Fighting is for men

[MJP]

Isn't paternity leave provided to CF members?   I believe it is, but somebody can clear this one up.   So if we allow women to take time off for parenting needs and we allow men to take time off for parenting needs, then what is the use of comparing it to the issue of rucking and charging an MG nest?

Yes regardless of gender a CF memebr can take Parental leave.  
http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5001/2_e.asp

 

[midgetcop]

Other employers don't require their employees to charge machine gun nests, "yomp" 30 kliks with 100 lbs of kit on their backs, or disembowel "opponents" with a bayonet...

Which is exactly why women who are pregnant (*and* are in combat arms) require mat leave. Other than that, I don't see the problem. Do you?

 

[muskrat89]

Other than that, I don't see the problem. Do you?

I guess you don't see a problem; nor do you see MY point. I see you have less than 10 posts.. by a dozen, maybe you will discover that we have lots of different opinions here - on thousands of different subjects. I doubt every opinion will be the same as your own.

As I've said twice now, my "problem" is not that you feel women in the CF should have maternity leave; my "problem" is comparing the CF with other employers, in these types of arguments. Even the CDS and Hatchet Man agree with my point - and believe me, that probably doesn't happen so often 

 

[armyvern]

While I agree with her column and your posts, I do disagree on one of her fundemental agruments. That being:

Men don't fight for the feminist ideal of androgyny, but to protect the women they love -- wives, daughters, mothers, sisters -- and the values they represent -- normalcy, freedom and peace.

Quite the load of BS there. Here's where I stand on this...IF a female wishes to become a front line soldier and is able to meet the exact same standards as the man and to perform her job just as professionally as the man, why should she not be afforded that opportunity? After all, I believe that she has it all wrong in her quote above. I believe that these very few women able to do this (there's only 1 in 2RCR...well below the 14% ratio) should not be denied the opportunity to die for their "loved" ones (male OR female - as I also suspect is the case with you guys in contradiction to her claim that you only fight for females), their country or their beliefs just because they happen to be a female.

She seems to be arguing to have all females removed out of the first line fighting Units. I suspect this because of her remarks about how many body bags full of females is it going to take before they clue in and fix the problem.

I believe, and there are many men out there who will back this up, that there ARE females in front line units who can, and are, meeting the exact same standards as their male counterparts and performing just as well the men at any and all tasks assigned. I say good on them and let them continue, they have earned the right.

Now anybody (male or female) who can not meet the standard? Boot their butts out the door, and boot them quick, I have no problems with that, and I'll even help if necessary.

The problem is the lack of a common standard which everyone has to meet and that's it. Sex has nothing to do with it. Set the required standard, and make it applicable to one and all. If you can do...you're in. If not, don't let the door slam into your ass on the way out...

As a side note, the boys do get 'parental' leave too. And we did not comission any 'maternity combats'.
The Tailor shop simply adds in the spandex panel onto the front of the current cadpat pants and adds a panel into the back of the cadpat shirt. Most girls though...just keep exchanging their current cadpat up in waist sizes and chest sizes as their pregnancy progress.'

Just another girl's point of view...

 

[Armymedic]

Women who are pregnant are not on maternity leave. That type of leave only starts once the baby is born. They are on sick leave. When you become pregnant, you are given a 1 yr TCat. You do your 6-12 months of maternity leave, and once you return to work, another medical is done to take you off TCat.

Yes, they tailor 1 pr of CADPAT pants for women who are pregnant. Armyvern can comment more on the clothing issue....

I believe that all soldiers deserve the maternity and paternity (thats for us men to take time off, absolutely equal, and a good thing) once they have served some time. I believe the CF should add into its recruiting contract that because you can be provided birth control devices, you will not be entitled the reimbursement (to top up your UI which is 60% of wages) until you have served 3 yrs.

I am surprised and relieved that the above article is written by a woman. I am tired of seeing, hearing, and reading about female chauvinism and ultra feminism that degrades men(articles like "Why Men Will Become Extinct"). Equality in these cases is only meant as it was in George Orwell's Animal Farm, "All animals are equal, but some are more equal then others".

 

[armyvern]

I guess you don't see a problem; nor do you see MY point. I see you have less than 10 posts.. by a dozen, maybe you will discover that we have lots of different opinions here - on thousands of different subjects. I doubt every opinion will be the same as your own.

As I've said twice now, my "problem" is not that you feel women in the CF should have maternity leave; my "problem" is comparing the CF with other employers, in these types of arguments. Even the CDS and Hatchet Man agree with my point - and believe me, that probably doesn't happen so often  

I don't think that was the intention in the post...but more like....
Well if a girl shouldn't have the job because she made need to go on maternity leave than the guys who also do the same job should be barred from getting their own wives pregnant, as you would then lose them to parental leave.

But I do agree, I am sick and tired of being compared to a civilian company, or another employer. Do you know what the current Supply manual Volume three is now called? It used to be plain old Volume 3, it's now oficially called "Corporate Supply." Give me a break. I am in the military, I am not a 'manager' the troops who come into clothing are not 'customers.' Save the hugs and the lovey dovey crap. Keep it out of the military and my workplace. I get that at home from my family. I just want to be treated the same as everyone else and continue to soldier on.

Edited to fix typo and to add: And if you boys think fighting's for men you obviously have never been to the "Roma" and seen this red-headed girl in action!!  

 

[Infanteer]

Infanteer - maybe you missed my point. In my mind - I hate comparing the CF to "other jobs", no matter what we are talking about. We ask things of soldiers that other employees don't ask of their employees - whether they are accounts, carpenters, store clerks, or crab fishermen..

Okay, I see your point and I think you're right.  The unique nature of the Forces and its requirements (unlimited liability, monopoly on offensive violence, primacy of group over individual) means it shouldn't be viewed as simply another type of workplace.

 

[Infanteer]

I think armyvern's post pretty much put nailed it.

The Tailor shop simply adds in the spandex panel onto the front of the current cadpat pants and adds a panel into the back of the cadpat shirt.

Unfortunately, there are men AND women in the Forces who are getting these Combat's and the aren't pregnant.  Now that problem takes us back to standards, which you covered quite well.

 

[dutchie]

Armymedic beat me to it... but here's my 2 cents...

Just a point of clarification here.....there are 2 different things going on re:maternity/Parental leave & pay. One is the leave from the employer, the other is the payment from EI.Some people seem to be confusing 'leave' with 'Maternity/Parental EI benefits'.  It may be possible for a member to obtain leave anytime from the CF for Maternity/Parental reasons (I don't know the criteria for sure, Armymedic seems to have outlined that), but EI will not pay a woman Maternity until 8 weeks prior to the due date or the week of birth, whichever comes first. Parental pay from EI (available to Mom and Dad) cannot start prior to the baby's birth date. Sick pay from EI is only obtained when you are medically incapable of work. Being pregnant is not 'medically incapable' per se, but if the pregnancy is at risk due to work (rising blood pressure, lack of fetal development, etc.), than most doctors will write a sick note allowing an EI sick claim.

I don't know what a women is to do if she is preggers and in a combat arms unit, or even a Svc Bn about to go on ex. I would hope that the CF medical system would deem her unfit for an exercise and the like. I would also hope that any woman would not even think of going on ex while pregnant.

Women in combat? Yawn. Been there, done that, won't waste my time.

 

[beach_bum]

I don't know what a women is to do if she is preggers and in a combat arms unit, or even a Svc Bn about to go on ex. I would hope that the CF medical system would deem her unfit for an exercise and the like. I would also hope that any woman would not even think of going on ex while pregnant.

When you are pregnant, your med changes making you unfit field. 

 

[Armymedic]

I don't know what a women is to do if she is preggers and in a combat arms unit, or even a Svc Bn about to go on ex. I would hope that the CF medical system would deem her unfit for an exercise and the like. I would also hope that any woman would not even think of going on ex while pregnant.

Not "Unfit Field" (not allowed to say that anymore)
Women who are pregnant are "fit for sedentary duties only". Meaning office or garrison duties...no field, no hazards, etc.

 

[beach_bum]

Ahhh...it's been a few years for me.  I just remember what mine said.  LOL

 

[armyvern]

Armymedic beat me to it... but here's my 2 cents...

I don't know what a women is to do if she is preggers and in a combat arms unit, or even a Svc Bn about to go on ex. I would hope that the CF medical system would deem her unfit for an exercise and the like. I would also hope that any woman would not even think of going on ex while pregnant.

Women in combat? Yawn. Been there, done that, won't waste my time.

Well, I stayed field side in Petawawa while I was pregnant. They were going to move me to Base side and I lost it. There were plenty of jobs I was still capable of doing. Even went out to the field on Exs until I was 'too far along.' I don't know if anyone could pull that off these days though. My chit did read "unfit field, air, sea, UN" pretty much unfit to breathe, but my superiors figured I could pull it off and allowed me the opportunity to prove them right.

Women in combat and a yawn? You are truly missing out at your Unit then. Apparently yours 'do not meet the same standard' to which we refer. I dare say, we have quite a few outstanding and extremely competant and capable females in some of the CF front line Units. I'm sure that one of the boys can provide you further education in that area. So please don't let your own personal bias (which are obvious by this remark) undermine your ability to act professionally. 

 

[Kat Stevens]

"I believe that all soldiers deserve the maternity and paternity (thats for us men to take time off, absolutely equal, and a good thing) once they have served some time"

I have 4 kids, 2 born in Germany.  By your reckoning, I should have had 2-4 years at home, including 1-2 years on vacation in Germany. That's ludicrous, in my admittedly feeble mind.  My job was to be a combat engineer, armoured engineer operator.  Those guys were few and far between, and giving a guy person 6-12 months off is detrimental,  mission before self ring any bells?

Back to the crux of the question.  I have no issue with a woman who can meet the same physical requirements that I had to in '79.  That is not the case today: standards were lowered to encourage female recruitment.  Any female (or male) who can slug Bailey panels with me for 30+ hours is okay in my book.

 

[dutchie]

Women in combat and a yawn? You are truly missing out at your Unit then. Apparently yours 'do not meet the same standard' to which we refer. I dare say, we have quite a few outstanding and extremely competant and capable females in some of the CF front line Units. I'm sure that one of the boys can provide you further education in that area. So please don't let your own personal bias (which are obvious by this remark) undermine your ability to act professionally.  

You missed my point. This topic has been beaten to death. I (and others) have heard every coneivable point re:females in combat. I have neither the time nor the inclination to beat my brains out debating this when everyone is so entrenched in their viewpoint, that it turns into a bunfight in around 2 or 3 pages. My 'yawn' was reference the topic, it was not an expression of my position on the topic.

 

[armyvern]

"I believe that all soldiers deserve the maternity and paternity (thats for us men to take time off, absolutely equal, and a good thing) once they have served some time"

Once they have served some time...I agree with this.

I have 4 kids, 2 born in Germany.   By your reckoning, I should have had 2-4 years at home, including 1-2 years on vacation in Germany. That's ludicrous, in my admittedly feeble mind.   My job was to be a combat engineer, armoured engineer operator.   Those guys were few and far between, and giving a guy person 6-12 months off is detrimental,   mission before self ring any bells?

Anbody can have UP TO the max time off. Many, males and females included, have chosen to come back from their maternity/parental leaves for precisely the reasons you quote above.

Back to the crux of the question.   I have no issue with a woman who can meet the same physical requirements that I had to in '79.   That is not the case today: standards were lowered to encourage female recruitment.   Any female (or male) who can slug Bailey panels with me for 30+ hours is okay in my book.

I'm pretty sure that we agreed with this too. Set a standard (the proper standard) and make it applicable to all. And for the trades, set the trade standard (the proper one - ie slugging Bailey panels for 30plus hours) and make it applicable equally to all members who want to be in that trade.

Gee I slugged 80 pounders around by myself in Aircraft supply...does that count?? 

 

[midgetcop]

I guess you don't see a problem; nor do you see MY point. I see you have less than 10 posts.. by a dozen, maybe you will discover that we have lots of different opinions here - on thousands of different subjects. I doubt every opinion will be the same as your own.

Interesting. I see that my postcount has been brought up as a way to make your point more legit. Pretty sad. Because going by your own supposed point that we all have 1000 different opinions on these boards, then mine shouldn't really make a big wave, should it?

As I've said twice now, my "problem" is not that you feel women in the CF should have maternity leave; my "problem" is comparing the CF with other employers, in these types of arguments. Even the CDS and Hatchet Man agree with my point - and believe me, that probably doesn't happen so often  

Oh wow, I feel so silly.....OTHERS have agreed with your point.  :

Of course I can bring up maternity leave and bring it up as a comparison to other employers. And yes, I realize that you can't always compare the CF to your average employer out there. But you tell me, how in the instance of maternity/paternity leave, you *can't* compare the CF to other employers in Canada.

 

[Armymedic]

 Those guys were few and far between, and giving a guy person 6-12 months off is detrimental,   mission before self ring any bells?

It does Kat. But hey, I only abide by the rules...not make them.

If you don't like it, you should come over here and work at Fd Amb...our Mat/Pat board has more names then my Section does.

And I can't say a darn thing about it.

 

[Strike]

Men don't fight for the feminist ideal of androgyny, but to protect the women they love -- wives, daughters, mothers, sisters -- and the values they represent -- normalcy, freedom and peace.

Right, it's one thing for a woman to comment on how she thinks a woman should behave, but when she suddenly "knows" what a man is thiking?  Come on.

As for the numbers -- about 2% of the pilots of the CF are female.  Air Canada barely holds 1%.

WRT pregnancy, we can fly up to 5 months I think, or until we are uncomfortable.  That's for helos at least.  For jets, not at all.  Not sure about the other aircraft though.

 

[muskrat89]

I see that my postcount has been brought up as a way to make your point more legit

Sorry about your reading comprehension abilities. Your post count was not brought up to discredit your point; it was brought up to ridicule your snotty (and unearned) tone.

That's fine, we've had hundreds of folks hit the boards and try to play pokey-chest right out of the gate - most of them don't last long, or change their tune eventually.

Sorry, I have no qualms about the position you've taken on the issue, but your attitude doesn't  impress me. Good luck...