a BFT.  Consequently, there were six to eight BFTs scheduled every year - section heads were able to slot individuals into at least one serial per year, without disrupting the work of the section.  I loaded myself on every serial that I had a soldier participating in (I was a Sgt at the time - if that matters).  And I ALWAYS brought the last soldier of that serial in - period.  I didn't care about personal time, or whether I'd get a "check in the box" for failing to come in on time or not - I brought the weakest man in, every time.  So - I did six to eight BFTs every year - while on strength of that particular unit.  Not unusual, I think.

Others (again I won't specify - but mostly our resident medics and affiliated personnel) have pointed out that there are medical limits to the atmospheric conditions one trains in - and they were quite right to do so.  Exceeding those limits would unnecessarily injure some soldiers, prove nothing, and would be, frankly - stupid.  It was not my intention to imply that one should ignore medical limitations imposed on all of us - and if it came across that way - I apologize - I was in a hurry when I revived this thread.

Still others (I can't remember if it was here or on another thread) have pointed out that there exists a CF manual which outlines how one should "work up" to a BFT.  And whoever it was is correct - there is such a manual - and in my opinion it was aimed at those in static locations who merely must pass the BFT annually - it was a BS manual for field troops (of ANY branch/trade) when it was published, and it remains so today.  It is, of course, a valuable resource for those in static locations/jobs who do not participate in unit PT (for whatever reason).

Now - I think I have answered (perhaps not their originator's satisfaction) those objections to my original premise which have cropped up while I was away - if I'm incorrect - please join in the discussion.

My original premise was that training to MINIMAL standards produces MINIMAL soldiers.  And I hold that to be true.

If you are in a field unit, and I don't care whether that's an Inf Bn, Armd Regt, Arty Regt, Engr Regt or Svc Bn, it is part of your bread and butter to be BETTER than the minimum CF standard.  If you aren't - you're a hurtin' unit (both individually and as a CF Unit) - and you need to get your act together.

ANYBODY on strength of ANY field deployable unit who needs to "work up" and "plan" for a BFT is not doing part of their job.  It (the BFT) should be viewed as a "walk in the park" - because that's what it is, for field soldiers.

Long winded post - and although I have more to add, I'll take a breather here.

My intention was, and remains, to stimulate discussion on Fitness Standards - not to slag anyone.


Roy

 

[navymich]

ANYBODY on strength of ANY field deployable unit who needs to "work up" and "plan" for a BFT is not doing part of their job.  It (the BFT) should be viewed as a "walk in the park" - because that's what it is, for field soldiers.

However, there are the times where you get non-field soldiers who are attached to a field unit for workup training who are not given the time/opportunity/knowledge to prepare for a BFT who are then sent for the "walk in the park".  I was one such person.  I had never done a BFT in my whole career.  I joined the unit I was attached to, they took us on a couple of hikes (three 3km marches with minimal pack weight over the time period of 3 days), had a day rest then went on the BFT.  I completed it in good time, but I was a hurting unit.  The "training"  marches had destroyed the soles of my feet and they never healed in time for me to try different techniques to make things smoother.  The word fail was never on my mind and I continued one foot in front of the other. 

I'm at a unit where you do the expres test yearly, fit in PT at your own time/pace (shift work doesn't allow for group PT) and that's that.  If you look at the standards I am expected to meet, I am above that.  But put a square peg in a round hole, and the standards are different.  Some will say that I should have been prepared for the BFT (very short notice of my attach-posting did not allow for this).  Others will say that we are all soldiers and should all be able to do this regardless.  But as Roy has pointed out, there are military members that are different.

So, what is the solution for a situation like this?  Should people be treated different if they are attached to a different element/unit?  Should they be held back until they are at an equal level of those they are joining?  Should all units regardless of location/element/trade be expected to do a BFT yearly?  I am curious too, as to how a new Pte in a field unit is prepped for their first BFT?  They aren't the seasoned soldier who has done a few BFTs each year and have it as a walk in the park. 

Just adding to the discussion...Roy, I've said it before, it's great to have you back and have your input on subjects.  It's knowledgeable and entertaining and easy to join in to.

 

[dangerboy]

  I am curious too, as to how a new Pte in a field unit is prepped for their first BFT?  They aren't the seasoned soldier who has done a few BFTs each year and have it as a walk in the park. 

From the Infantry point of view, the new Pte is over the duration of his Basic Infantry Course worked up to a 13km march and at the end of the course (roughly) they would complete it.