Fighting is for men

[Unknown Factor]

Perhaps this shows that we are a little immature to seperating females and males - I've seen it work with almost no seperation what-so-ever.

I agree it did work, within the Cbt Units, where it didn't work was in the schools and because of a few leaders that abused thier posn it has set us back probably 10 - 15 years and have set the new standard we see today.

 

[Infanteer]

OK, so schools and dumbasses at the schools were the problem - I think that's a small concern when you consider that on operations, things seem to go fairly well.

 

[armyvern]

I don't think this has anything to do with whether or not a woman can do a man's job

Yes, it has everything to do with whether or not she can do the job. Whether you like it or not. If she can meet the same common standards as the men and do the job just as well...too bad for you and your chauvinistic attitude. I don't care whether the soldier next to me is orange, green, black, white, male, female, gay or straight, as long as they happen to posses the soldiering skills required to get the job done. I'd rather have an excellent soldier who is female next to me than a shitty soldier who is male any day of the week.

the relative numbers within a cbt unit is minimal meaning that women generally are not interested in cbt jobs.

Or that they can not meet the standard. Which is fine by me because the boys who can not meet the standard are not supposed to be there either.

So it brings things back around to whether or not they should be allowed to serve in a cbt unit in the first place. Leave you liberal brain in the gutter for a moment and ask yourself if it makes sense to change the living arrangements for 1 person?

You'd do this for me? That must be YOUR problem you see. I never had any living arrangements made for me out in the field. Shared my hooch with a man and I can get dressed in my sleeping bag just as good as the boys can. In the odd instance where this occurred out of the bag...it was no biggie to me or to them. It's called professionalism, you should go get issued some somewhere.

or to have special considerations for one person while deployed just because it is that time of the month?

You are indeed right out of er. We do not need special considerations 'just because it's that time of the month' where do you manage to come up with such an asinine remark? I have never been accommodated due to my period nor have I ever met a single female who has been....perhaps your biased chauvinism is truly showing through when you need to resort to an absolutely falsehood such as this to try to back up your point.

It is all a question of numbers and is it worth it on those numbers. Based on the numbers it isn't worth it and regardless of what some women think, they don't speak for all women, first bunch of Canadian girls to die (in Cbt units) and they'll find out real quick what a democracy wants regardless of what they think or feel on the matter.

Actually numbers are proving that many women either don't want to pursue those first line roles, or that they are not capable of meeting the standards required to fill those first line roles. Less than .075 percent of first line roles are occupied by females, while the general average throughout the CF is 14%. Why does this upset you? After all, having a female beside you in the trench doesn't cost the taxpayer a single penny more than it costs to have you there. She gets the exact same kit, and humps her own ruck. So don't pull the old it costs more BS out of the bag either. She eats, sleeps, drinks and humps the same as you. It ain't costing anybody any more money to accomplish that. Your argument is moot. And, regardless of what you think, no-one on here has claimed that some women think they speak for all women, apparently you presume to speak for those of us with a different attitude than your very own sorely outdated one. By the way, I am not a liberal. Just so we clear that up right away.
If and when a female soldier dies in combat, it will truly be a sad day for this nation, but I doubt that a change will occur in the current situation. After all, in her honour, she has died in battle whilst serving her country amongst her fellow soldiers doing something she believed in. A risk she was willing to accept in order to accomplish the mission, and you presume that the average citizen would destroy her honourable death by advocating a change to the system because you couldn't handle that fact? And yes, I presume that you are amongst those who couldn't handle that fact as you are obviously having a hard time with the reality that there are females currently serving in the PPCLI who are getting the job done, and in a couple of cases, better than some of the men amongst whom they serve.
I will fight any move to do this very loudly and very vocally every step of the way, she earned that right, just like the man who died beside her.

 

[armyvern]

Have you seen anything to indicate the opposite - maybe with the CSS camps, but then it's not an issue of combat arms, is it?

Infanteer, I can assure you that no special arrangements are made on the CSS side of the house while I've been deployed or in the field either.

 

[armyvern]

CSS camps or any overseas camp does facilitate women, as for Cbt Arms it does effect them in the sense that insead of women being included in there respective Section/Pl/or Coy for that matter, women are for the most part segregated together with little thought towards their desire to maintain Unit integrity. As you know Cbt Units as a whole require that integrity to a great deal as team building and that closeness often reflects on the battlefield.

Well, if the need 10 shacks for the number of personnel filling posns, and they have enough females to fill one of the shacks, then they are seperate. It hasn't cost an extra dime, because if those posns were filled by males, they'd still need 10 shacks.

By the way, I'm in a CSS role. Out of all my deployments, only once have I been housed in a strictly female quarters (again because there were enough females that roto to fill up 1 shack out of 9) but even then, it was only for the 1st half of the tour. Upon the 3 month roto which had fewer females, our empty rooms filled up with guys, and they too got their 10 minutes set aside for their showers. It works both ways.

 

[Infanteer]

Infanteer, I can assure you that no special arrangements are made on the CSS side of the house while I've been deployed or in the field either.

My experience was that CSS contingents usually had a higher number of females so seperate living stations and bathrooms were arranged for the them (this is what I saw at Camp BlackBear, if I recall correctly).  But since females are a larger proportion of the service trades and since we talking about the Combat Arms, I don't think it was an issue (which was 1 or 2 in a combat arms position).

If and when a female soldier dies in combat, it will truley be a sad day for this nation, but I doubt that a change will occur in the current situation.

They have been dying in Iraq and I haven't seen a huge fallout in the States; 49 women have died in Iraq, and note that most of them were due to hostile acts.  So you're absolutely correct armyvern - as usual, good post.  

Folks, let's not have this thread be about "men vs women" - it'll get locked like the last 500.

As far as the CF is concerned, there is only one criteria - you can see it below.  It seems to me that if you can do that, then you're good to go in the Combat Arms.  Unfortunately, many aspects of the CF don't serve to ensure that the standards approach this criteria - how do we fix this?

 

[Unknown Factor]

armyvern; the beautiful thing about a democracy is not the ability to speak but to look at both sides of an arguement before you speak.  I am not a chauvanist by any stretch of the imagination.  I will work with anyone any time and I'm sorry that you were unable to go back a couple of pages to read my other posts.  realistically you have to look at every side of this topic in order to support an opinion. That is a debate. But regardless search for your own truth, 'One Standard, One Army' I could give less who you are.  As for males not reaching the standard... I agree.

 

[ZipperHead]

I have only seen "segregation" in regards to showering (but not completely... I will get back to this in a minute....) and toilets (mostly).

Women bunk with men on course (in the field shacks), and sleep in the same tents. I'm sure most women have seen more bare, hairy, pimply asses by now than they ever care to, and most guys have got used to changing with women around. It becomes more or less a non-issue. There are some prudes to be sure: I was a DS on a course and went to take a leak behind a LAVIII, and checked my back-blast area, and noticed there was a female student in the back of the LAV. I took a few "courtesy" steps further into the woods, and she called out "I can  still see you!!!" I told her to "turn your head, and look away then!!! You'll have to lose that modesty before you get overseas and have to take a dump on the verge of the road with cars passing by, because you can't walk into the woods because of the mines!!" This was an officer, and I don't think she liked my tone, but tough sh!t...

As for showering, I showered in a Dutch camp in Bosnia, and we were all aflutter at the thought of the infamous co-ed showers. Well, if they are all like the one we used, there is no big deal. You have your own stall, and you never see any of the other person, other than when they enter/exit (fully clothed usually). Unless you put your face down to floor level to look into the other stall (there is about a 2 inch gap to allow water to flow through), but you would probably end up with a toe in the eye for your troubles. I think by now, everybody has inadvertently seen a member of the opposite sex naked in the field to some degree. I don't think that it's nearly as big of a deal as most people make it, except for wive's (and husbands, I suppose) who hear that their spouse is sleeping 6 inches from that hot young thing they saw at the unit Xmas party..... who is snoring, burping and farting in their sleep just as much as the Tp WO..... sexxxxxxxxy :-X

I don't know if our N American puritanical ways will ever allow a co-ed shower like witnessed in Star-Ship Troopers, and I have heard via rumournet (with more than a few reliable sources) a case of a woman hopping into a gang shower full of men because she didn't want to wait until it was the "girls" turn, and all the hot water was gone. It was a completely non-arousing occurence apparently, as this particular female didn't exactly give Pam Anderson a run for the money, and I think the guys were probably embarassed more than they would care to admit.... imagine if a guy did likewise in a woman's shower!!!! They wouldn't be able to build a pole high enough to hang him from.....

I think that it had taken a while, but most people have adjusted (more or less) to having to work around members of the opposite sex, as long as everyone is adult about it (not walking around with Johnson's exposed for shock value (face it.... most guys are uncomfortable seeing another guy walking around uncovered, let alone a woman having to deal with it) or a rack unsheathed willy-nilly.)

As for toilets, I hate it when they "segregate" Blue-rockets and the like by gender. If there is only one person in there at a time, there is no requirement to allocate them by gender. I understand there is a requirement for allocating them for cooks, medics, etc due to hygiene reasons (though even that is flimsy to some degree..... I doubt my urine or fecal matter is any less unhygenic than a cooks, medics, etc.... and yes, I know how to wash my hands, and/or use hand sanitizer..... hopefully all the cooks do  :-X ). I hate seeing 30+ guys waiting for the use of 3 Blue rockets, and the one female has exclusive use of her own personal commode.... no wonder there becomes an us/them mentality. My wife has a fairly gross story about having to use Blue rockets in Haiti in '95, and the "remnants" of some guys "holo-deck" experience were covering the walls.... yes, that is disgusting, but I know that some women can be equally disgusting.

Anyway, it's the ablution/toilet/nekkid-ness issues that people always trot out as reasons why we shouldn't mix the sexes, but I think if people can be mature about it, give a little privacy when required, and put up with what are usually only minor inconveniences, I think that the world won't end.

Al

 

[George Wallace]

I don't know if our N American puritanical ways will ever allow a co-ed shower like witnessed in Star-Ship Troopers, and I have heard via rumournet (with more than a few reliable sources) a case of a woman hopping into a gang shower full of men because she didn't want to wait until it was the "girls" turn, and all the hot water was gone. It was a completely non-arousing occurence apparently, as this particular female didn't exactly give Pam Anderson a run for the money, and I think the guys were probably embarassed more than they would care to admit.... imagine if a guy did likewise in a woman's shower!!!! They wouldn't be able to build a pole high enough to hang him from.....

Al

I think I will have to agree with you 100% on this.....it is a Time Thing.   As Time passes we will see more 'integration' and less prudish behavior.   There still are many, of all ages, who have puritanical beliefs when it comes to genders in various circumstances.   The problems are getting fewer and fewer.   When Unknown C/S and I remember the extra administration, it was Pre-Blue Rocket Days.   Then we had to dig ablution trenches and fence them in with Hessian.   Separate Latrines and ablution areas for everyone.   Actors in the movies had to keep one foot on the floor, in all the bedroom scenes.   Although Times have gradually changed, we still need time to 'adapt' further to have everyone truly think of each other as equals gender wise.

 

[Unknown Factor]

As far as the CF is concerned, there is only one criteria - you can see it below.  It seems to me that if you can do that, then you're good to go in the Combat Arms.  Unfortunately, many aspects of the CF don't serve to ensure that the standards approach this criteria - how do we fix this?

Speaking from and operational and training stand point, the problem looks to be that the CF has an 'enterance standard' whereas the Cbt Arms has an 'operational standard'.  No one seems to realize that once the soldier reaches their parent unit, it is that parent units responsibility to 'train' the soldier to achieve the operational requirements.  Without recognizing that, many will continue to believe that enterance standards are operational standards and that if someone can complete the BFT they are fit.  Where as enforcing a fitness standard at trade schools for specific requirements of that trade, rather than trying to - but being handcuffed because of the enterance requirement, would work a long way to improve fitness levels at unit level.

Enterance requirements are just that, to gain enterance into the CF or Trade, it should not be the soldiers peak level of fitness for their terms of service. Realistically it should be the base for which their level of training starts and progresses from so that when they leave basic they are at respectable level of fitness so that reaching operational readiness is not unobtainable at unit level.  Additionally with realistic fitness standards - required to pass to the next evolution in their training - they have to be enforced and soldier given a set number of chances to reach that standard.  If they reache it they move on, if not trade re-assignment.

 

[Gunner]

I hate it when they "segregate" Blue-rockets and the like by gender. If there is only one person in there at a time, there is no requirement to allocate them by gender. I understand there is a requirement for allocating them for cooks, medics, etc due to hygiene reasons (though even that is flimsy to some degree..... I doubt my urine or fecal matter is any less unhygenic than a cooks, medics, etc.... and yes, I know how to wash my hands, and/or use hand sanitizer..... hopefully all the cooks do  ).

I can't remember if I have ever seen segregated blue rockets. 

 

[buzgo]

I have seen segregated rockets and its ridiculous. There are a lot of females in the sigop trade, so I think that we have more integration experience/issues - there always seems to be 'militant' women that put 'female only' signs on the rockets, and then other women who are pissed at them and rip them down... this carries over to everything else. I've seen women with french manicures trying not to break nails while setting up camnets and I've seen other women hauling jerrycans for hours at a time with a smile on their face.

Its the same with guys too, there are always bad apples.

 

[paracowboy]

Julien was entirely segregated by gender. As were Zgon, Drvar, Tomislavgrad, Glamoc, Valika Kladusa. On my deployments.
Others report differently. Perhaps it simply depended on the maturity level of the troops in question, and the trust their superiors had in them?

 

[brin11]

Here's a short story regarding the blue rockets from a few years ago. 

A new private (female type) came up to me during the day and proceeded to state that she thought we should lay claim on one of the rockets a bit of a distance away as the female rocket.  I proceeded to ask her for a count of people in the biv (which was approx. 50).  I then asked her for a count of females in the biv (there were three).  I then asked her why she felt 3 people deserved their own rocket for their exclusive use.  She got the point quickly and I'm pretty sure she'll pass the sentiments on to the next bunch in.  There are some out there that feel they deserve special privileges but I haven't met very many of them.  As for sleeping arrangements, I've always slept with the guys and have fought for the privilege to do so as I think its only right to not divide your section.  What a stupid idea and an easy way to increase the size of the gender divide. 

 

[Armymedic]

As a leader in a unit which has approx 45% women, I feel that there are two factors which determine whether or not you should have separate facilities:

1. time in location, and
2. facilities avail.

Sleeping areas need not be segregated if you have washroom and showering facilities that are segregated. But on lengthy deployments it is preferable to have them segregated as well.

BTW the only troops "entitled" a separate rocket for hygiene reasons in the field are cooks (that also goes for showers and clothes washing). Do you want to force your cook to use the diarrhea filled rocket right before he dishes out your dinner?

Let me rephrase entitled to "that MUST have".

 

[armyvern]

Here's a short story regarding the blue rockets from a few years ago.  

A new private (female type) came up to me during the day and proceeded to state that she thought we should lay claim on one of the rockets a bit of a distance away as the female rocket.   ... She got the point quickly and I'm pretty sure she'll pass the sentiments on to the next bunch in.  

Brin11, I hope you sorted the newbie out!! I gotta tell you, I am sitting here thinking about this, and I can come up with zero legitimate reasons/needs for rocket segregation to occur. This practise must cease !!

Edited to add: "As long as the boys remember to lift the seats"...  

 

[brin11]

Brin11, I hope you sorted the newbie out!! I gotta tell you, I am sitting here thinking about this, and I can come up with zero legitimate reasons/needs for rocket segregation to occur. This practise must cease !!

armyvern,  of course I did.  See the "I'm pretty sure she'll pass the sentiments on......". 

As for the cook's rocket, is it not diarrhea filled as well?  Or are they eating something different from the rest of the troopies??

 

[armywoman]

If that is not based in sarcasm, then:

Are you proud you were able to achieve the minimum fitness standard in the Army?

It was not sarcasm.  And yes..I was proud to pass A fitness test period.  I would like to say that I worked my fat a$$ off, but sadly I look behind me and it is still there. 
Next on my agenda is quickening my pace, and shortening the time it took me to do it.

Going back to the current conversation
I have been on exercises where I was with 30 guys and I am the only female.  We slept in the same tent, no dividers.  Same blue rockets.  It worked out fine, as far as I and my coworkers were concerned.

When I did my basic my bunk mate was a 17 year old male.  Welcome to the army!  Now that was a challenge, getting dressed when the person you share your small space with is the opposite sex.  Luckily he was an awesome kid and dealt with it like a professional.  There may have been times when trying to put my panties on under my towel was difficult,and there was a few incidents where I lost the grip on my towel.
but I hear he has not suffered any permanent damage.
I dealt with it.  That is because I knew what I was getting into when I joined.  Having grown up a base brat.  Unfortunately not all females have the same mind set.  It all comes down to professionalism and teamwork.  If someone was not comfortable with changing in the same room as guys, or girls for that matter concessions can be made.  As much as we would all like a perfect little army world where we don't have to make pretty signs to distinguish the toilet from the toilette, we don't.  We have to make the best of it we can.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I crew commanded an AVLB for a few years.  I had a female driver/operator for about a year.  After some initial apprehension on my part (she was much younger than me, and armoured engineer crews live in close quarters) she worked out fine.  there were a few times on combat team attacks when she would jump off the vehicle, run around back, and take a (relatively) quick leak.  I asked her if it bothered her to do that, her reply; "If all these guys out here have nothing better to do than watch me pee, then rock on."  Cracked me up then, still does now.

 

[armyvern]

there were a few times on combat team attacks when she would jump off the vehicle, run around back, and take a (relatively) quick leak.  

Yeah..it does take us a couple extra seconds to get into firing posn for this!!  ;D

I asked her if it bothered her to do that, her reply; "If all these guys out here have nothing better to do than watch me pee, then rock on."   Cracked me up then, still does now.

Good on her.
And good for you too!!