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Fighting is for men

Should women be allowed to stay in the combat arms?

  • Yes

    Votes: 63 78.8%
  • No

    Votes: 17 21.3%

  • Total voters
    80
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1) So there's a woman in the combat arms, she goes out for her patrol...gets involved in alittle action, ends up being taken prisoner. Hypothetically, her captors rape her.

2) She's hit in combat near the chest area; surviving the hit, a medic would need to expose the area. Do you see where i'm getting at?
That'slife I think he was referring to your posts. What the heck are you talking about because I think he got them exact same impression from yours that I did.
1) Well that's one of the risks that the girls performing this job take. Not that it's never happened to a man before?? Get real. And yeah, she could get raped and become pregnant; also a risk. We girls know this, and some are willing to take that risk by serving in a front line unit. Good for them, it's got nothing to do with you and your comment here does not do anything to dis-suade, it is irrelevant to soldiering abilities.
2) Yeah so my boobs are showing?? Whipety crap. If I'm injured, the last thing I care about is my chest being exposed. Again, get a grip. Apparently KevinB will also be too busy performing 1st aid as well to take notice.

As a side note, we women expose more than boobs bearing children, so do you really think that an exposed set of boobs on an injured female in an operational setting makes a difference to us? I think not, apparently it may to you though, after all, you brought it up. Let's keep this discussion real shall we?

It's all about the lack of a proper common standard which must be met by all. It's not about who's torture will be worse at the hands of the enemy, after all, the psychological effects of this on either sex would last forever. Back to reality.
 
I was asking those two questions out of mere curiousity, not to gain advantage over a topic regarding women serving in the combat arms. It wasn't meant to offend anyone, nor was it intended to be related to taking advantage of wounded soldiers, but obviously people misinterpreted it and it became offensive and therefore, i'm sorry.

 
Out of curiousity, what are the number of females in the Reg infantry?

I was involved in putting through one of the first mixed platoons in battle school. In all, it took dozens of female candidates before one finally passed. If I had one cent for every hour spent discussing the topic at the time, I'd have been a rich man. Eventually, although we all thought the sky was falling, in the end, she ended up in transport platoon and left the infantry shortly thereafter. Essentially, a non-issue, however, alot of grief at the time, a lot of recources wasted, a number of careers effected, all to prove a point I guess.

Later, in a different battalion, there were no women infantryman, except, I think, some reservists that were attatched for a short period.

Have things changed that much?     
 
You know I almost loath to say this but out of the 4 woman I have seen or worked with in the Infantry it was only the 2 female officers that I had anytime for, they were fit, knew their jod and in one case in particular was at one time the OC Pioneer PL and is commonly referred to as probably the best Pl Comdr they had seen in a long time.

At the NCM Level lets just say I'm less then impressed with the quality of soldier like skills I have seen from them (woman). Everything from crying during a section attack because it was "too far" to getting on the man eating truck at every opportunity that presented itself.

My curiosity compels me to ask why is it the the Officers were so much better examples of what woman in a cbt arms  trade could be then at the NCM level.... training at RMC and during the phase process, or that it seems at the NCM lvl the pressure to produce the first cbt arms (reg) Sgt or WO or just generally bending of the standards to push as many woman into the the Bn's to achieve some sort of sexual parity?
 
As much as this pains me to admit it (everyone knows that I hate officers, women, and reservists, not neccesarily in that order  :-* ), officers in general seem to have more determination and drive as to what they want to be (notice that I said "in general".... I have seen more than a few that were, well to be polite, let's say "rudderless"). And I think that ANYBODY who is trying to break into a non-traditional field, especially one as politically-charged as being a female combat arms officer, is going to want to "WANT it". So with that desire to succeed, and a more than likely above average capability (i.e they trained hard prior to ever starting their "official" training), they were able to succeed. And to be honest, when I go to the gym (here and Edmonton, and I'm sure it's the same elsewhere), I notice that a very high proportion of the female officers (from the base) are in there on a regular basis, more so than female NCM's, and even male officers, so that says something (and officers, if you wonder how I can spot you from the unwashed masses (in civvies and PT gear), I can't tell you.... it's a trade secret).

People who are run of the mill and wishy-washy about what they want are set up for failure, no matter who they are, and what they are attempting to do. The fact that so many people who join the CF that are wishy-washy, don't take the time to prepare themselves mentally, emotionally and physically, and still gain entrance makes me sad. You should have "WANT it", and want it bad to get in, barriers be damned. I think we need to have barriers in place to stop the Walter Mitty types (young 'uns, this might involve a bit of reading to understand what I mean... think "poser" and you get the idea) from joining and then thinking "This wasn't so hard.... I don't know what the big whoop was???!!?" It IS hard to fight wars (not that I actually know this from personal experience, but I have been around enough to know that the training should simulate the experience... alas it has been reduced in standard as well), so we need people capable of fighting (ALL trades, all religions, all genders, all heights, all colours, etc).

Al
 
Infanteer said:
Isn't paternity leave provided to CF members?   I believe it is, but somebody can clear this one up.   So if we allow women to take time off for parenting needs and we allow men to take time off for parenting needs, then what is the use of comparing it to the issue of rucking and charging an MG nest?


They are two separate issues, Muskrat98 is not suggesting that pregnant CF Female members are subjected or would be required to be put in harmsway.

But the examples he suggests might be difficult or out of character or/and not as attainable to the conclusion in general by a Female Soldier.

Cheers.
 
FastEddy said:
But the examples he suggests might be difficult or out of character or/and not as attainable to the conclusion in general by a Female Soldier.

The issue being discussed was parental leave.
 
I'm kind of torn on the article... agreeing and disagreeing all over the place. One point I think she hit, BANG ON, is the emasculation of our society. Feminists have successfully murdered the representation and accomodation of the male pscyhe and masculine value system in our institutions and society at large. Boys aren't just "being boys" any more, now they have ADD or are "delinquent". The system of education is at odds with the character of young males and makes no attempt at accomodation. This isn't surprising when you take into account the fact that the education system is dominated by women. Accordingly, we're seeing boys doing worse and worse in school. I can't imagine an education system which deals realistically with young males having zero-tolerance policies on violence. Boys will fight, that's what they do, but because our education system is female-dominated and female-focused, we're expelling and suspending boys for schoolyard fights, thus damaging their educational prospects and alienating them.

No surprise that the military's been such a favourite target for the dim-witted feminists out there. After all, it embodies so much of the masculine value base that it was just too male to leave alone. Next we'll start teaching our soldiers the finer points of slapping and hair-pulling, along with classes on "how to listen sensitively to your panzy trenchmate whine about his cramps and feelings of inadequacy" or perhaps a course on "how to over-react to anything and everything you find offensive".

And what's driving it all? Misandry. Many have never heard the word, it's no surprise - feminists would have us believe there's no such thing when a good chunk of their policies and opinions revolve around it. As someone said once, it's the only form of bigotry considered "politically correct".
 
Infanteer said:
The issue being discussed was parental leave.


Yes, the general discussion was revolving around Parental Leave, but Muskrat89's issue was he took issue with the CF's being compared to any other employer.

His suggestion of Circumstances and Hazards which are certainally not prevalent for other employers was his point and I presumed he was still on topic "Fighting is for men"
 
Glorified Ape said:
along with classes on "how to listen sensitively to your panzy trenchmate whine about his cramps and feelings of inadequacy" or perhaps a course on "how to over-react to anything and everything you find offensive".

Haven't you had your SHARP classes yet?
 
As well, I remembered something that may have relevence to this thread.   Note that being in the Combat Arms presents a gamut of other issues, but I think this addresses Ms Kay's notion that "Fighting is for Men":

For the Record: MPs Outgunned but Win
Editor's Note: This is an After Action Report on the combat incident on March 20, 2005 near Salman Pak, Iraq, between a squad of ten soldiers from the 617th Military Police Co. (Kentucky Army National Guard) assigned to the 18th MP Brigade, and a group of between 40-50 armed Iraqi fighters. The report was written by the brigade intelligence officer. Names of the troops involve have been deleted, and the text has been slightly edited for clarity.
AFTER ACTION REPORT: Raven 42 Action in Salman Pak

Over the next few days you will see on the television news shows, and in the print news media the story of a Military Police squad who are heroes. Through those outlets, I doubt that their story will get out in a truly descriptive manner. I can't express to you the pride, awe, and respect I feel for the soldiers of call sign Raven 42.

On Sunday afternoon, in a very bad section of scrub-land called Salman Pak, on the southeastern outskirts of Baghdad, 40 to 50 heavily-armed Iraqi insurgents attacked a convoy of 30 civilian tractor-trailer trucks that were moving supplies for the coalition forces, along an Alternate Supply Route [ASR]. These tractor-trailers, driven by third country nationals (primarily Turkish), were escorted by three armored Hummers from the COSCOM [Corps Support Command]. When the insurgents attacked, one of the Hummers was in their kill zone and the three soldiers aboard were immediately wounded, and the platform taken under heavy machine gun and RPG [rocket-propelled grenade] fire.

Along with them, three of the truck drivers were killed, six were wounded in the tractor-trailer trucks. The enemy attacked from a farmer's barren field next to the road, with a treeline perpendicular to the ASR, two dry irrigation ditches forming a rough L-shaped trenchline, and a house standing off the dirt road. After three minutes of sustained fire, a squad of enemy moved forward toward the disabled and suppressed trucks. Each of the enemy had handcuffs and were looking to take hostages for ransom or worse, to take those three wounded U.S. soldiers for more internet beheadings.

About this time, three armored Hummers that formed the MP Squad under callsign Raven 42, 617th MP Co., Kentucky National Guard, assigned to the 503rd MP Battalion (Fort Bragg), 18th MP Brigade, arrived on the scene like the cavalry. The squad had been shadowing the convoy from a distance behind the last vehicle, and when the convoy trucks stopped and became backed up from the initial attack, the squad sped up, paralleled the convoy up the shoulder of the road, and moved to the sound of gunfire.

They arrived on the scene just as a squad of about ten enemy had moved forward across the farmer's field and were about 20 meters from the road. The MP squad opened fire with .50 cal machine guns and Mark 19 grenade launchers and drove across the front of the enemy's kill zone, between the enemy and the trucks, drawing fire off of the tractor-trailers. The MPs crossed the kill zone and then turned up an access road at a right angle to the ASR and next to the field full of enemy fighters. The three vehicles, carrying nine MPs and one medic, stopped in a line on the dirt access road and flanked the enemy positions with plunging fire from the .50 cal and the [m-249] SAW machine gun (Squad Automatic Weapon). In front of them, was a line of seven sedans, with all their doors and trunk lids open, the getaway cars and the lone two-story house off on their left.

Immediately, the middle vehicle was hit by an RPG knocking the gunner unconscious from his turret and down into the vehicle. The Vehicle Commander ... , the squad's leader, thought the gunner was dead, but tried to treat him from inside the vehicle. Simultaneously, the rear vehicle's driver and TC, section leader two, open their doors and dismount to fight, while their gunner continued firing from his position in the gun platform on top of the Hummer.

Immediately, all three fall under heavy return machine gun fire, wounded. The driver of the middle vehicle saw them fall out the rearview mirror, dismounts and sprints to get into the third vehicle and take up the SAW on top the vehicle. The squad's medic dismounts from that third vehicle, and joined by the first vehicle's driver (CLS trained [combat lifesaving] who sprinted back to join him, begins combat life-saving techniques to treat the three wounded MPs.

The gunner on the floor of the second vehicle is revived by his TC, the squad leader, and he climbs back into the .50 cal and opens fire. The squad leader dismounted with his M4 carbine, and two hand grenades, grabbed the section leader out of the first vehicle who had rendered radio reports of their first contact. The two of them, squad leader staff sergeant and team leader sergeant with her M-4 and M-203 grenade launcher, rush the nearest ditch about 20 meters away to start clearing the natural trenchline. The enemy has gone into the ditches and is hiding behind several small trees in the back of the lot. The .50 cal and SAW flanking fire tears apart the ten enemy in the lead trenchline.

Meanwhile, the two treating the three wounded on the ground at the rear vehicle come under sniper fire from the farmer's house. Each of them, remember one is a medic, pull out AT-4 rocket launchers from the HMMWV and nearly-simultaneously fire the rockets into the house to neutralize the shooter. The two sergeants work their way up the trenchline, throwing grenades, firing grenades from the launcher, and firing their M-4s.

The sergeant runs low on ammo and runs back to a vehicle to reload. She moves to her squad leader's vehicle, and because this squad is led so well, she knows exactly where to reach her arm blindly into a different vehicle to find ammo-because each vehicle is packed exactly the same, with discipline.

As she turns to move back to the trenchline, Gunner in two sees an [Iraqi fighter] jump from behind one of the cars and start firing on the sergeant. He pulls his 9-mm, because the .50 cal is pointed in the other direction, and shoots five rounds, wounding him. The sergeant moves back to the trenchline under fire from the back of the field, with fresh mags, two more grenades, and three more M-203 rounds. The Mark 19 gunner suppresses the rear of the field.

Now, rejoined with the squad leader, the two sergeants continue clearing the enemy from the trenchline, until they see no more movement. A lone man with an RPG launcher on his shoulder steps from behind a tree and prepares to fire on the three Hummers and is killed with a single aimed SAW shot through the head by the previously knocked-out gunner on platform two, who now has a SAW out to supplement the .50 cal in the mount. The team leader sergeant â “ she claims four killed by aimed M-4 shots. The squad leader â “ he threw four grenades taking out at least two [Iraqis] and attributes one other to her aimed M-203 fire.

The gunner on platform two, previously knocked out from a hit by the RPG, has now swung his .50 cal around and, realizing that the line of vehicles represents a hazard and possible getaway for the bad guys, starts shooting the .50 cal into the engine blocks until his field of fire is limited. He realizes that his vehicle is still running despite the RPG hit, and drops down from his weapon, into the driver's seat and moves the vehicle forward on two flat tires about 100 meters into a better firing position. Just then, the vehicle dies, oil spraying everywhere.

He remounts his .50 cal and continues shooting the remaining of the seven cars lined up and ready for a get-away that wasn't to happen. The fire dies down about then, and a second squad arrives on the scene, dismounts and helps the two giving first aid to the wounded at platform three. Two minutes later three other squads from the 617th arrive, along with the CO, and the field is secured, [and] consolidation begins.

Those seven Americans (with the three wounded) killed in total 24 heavily armed enemy, wounded six (two later died), and captured one unwounded, who feigned injury to escape the fight. They seized 22 AK-47s, six RPG launchers with 16 rockets, 13 RPK machine guns, 3 PKM machine guns, 40 hand grenades, 123 fully loaded 30-round AK magazines, 52 empty mags, and 10 belts of 2500 rounds of PK ammo.

The three wounded MPs have been evacuated to Landstuhl. One lost a kidney and will be paralyzed. The other two will most likely recover, though one will forever have a bullet lodged between second and third ribs below his heart. No word on the three COSCOM soldiers wounded in the initial volleys. Of the seven members of Raven 42 who walked away, two are Caucasian women, the rest men â “ one is Mexican-American, the medic is African-American, and the other two are Caucasian -the great American melting pot.
They believed even before this fight that their NCOs were the best in the Army, and that they have the best squad in the Army. The medic who fired the AT-4, said he remembered how from the week before when his squad leader forced him to train on it, though he didn't think as a medic he would ever use one. He said he chose to use it in that moment to protect the three wounded on the ground in front of him, once they came under fire from the building.

The day before this mission, they took the new RFI bandoliers that were recently issued, and experimented with mounting them in their vehicles. Once they figured out how, they pre-loaded a second basic load of ammo into magazines, put them into the bandoliers, and mounted them in their vehicles â “ the same exact way in every vehicle-load plans enforced and checked by leaders!

Leadership under fire â “ Once those three leaders (NCOs) stepped out of their vehicles, the squad was committed to the fight.

Their only complaints in the AAR were: the lack of stopping power in the 9-mm; the .50 cal incendiary rounds they are issued in lieu of ball ammo (shortage of ball in the inventory) didn't have the penetrating power needed to pierce the walls of the building; and that everyone in the squad was not CLS trained.

Yesterday {Monday, March 28, 2005] was spent with the chaplain and the chain of command conducting AARs. Today, every news media in theater wanted them. â Å“Good Morning America, NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC, Stars & Stripes, and many radio stations from Kentucky all were lined up today. The female E-5 sergeant who fought through the trenchline will become the anti-Jessica Lynch media poster child. She and her squad leader deserve every bit of recognition they will get, and more. They all do.

I participated in their AAR as the BDE S2, and am helping in putting together an action report to justify future valor awards. Let's not talk about women in combat. Let's not talk about the new Close Combat Badge not including MPs. Footnote: The 9-mm round was a terrible decision for the Army to make. The 9-mm pistol replaced the .45 caliber pistol just as I was leaving the Army. Believe me, one round from a .45 would have done more than wound the enemy soldier. Special Forces, Seals, Rangers, etc, and all those who engage in CQB (Close Quarters Battle) are being issued or buying their own .45s. There is an old adage: â Å“Never go to a gun fight with a handgun that uses ammo that doesn't start with a '4'.

Note this is not a â Å“defense against attack. Nor a true meeting engagement, the [Iraqi] forces were carrying out an ambush from prepared positions. This is an assault on a prepared position carried out by a numerically overwhelmed but superbly trained force. In hard numbers the [Iraqi fighters] even had the advantage in weight of firepower. The casualty ratio and casualty severity ratio are incredibly disproportionate.

www.sftt.org

Note: this female E5 won the Silver Star for conduct under fire - that is the third highest award for bravery awarded in the US Army.
 
armywoman said:
On a 'unrelated note"  I passed my BFT.  Yay..go me!

If that is not based in sarcasm, then:

Are you proud you were able to achieve the minimum fitness standard in the Army?

 
Note: this female E5 won the Silver Star for conduct under fire - that is the third highest award for bravery awarded in the US Army.

Based on the report, I definitely think that citations are meritted for the E5. Of course their will be political statements made based on her gender, as though that is the issue. The issues that should be highlighted before gender should be: gallantry, training, and leadership. No need to mention races, genders, sexual orientations, age, political affiliations, astrological symbols, etc.

Well done her, and the rest of the MP squad!! Now if we could our MP's to be like that.... \

Al
 
I don't think this has anything to do with whether or not a woman can do a man's job, the relative numbers within a cbt unit is minimal meaning that women generally are not interested in cbt jobs. So it brings things back around to whether or not they should be alowed to serve in a cbt unit in the first place.  Leave you lilberal brain in the gutter for a moment and ask yourself if it makes sense to change the living arrangements for 1 person? or to have special considerations for one person while deployed just because it is that time of the month?  It is all a question of numbers and is it worth it on those numbers. Based on the numbers it isn't worth it and regardless of what some women think, they don't speak for all women, first buch of Canadian girls to die (in Cbt units) and they'll find out real quick what a democracy wants regardless of what they think or feel on the matter.
 
Unknown Factor said:
I don't think this has anything to do with whether or not a woman can do a man's job, the relative numbers within a cbt unit is minimal meaning that women generally are not interested in cbt jobs. So it brings things back around to whether or not they should be alowed to serve in a cbt unit in the first place.   Leave you lilberal brain in the gutter for a moment and ask yourself if it makes sense to change the living arrangements for 1 person? or to have special considerations for one person while deployed just because it is that time of the month?   It is all a question of numbers and is it worth it on those numbers. Based on the numbers it isn't worth it and regardless of what some women think, they don't speak for all women, first buch of Canadian girls to die (in Cbt units) and they'll find out real quick what a democracy wants regardless of what they think or feel on the matter.

Interesting point to raise but when I joined, worked-up, deployed and what not, I didn't notice any change in living arrangements that were built around the two females in the company (a clerk and a 031).  Washrooms were shared, living quarters were common, etc, etc.  The only real allowance was that the females could throw a "women" sign on in the shower for 10 minutes giving them access to one of the shower rooms - since a real operating environment wouldn't have showers, I just considered that the price of a luxury.

Have you seen anything to indicate the opposite - maybe with the CSS camps, but then it's not an issue of combat arms, is it?
 
Unknown Factor said:
I don't think this has anything to do with whether or not a woman can do a man's job, the relative numbers within a cbt unit is minimal meaning that women generally are not interested in cbt jobs. So it brings things back around to whether or not they should be alowed to serve in a cbt unit in the first place.   Leave you lilberal brain in the gutter for a moment and ask yourself if it makes sense to change the living arrangements for 1 person? or to have special considerations for one person while deployed just because it is that time of the month?   It is all a question of numbers and is it worth it on those numbers. Based on the numbers it isn't worth it and regardless of what some women think, they don't speak for all women, first buch of Canadian girls to die (in Cbt units) and they'll find out real quick what a democracy wants regardless of what they think or feel on the matter.

I haven't really looked at it in a 'gender' way, but more as an extra administrative burden in the field or on Ops, much in the same light as Unknown C/S has put it.  Twice the ablution areas to be produced, maintained and secured.  In our North American society, that is the way we are still looking at things.  In many European Armies, where the sexes are more integrated into the Units, Topless or completely naked bodies are more common place in communal showers and ablution areas.  We are a bit more prudish and that causes extra tensions needlessly.  Once our society changes we may see quite a difference, one way or the other.  The pendulum may swing the complete opposite direction too.
 
As I said before, my experience with deploying with females was common shitters and showers; the females got to squeeze 10 minutes out of one of the shower trailors - I'd be powering down the morning wood into the urinal and a girl would walk by to brush her teeth.   Since I'm not interested in chasing her tail (1. I don't like to crap where I eat; 2. It is illegal as there was an order against it; 3. My GF was hotter anyways), I didn't mind the fact that I let out a big fart at that moment either....

Is this not common practice; at least for Combat Arms areas?
 
Infanteer said:
Interesting point to raise but when I joined, worked-up, deployed and what not, I didn't notice any change in living arrangements that were built around the two females in the company (a clerk and a 031).   Washrooms were shared, living quarters were common, etc, etc.

I would have to say that they have changed, the initial arrangements were mostly neccesarry because the existing infastructure did not facilitate women.  

Infanteer said:
Have you seen anything to indicate the opposite - maybe with the CSS camps, but then it's not an issue of combat arms, is it?

CSS camps or any overseas camp does facilitate women, as for Cbt Arms it does effect them in the sense that insead of women being included in there respective Section/Pl/or Coy for that matter, women are for the most part segregated together with little thought towards their desire to maintain Unit integrity. As you know Cbt Units as a whole require that integrity to a great deal as team building and that closeness often reflects on the battlefield.
 
Hmm...I must say that was never my experience; perhaps it was because we were in   a Coy(-) camp.  As you said, the number of females is quite small - how much infrastructure do you really need to support 1 or 2 ladies?  A "Ladies" sign was all we needed.

Perhaps this shows that we are a little immature to seperating females and males - I've seen it work with almost no seperation what-so-ever.
 
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