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If you're going to witch hunt tubby Cpls and Ptes, you better make sure you purge all the tubby Gens and Cols first..... 
Kat
Kat
Fat troops on the street....
- Thread starter Infanteer
- Start date
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
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We are a Classless Society.
Yeah! ...... Sure!
[EDIT] (Those darn Orwellian Pigs are raising their voices again)
Yeah! ...... Sure!
[EDIT] (Those darn Orwellian Pigs are raising their voices again)
George Wallace said:
Let's get serious they are quite a few Navy, Combat Arms and Air Force op pers who fit the "tubby" profile. It is not just purple people. Comd CTC Gagetown, in particular, made it mandatory that every course include PT regardless of duration or complexity. Only problem was he did not allow the course timetable or the workday to expand to account for these additional training periods.
TCBF said:
We can't even agree on (or defend in CHRA Tribunal) one standard for PT across the Forces other than the Shuttle Run/EXPRES test. Who is defining this level of appearance and deportment, especially for soldiers who can now serve to 60. We have not begun to discover what it means financially and administratively to have people serving that long. Everyone will be medically released in the future because you will be allowed to serve until you are broken or have enough coming in from your pensions to permit a life of leisure.
So let's speed the breaking process by continually testing people who have great skills to go with a high IQ and suffer from declining fitness by "someone's ill-defined standard". Since there has historically been 10 log/admin/truckers for every soldier in the trench or on the beachhead, how does this make sense. Sorry Billy you are great leader, tactician and strategist but you just can't keep up to the 4 minute mile pace at the Regt/Bn/School, so off you go - your kind ain't welcome in this town.
Fitness is only one characteristic of a good member of the CF - purple or otherwise.
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TCBF is right on.
Perfect examples of our travesty of fitness exist throughout the CF, but I believe that the purple trades enjoy a far higher proportion of the plump. Anyone seen that Air Force Colonel in Trenton who sits on two chairs? I saw him have FOURTHS.
Anyway, a perfect example of our "inclusiveness" is the PLQ mod trg. The instructors on the course - all WATC permanent staff, were SUPPOSED to assess the candidates ability to teach PT. Unfortunately, they were unable to keep up every AM, and ended up assessing from the rear, after they shortened PT to 15mins. How in the &*% are those guys supposed to lead a rifle section? How can you lead when you need medical assistance to keep up with the advance?
Some Cpls passed the course unable to climb three flights of stairs with their webbing on, and are now entusted to lead.
Those Sgts should have been tossed or forced to remuster a decade ago. Promote younger soldiers and fix our geriatric NCO corps, and the rest of the army will fall into line - after all - they are the backbone - right?
As for the rest of the military, use the Coopers test. You score say, 65, or are ineligible for promotion. Higher scores are calculated into the merit boards. The same rationale can be used as exists for french trg "I learned french, and you can too" There are gyms on every CF base - use'em.
OR only make uniforms to a certain size limit - if you can't fit - well, I guess you will have to waddle around with your gut hanging out - until you are shamed into losing it.
Seriously though, how competent can a leader be if they cannot muster the willpower to restrict their caloric intake and do 20 mins of cardio a day?
Perfect examples of our travesty of fitness exist throughout the CF, but I believe that the purple trades enjoy a far higher proportion of the plump. Anyone seen that Air Force Colonel in Trenton who sits on two chairs? I saw him have FOURTHS.
Anyway, a perfect example of our "inclusiveness" is the PLQ mod trg. The instructors on the course - all WATC permanent staff, were SUPPOSED to assess the candidates ability to teach PT. Unfortunately, they were unable to keep up every AM, and ended up assessing from the rear, after they shortened PT to 15mins. How in the &*% are those guys supposed to lead a rifle section? How can you lead when you need medical assistance to keep up with the advance?
Some Cpls passed the course unable to climb three flights of stairs with their webbing on, and are now entusted to lead.
Those Sgts should have been tossed or forced to remuster a decade ago. Promote younger soldiers and fix our geriatric NCO corps, and the rest of the army will fall into line - after all - they are the backbone - right?
As for the rest of the military, use the Coopers test. You score say, 65, or are ineligible for promotion. Higher scores are calculated into the merit boards. The same rationale can be used as exists for french trg "I learned french, and you can too" There are gyms on every CF base - use'em.
OR only make uniforms to a certain size limit - if you can't fit - well, I guess you will have to waddle around with your gut hanging out - until you are shamed into losing it.
Seriously though, how competent can a leader be if they cannot muster the willpower to restrict their caloric intake and do 20 mins of cardio a day?
Your right about us css having more overweight people, i guess it all comes down to personal pride and self discipline. a lot of folks in css trades don't take soldiering seriously, therefore feel that fitness is a non issue. also, the cf express test is well ok, but when some one fails nothing is done. in addition the bft is partially to blame, alot of people can walk 13.2 k with a ruck. why not make it manditory to complete both evaluations every year then deal with a failure in an approprite manner.
hey GO, have things changed in wianwright? last i heard psp taught the physical fitness portion? not trying to be an a-hole, just asking.
hey GO, have things changed in wianwright? last i heard psp taught the physical fitness portion? not trying to be an a-hole, just asking.
"Fitness is only one characteristic of a good member of the CF - purple or otherwise."
Correct. So, right now we are spending huge splodges of wonga on 'scientific' programs and purty picture books related to CF fitness, but have no WILL to set or enforce any sort of standard at all.
No one wants to go back to the BMI program where Cbt A soldiers were being released for 'obesity' by clerks who were fatter than they were.
As well, some trades/positions need fitter troops than others.
So:
1. Should there be a minimum CF standard, or separate ones for each service?
2. Should the PT stds be by trade, or trade and position?
3. Should a Fit category be developed like the Med Category (312225, etc), coded to each individual, and various posting positions be given a code.? For example, lets say I want to be posted as an Armoured Recce Observer/Controller at CMTC. It is coded FitCat ABDCA. I am ACEBA. That means I can't go until I pass the test to the standard needed of the position. Comments?
4. Should COs see a person's Med Cat and FitCat as part of their posting instruction, and be able to quash the posting of those deemed 'Not Wanted In Unit', etc.
Comments?
Tom
Correct. So, right now we are spending huge splodges of wonga on 'scientific' programs and purty picture books related to CF fitness, but have no WILL to set or enforce any sort of standard at all.
No one wants to go back to the BMI program where Cbt A soldiers were being released for 'obesity' by clerks who were fatter than they were.
As well, some trades/positions need fitter troops than others.
So:
1. Should there be a minimum CF standard, or separate ones for each service?
2. Should the PT stds be by trade, or trade and position?
3. Should a Fit category be developed like the Med Category (312225, etc), coded to each individual, and various posting positions be given a code.? For example, lets say I want to be posted as an Armoured Recce Observer/Controller at CMTC. It is coded FitCat ABDCA. I am ACEBA. That means I can't go until I pass the test to the standard needed of the position. Comments?
4. Should COs see a person's Med Cat and FitCat as part of their posting instruction, and be able to quash the posting of those deemed 'Not Wanted In Unit', etc.
Comments?
Tom
Kinda goes against universality of service though, but so does not enforcing the "rules" i guess. as a css trade, if push comes to shove and we wind up in the s**t, i want some one who can cover my ass breaking contact, not stroke out half way through.
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TCBF said:
NO. This idea came up in my BMQ/SQ and I must say that I do not agree. One standard for all. There should be no 'weak' trades and I think that each person should strive to beat whatever standard there is; this idea goes with that saying 'Train hard fight easy...'. Even though I'm not an infanteer I strive to not only match their physical standards but to beat them. I guess my pride shouldn't be forced upon others but I do not believe that soldiers should be able to hide behind their trade when it comes to doing a little PT.
solutions? I was hoping to get-by with a quick rant. Perhaps more stress on PT (I don't think that it is given enough priority). Perhaps set-up programs where everybody who does not meet a standard must increase PT levels and have evaluations. I'm not expecting miracles, but as long as soldiers are improving week by week the institution would be stronger as a whole and this would be less of a concern over time.
. Don't allow sports during PT time. Save pT time for PT. Train for sports, don't use sports to train.So, no regimental hockey team practices during PT? Don't theses guys get a pretty good workout at practice?
When I was a Trooper in Pet in the good old days (+-), bowling was a legit sport on sports afternoon. I was 21. There was beer sold in every bowling alley in the CF. (Great hangout for the chronics who had to behave in the Mess). We were gooned at supper every Monday night.
I think eliminating bowling from Regt sports afternoon was probably a good move, but hockey, soccer, broomball and floor hock are good work outs, or can be.
Tom
When I was a Trooper in Pet in the good old days (+-), bowling was a legit sport on sports afternoon. I was 21. There was beer sold in every bowling alley in the CF. (Great hangout for the chronics who had to behave in the Mess). We were gooned at supper every Monday night.
I think eliminating bowling from Regt sports afternoon was probably a good move, but hockey, soccer, broomball and floor hock are good work outs, or can be.
Tom
I agree, they are good workouts, but it's easy for people to dog it. Besides Tom, we have probably both seen the "guy" who is too hurt or too busy to do pt all year then when hockey season come around, bam, he's ok or he's not so busy anymore. maybe only troops who get an exempt on their express tes should be allowed to play on bn sports teams.
"maybe only troops who get an exempt on their express tes should be allowed to play on bn sports teams."
-Hmmmmnnnn... IIRC, guys who did the mil sports competition in the 8 CH in Lahr (I did the Forced March Team for five years) still did the 2X10, or whatever it was, buy saying you can't do sports unless you exempt on Express (or ___ on the 13km+)?
Interesting. But I think the field of 'waivers' and 'exemptions' offer more abuses than the taxpayer funded regtl oldtimers hockey clubs do.
Tom
-Hmmmmnnnn... IIRC, guys who did the mil sports competition in the 8 CH in Lahr (I did the Forced March Team for five years) still did the 2X10, or whatever it was, buy saying you can't do sports unless you exempt on Express (or ___ on the 13km+)?
Interesting. But I think the field of 'waivers' and 'exemptions' offer more abuses than the taxpayer funded regtl oldtimers hockey clubs do.
Tom
Hey, i am not saying ban sports afternoons or shut sports down, they are a cf tradition to a point. Just use morning pt for pt...maybe do crossfit or somthing out of the army fitness manual etc. crossfit is great, makes me want to throw up when i am done. and depending on the work out it can take between 15 mins to an hour.
Besides, the 13.2k is a crock of s**t ;D. i think more people can pass that than the express test, nevermind get an exempt.
Besides, the 13.2k is a crock of s**t ;D. i think more people can pass that than the express test, nevermind get an exempt.
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JESUS CHRIST!!!!
WHAT IS THIS ARMY COMING TO???????????????????
These people are lucky I'm not their commanding officer.
WHAT IS THIS ARMY COMING TO???????????????????
These people are lucky I'm not their commanding officer.
- Reaction score
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GO!!! said:
+1. GO is right on the money here. Let's not candy coat the topic with the "its ok to be fat" line - I've seen enough stragglers watching 1 GS Btn run or ruck (or watching the 40 year old soccer moms pull up the rear in a 1 CER run we passed) to know that this is real.
I think TCBF's proposal is a very doable first step into enforcing a standard - there are many that can't do the Express Test (I guarantee it).
Gunner98 said:
That's the kind of mentality that has us where we are.
Need a solution? I read a history of the Sergeants Major of the United States Marine Corps (look at these men after 30 years of service). Anyways, the book went into detail about the Marines recovering quickly from the post-Vietnam "dark times" - dealing with chronically unfit troops was one of the subjects that successive Commandants and Sergeants Major dealt with - pictures in dress uniform were included with pers files at promotion boards. Draconian policies? Perhaps. But the Corps seems to be holding its own.
There is a problem here - read the anecdote that got this thread going again. Look at recruiting standards in the US, Britain and Australia; all are far higher than in Canada. End result - we reap what we sow; I'm willing to be being physically prepared has a big link with being mentally prepared. There is a reason you don't hear about US Marines sobbing to the Ombudsman about an 18 hour work day....
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FWC - yes, the watc instructors "teach" :
PT on the Mod 6 now.
I think another major problem (in edmonton anyway) is the QUALITY of PT being done, not so much the time allocated. How many of us have borne witness to a section of wogs in PT gear strolling around the running track, coffee and darts in hand, moving so slowly that they do not even break a sweat?
The time has been allocated, the CoC is not enforcing the trg! How about GS Bn's webbing walks?
The Brit royal marines are a bit closer to the mark with their system of "Gym workout #1" in which there is a set number of exercises and repetitions that must be performed in a set time - this way "going for a run" is not as subjective as it is now.
I personnaly find it embarrassing to stand next to a man in uniform in maternity wear in the bank, the civvies can't really tell the difference - other than the obvious!
PT should be a requirement - if you are unable to score 65 on the Coopers test, counselling, C+P, release. We don't need you.
PT on the Mod 6 now.I think another major problem (in edmonton anyway) is the QUALITY of PT being done, not so much the time allocated. How many of us have borne witness to a section of wogs in PT gear strolling around the running track, coffee and darts in hand, moving so slowly that they do not even break a sweat?
The time has been allocated, the CoC is not enforcing the trg! How about GS Bn's webbing walks?
The Brit royal marines are a bit closer to the mark with their system of "Gym workout #1" in which there is a set number of exercises and repetitions that must be performed in a set time - this way "going for a run" is not as subjective as it is now.
I personnaly find it embarrassing to stand next to a man in uniform in maternity wear in the bank, the civvies can't really tell the difference - other than the obvious!
PT should be a requirement - if you are unable to score 65 on the Coopers test, counselling, C+P, release. We don't need you.
Haggis
Army.ca Veteran
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About 2 weeks ago I was asked two questions by a civilian manager at work (I'm at NDHQ). "Are military members entitled to time during the work day for PT?" and "Am I responsible for thier level of fitness?"
I supplied a quote from CFAO 50-1 (emphasis is mine):
"REQUIREMENT AND RESPONSIBILITY
4. It is a mandatory military requirement that members participate in the Canadian Forces Exercise Prescription (CF EXPRES) Program. The physical fitness training prescribed under this Program shall be conducted during normal working hours when circumstances permit. When this is not feasible, the member must maintain training outside normal working hours, in accordance with the member's CF EXPRES Program prescription. The times and places of physical fitness training outside normal working hours will be determined mutually by the member and the EXPRES evaluator. To the extent practicable, these times and places shall be annotated on form DND 279 -- CF EXPRES and approved by the commanding officer (CO). This physical training shall be considered as fulfilling the military requirement for participation in the CF EXPRES Program even when conducted outside normal working hours.
5. Leadership is fundamental to program success and therefore the primary responsibility rests with the chain of command (including civilian supervisors and managers) to ensure that all members actively participate in regular exercise programs.
6. To meet their specific requirements, commanders of commands may amplify this order by publishing command physical fitness policies and instructions consistent with this order. In addition, due to the varying nature of employment of Reservists on Continuous or Periodic Reserve Service (Class A or B) for less than 181 days, commanders of commands are delegated authority to determine the level of fitness required for these members of the Reserve Force.
7. COs are responsible for programs conducted in accordance with CF policy and command direction. Physical education and recreation (PE&R) staffs are responsible to their COs for planning, organizing, conducting, instructing, and evaluating CF physical training programs. Where necessary, members of other military occupations who are appropriately qualified Unit/Ship Physical Training Assistants may evaluate and train personnel under this order."
and....
"3. Career Administrative Policy -- General. If failure is determined to be a performance deficiency, then CFAOs: 26-17, Recorded Warning and Counselling and Probation -- Non-Commissioned Members, 26-21, Career Shortcomings -- Officers -- with notification to NDHQ may apply. If it is a medical problem then 34-26, Career Medical Review Board, may apply. If Service requirements have precluded adequate remedial training, then the above CFAOs may be inappropriate and alternative corrective measures may be required. In all cases the CO has requisite authority to remedy the situation."
Now , if the regulation is applied with both spirit and intent in mind, there is no excuse for being out of shape.
GO!!! In all fairness, the CFMPFS is pretty low. But for now it's THE Standard. It MUST be enforced before we can move on.
I supplied a quote from CFAO 50-1 (emphasis is mine):
"REQUIREMENT AND RESPONSIBILITY
4. It is a mandatory military requirement that members participate in the Canadian Forces Exercise Prescription (CF EXPRES) Program. The physical fitness training prescribed under this Program shall be conducted during normal working hours when circumstances permit. When this is not feasible, the member must maintain training outside normal working hours, in accordance with the member's CF EXPRES Program prescription. The times and places of physical fitness training outside normal working hours will be determined mutually by the member and the EXPRES evaluator. To the extent practicable, these times and places shall be annotated on form DND 279 -- CF EXPRES and approved by the commanding officer (CO). This physical training shall be considered as fulfilling the military requirement for participation in the CF EXPRES Program even when conducted outside normal working hours.
5. Leadership is fundamental to program success and therefore the primary responsibility rests with the chain of command (including civilian supervisors and managers) to ensure that all members actively participate in regular exercise programs.
6. To meet their specific requirements, commanders of commands may amplify this order by publishing command physical fitness policies and instructions consistent with this order. In addition, due to the varying nature of employment of Reservists on Continuous or Periodic Reserve Service (Class A or B) for less than 181 days, commanders of commands are delegated authority to determine the level of fitness required for these members of the Reserve Force.
7. COs are responsible for programs conducted in accordance with CF policy and command direction. Physical education and recreation (PE&R) staffs are responsible to their COs for planning, organizing, conducting, instructing, and evaluating CF physical training programs. Where necessary, members of other military occupations who are appropriately qualified Unit/Ship Physical Training Assistants may evaluate and train personnel under this order."
and....
"3. Career Administrative Policy -- General. If failure is determined to be a performance deficiency, then CFAOs: 26-17, Recorded Warning and Counselling and Probation -- Non-Commissioned Members, 26-21, Career Shortcomings -- Officers -- with notification to NDHQ may apply. If it is a medical problem then 34-26, Career Medical Review Board, may apply. If Service requirements have precluded adequate remedial training, then the above CFAOs may be inappropriate and alternative corrective measures may be required. In all cases the CO has requisite authority to remedy the situation."
Now , if the regulation is applied with both spirit and intent in mind, there is no excuse for being out of shape.
GO!!! In all fairness, the CFMPFS is pretty low. But for now it's THE Standard. It MUST be enforced before we can move on.
