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Election 2015

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Kilo:  In refernce to a national daycare plan, I think that sort of thing shoul deb relegated to the provinces.  I see daycare as not just babysitting but those are formative, should fall under education, a provincial jurisdiction. 

Take the Quebec example which has arguably a successful program but I wonder at what cost.  While there is no argument that the program pays for itself on the larger social scale I wonder what effect it actually has on the kids themselves.

Those that I know that have their kids in the daycare program in Quebec certainly enjoy the savings (those at least that aren't on a waiting list) but many are not satisfied with the quality of said daycare.  You get off the waiting list and want to move your child because your daycare is providing subpar service, it is difficult to move to another daycare without going on another list and losing your spot.  The daycares also hold a lot of the cards about their service.  In my province at least I can choose any daycare I want and if I'm not satified I can go somewhere else.  It is market led and therefore service standards will tend to be higher.  There's no noose around my neck.

A national daycare program is not something I can get behind because I don't trust that it will be the best thing for kids. 
 
Kilo_302 said:
........instead we could merely subsidize Canadian families to help PAY for daycare. A

So you agree with the current payments to families.  Then what is your issue?

As for Mulcair's proposal, if he wants to model it on the Quebec example, how does he propose to have it work nationally at the cost he uses, if Quebec is bankrupting itself trying to operate on the same, or larger, amount?
 
Infanteer said:
Yes, but I do resent the implication from Kilo302's rabid posting that I'm some sort of moron who has been bought off by a cheap political trick.  As I said above, the UCCB is a useful government expenditure, and one far better use of taxpayer dollars than some Pink Floyd rock concert or to provide grants to a Cavier business.

Correct.  It is a cheap political trick in regards to the timing and they way they are selling it. No different than what any other party would do or has done.  And honestly from the reactions in the media and and else where, I think most Canadians aren't all of a sudden converting to the CPC cause because of this, so I agree with you.  As I mentioned, I truly believe that this is in line with their (the CPC) philosphy and not just some out of your hat idea.

Most people seem to welcome it.  And why not. Your example of the RESP contribution is a prime example of exactly how and why the UCCB was introduced.  Your money suddenly goes a lot further.  Money that would have to come from elsewhere in your budget.
 
Crantor said:
Take the Quebec example which has arguably a successful program but I wonder at what cost.  While there is no argument that the program pays for itself on the larger social scale I wonder what effect it actually has on the kids themselves.

The Quebec example is far from successful, with long lineups to get children into it, in some cases years.  It also is not as universal as one is lead to believe.  The costs to operate it are skyrocketing way beyond what was originally stated.  Far from successful and really not an example to use for a national plan; as far as the media reports I am hearing.

 
George Wallace said:
The Quebec example is far from successful, with long lineups to get children into it, in some cases years.  It also is not as universal as one is lead to believe.  The costs to operate it are skyrocketing way beyond what was originally stated.  Far from successful and really not an example to use for a national plan; as far as the media reports I am hearing.

Hence why I used the word "arguably" as well as my follow up comments about the quality of the program.
 
Here's an article that neatly lays out the need for a targeted program, and how it's not that realistic. Of course, Quebec is referenced.

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/behind-numbers/2015/04/were-paying-7day-child-care-so-why-only-one-province-getting-i

I understand many of you won't view anything from rabble.ca  (or the CCPA) as being a legitimate contribution to the discussion, but treat the article on it's merits and the data it cites. This is a rational discussion, and I appreciate that people "don't want more government in their lives" or that they believe that the government will inevitably make a mess of things, but there ARE instances of successful child care programs and there's a mountain of evidence that they are good for the economy AND for parents as well as the children.

I'll repost this article as well:

http://www.royalcollege.ca/portal/page/portal/rc/common/documents/advocacy/EBBDEL_statement_e.pdf


Here's a study of the economics of childcare in Quebec:

http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/atkinson/UserFiles/File/News/Fortin-Godbout-St_Cerny_eng.pdf

BC study:

http://www.bcgeu.ca/files/Affordable_Costing_Summary.pdf

Globe and Mail article:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/parenting/what-the-world-can-teach-canada-about-building-better-daycare/article15036667/?page=all




 
Here's an interesting article from the Daily Telegraph.

Shoppers in small-town high streets should be allowed to park free, a minister has indicated, as figures show that councils are raising more money than ever from motorists.
Marcus Jones, who was made high streets minister in David Cameron’s post-election reshuffle, suggested that small town centres could become “parking meter-free zones” in an effort to save shops from closure.

Apparently it is imperative that the parliamentarians of a G7 country involve themselves in deciding whether there should be parking outside the local Boots pharmacy.

Some folks might think that that would be better handled locally.
 
Kirkhill said:
Here's an interesting article from the Daily Telegraph.

Apparently it is imperative that the parliamentarians of a G7 country involve themselves in deciding whether there should be parking outside the local Boots pharmacy.

Some folks might think that that would be better handled locally.
Agreed, but that's also what you get when you have a federal minister for municipal affairs - the level of the "nosey Parker" is higher than here, where it's provincial ministers shooting outside their lanes  ;D
 
Harrigan said:
You might be right, but as we have never had a federal NDP government, we don't know how they'll react if they were to win.  I tend to agree that all politicians are more or less the same, but we can't say "Well, if the Liberals and Conservatives do it, then obviously the NDP will do it too). 

As an Ontarian paying taxes in the 90-95 timeframe, I am entirely okay with extrapolating the provincial NDP's deleterious effect on Ontarians to the Federal level.  It think the NDP actually make an excellent opposition party.  I actually respect the Ontario NDP's principals to not take any cabinet positions, when they came to their 1985 agreement with the LPO, choosing to help the Liberals form the Government in Toronto, but remaining as the Official Opposition.

I think the best thing for Canada at this point, is a Conservative minority with a significantly stronger NDP Opposition holding the PM and his cabinet to account and draw out a little nicer (less nasty) behaviour on the PM's part.  The Liberals should get the swift kick to the teeth that their vapid, self-interested party deserves, regroup and come back when they have some long-term, endurable principles...they should feel free to ask either the CPC or NDP how to have long-term, relatively unchanging principles, as both those parties have been fairly close to their baseline principles. 

:2c:

G2G
 
A much simpler program for improving the lives of all Canadians would be to institute government spending cuts to allow for broad based tax cuts, rather than "botique" tax cuts here and there.

Drop the percentage of Canadian's income spent on taxes, government fees and so on from the current 40-44% (estimates vary depending on methodology, but are in the same ballpark) for the average family of four to 30-35%. This delivers an immediate 10% raise in take home pay for these Canadians, and provides the resources for them to choose what courses of action to take, rather than depending on the whim of the government/bureaucracy of the day to deliver a more expensive and less effective product which may or may not benefit them.

And there are lots of places to get those spending cuts. Canada puts out over 30Billion/year in subsidies to industry, which transformative Conservatives could slash on the basis that "governments don't pick winners and losers", while the transformative NDP could campaign against this by attacking "corporate welfare". (Since Canada already has some of the lowest business taxes in the OECD, business should not complain too much). Eliminating redundent or duplicate programs has the potential to save billions, as would eliminating departments and ministries that duplicate the roles of the Provinces according to the BNA act. I'm sure there are lots of other places where savings could be had, while still leaving individual transfers, the military, law enforcement and the Judiciary alone.
 
Kilo_302 said:
Here's an article that neatly lays out the need for a targeted program, and how it's not that realistic. Of course, Quebec is referenced.

http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/behind-numbers/2015/04/were-paying-7day-child-care-so-why-only-one-province-getting-i

I understand many of you won't view anything from rabble.ca  (or the CCPA) as being a legitimate contribution to the discussion, but treat the article on it's merits and the data it cites. This is a rational discussion, and I appreciate that people "don't want more government in their lives" or that they believe that the government will inevitably make a mess of things, but there ARE instances of successful child care programs and there's a mountain of evidence that they are good for the economy AND for parents as well as the children.

Do you live in Quebec and have children? 

My brother and his Quebecois wife moved from Ontario to Quebec to benefit from what he had assessed as a more supportive environment to raise his two daughter while he and his wife pursued professional careers.  Well...a couple years later and his disappointment in a faulty business case is leading him to look at moving back across the Ottawa River to Ontario.  $6/day daycare sounds great...but the higher taxes are even greater than the difference between QC and ON daycare...he joke that the "Releve 1" form is a euphemism for "take money directly out of my wallet" form.

Don't think that you're getting anything that you haven't already paid for.  The point that others made earlier to you and that seems unappreciated is that money in people's hands lets THEM decide how to spend it and how to avoid the overhead that naturally is associated with government programs (such as the highly-vaunted QC daycare program).

G2G
 
Crantor said:
...
To be honest, this is electioneering.  The announcement and delivery of this was carefully crafted and delivered at the right time to maximize vote getting.  Let's not kid ourselves.  This happens at every election.  The party in power has goodies to deliver and they'll do it when it suits them.  Being offended by it like it's some sort of aberration is being disingenuous. 

...


The same subject, electioneering, but in a different portfolio ~ Veterans ~ is dealt with in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/veterans-draw-election-battle-lines-over-benefits/article25595720/
gam-masthead.png

Veterans draw election battle lines over benefits

GLORIA GALLOWAY
OTTAWA — The Globe and Mail

Last updated Tuesday, Jul. 21, 2015

BENEFITS BATTLE LINES
The Conservatives’ amicable Veterans Affairs minister announced a series of top-ups for disabled veterans earlier this year but it may not be enough to prevent an electoral backlash, reports Gloria Galloway​

Veterans Affairs Minister Erin O’Toole spent much of March tweaking the benefits that Canada pays to injured former soldiers, sailors and airmen, trying to patch the deep rift between the Conservative government and the country’s vets.

His task had some urgency. With the discontent of veterans escalating, Prime Minister Stephen Harper faced a fall election campaign in which ex-military personnel would complain about mistreatment by a government that came to power in 2006 promising them both honour and respect.

But the efforts of the personable Mr. O’Toole, who landed in the Veterans portfolio after his predecessor was demoted, may not satisfy angry veterans. Some critics say the reforms do not go nearly far enough and promise to ensure that a party offering better compensation for their service and sacrifice replaces Mr. Harper’s Tories.

Mr. O’Toole made five key improvements for disabled vets. He expanded retirement income security, increased payouts to injured part-time reservists, made it easier for family caregivers to take a break, expanded the eligibility for allowances for the permanently impaired, and created a special benefit for those who are critically injured.

The minister says the new benefits and supports were the direct result of consultations with former members of the Armed Forces and “our work is a long-term project built on progress and adapting to the needs of veterans and their families.”

But some of those who believe disabled veterans get a raw deal dismiss the changes as insubstantial. Altogether, they will cost the the federal treasury about $10-million this year, a relatively small amount compared to government promises for military expenditures such as upgrades to armouries.

“There have been many announcements and very little follow-through,” said Michael Blois, the former president of the Afghanistan Veterans of Canada. “I and many other Afghanistan veterans feel that the government has made announcements for the benefit of press coverage but has failed to actually live up to their promises. At this moment, I struggle to see how Afghanistan veterans will be able to support a Conservative government in the coming election.”

The New Veterans Charter, which was introduced by the Liberals and endorsed by all parties in the House of Commons, became law shortly after the Conservatives were elected in 2006. It replaced a system of lifetime pensions for disabled vets with one that relies heavily on lump-sum payments. That prompted some veterans to say the government treats the soldiers of long ago more favourably than those who are retiring today.

It is impossible to say how widespread any electoral backlash might be. Many soldiers, whom the Conservatives have regarded as one of their natural constituencies, leave active duty without ever needing the services of Veterans Affairs. But those who are speaking out claim to represent large numbers.

“No, we are not satisfied and, no, you haven’t done enough, and, no, it’s not going to change the way that many, many, many veterans vote on election day,” said Michael Blais, the head of Canadian Veterans Advocacy.

His group is working with trade unions to organize a rally on Parliament Hill two weeks before election day to encourage veterans and their families to cast ballots. Mr. Blais said he will not ask them to support any particular party. “But we will encourage them to vote.”

A more direct assault against Mr. Harper has been launched by a group that calls itself the ABC Campaign – Anything But Conservative – which was inspired by the government’s closing of nine Veterans Affairs offices across Canada.

ABC was created by Ron Clarke, a 74-year-old former army sergeant from Cape Breton, N.S., who will try to persuade veterans and other Canadians to vote strategically to prevent a Tory win. “We’re going after the government and we’re not going to stop until the election and hopefully, by that time, Mr. Harper will see the error in his ways,” Mr. Clarke said.

Some vets are taking a more wait-and-see approach.

A group of disabled Afghanistan veterans has agreed to put a lawsuit launched in 2012 on hold until after the election to give the plaintiffs a chance to assess what the political parties are offering. As a result, some of the vets have been invited to meet with Mr. O’Toole and serve as his advisers.

Don Sorochan, the lawyer who agreed to take the case pro bono, said some of Mr. O’Toole’s changes have been on target, even if they did not go as far as many veterans would like. “And, in my view,” he said, “we should let the political parties tell the people of Canada what they will do and that is one of the factors they should use in deciding who the next government should be.”

Scott Maxwell, the executive director of Wounded Warriors Canada, complimented the work of Mr. O’Toole.

Mr. Maxwell said the only reason veterans should be angry at the government is the amount of “valuable time” it took to replace the previous Veterans Affairs minister, Julian Fantino, with someone who is more active on the file. “You’ve got a guy there now in Erin who is working very hard and fast to repair some of that lost time and actually starting to target some of the critical areas of need,” Mr. Maxwell said.

But Sean Bruyea, a retired intelligence officer who is now a veterans’ advocate, dismisses Mr. O’Toole’s announcements as inadequate, miserly, and “pure facades.”

“I think in the longer term, [the Conservatives] have only made it worse for themselves because they have poisoned the well of trust, and veterans’ groups will realize that what they have unanimously asked for hasn’t even come close to being delivered,” Mr. Bruyea said.

The five major improvements offered to disabled veterans amounts to about $10 million annually and were developed, according to Veterans Affairs Minister Erin O’Toole in consultation with former Armed Forces personnel

Retirement Income Security Benefit

What it does: Ensures that the retirement income of veterans who suffered career-ending injuries during their military service does not drop below 70 per cent of what they were earning before age 65.

Projected cost: $2-million a year

Estimate of how many will benefit: 500

Rationale: The earnings-loss benefit ensures that veterans who are totally and permanently incapacitated receive at least 75 per cent of their pre-release salary, or a minimum of $42,426 annually, until they turn 65. But some vets have been plunged into poverty when the benefit ends after they reach the retirement age. The new benefit ensures they will receive an amount equal to or greater than 70 per cent of all of the benefits they collected from Veterans Affairs before that age.

What critics say: The government is guaranteeing to pay permanently incapacitated veterans 70 per cent of 75 per cent of the pre-release salary – or 52 per cent of what they were making as soldiers – upon reaching retirement age. Critics question why the salaries of military personnel who can no longer work because of a critical injury should decrease at all, and say many veterans will still be poor.

Parity for Part-Time Reservists

What it does: Increases to $42,426 the minimum annual earnings-loss benefit for part-time reservists who are severely injured during military activities in Canada and must undergo a Veterans Affairs rehabilitation program or can no longer work.

Projected cost: $24-million over five years

How many will benefit: About 290 by 2020

Rationale: Part-time reservists who were so badly injured during training in Canada that they had to quit their military jobs were eligible to receive $24,300 annually while taking part in a Veterans Affairs rehab program, or after participating in such a program if they were permanently unable to work. That was significantly less than the $42,426 offered to regular members of the Forces. This eliminates the inequity.

What critics say: Even critics applaud the measure, although they question why it was not done sooner, because the inequity has been known for many years.

Family Caregiver Relief Benefit

What it does: Provides family members who are informal caregivers of disabled veterans with tax-free grants of $7,238 annually to pay for someone to take over periodically while they have a break.

Projected cost per year: $1.3-million in 2015-16, increasing to $2.9-million by 2019-20

How many will benefit: 350 spouses or caregivers of the most seriously ill and injured veterans by 2020

Rationale: Family members of disabled veterans who care for their loved ones at home sometimes need to recharge. This will help them to do that, either by hiring a professional or paying a friend or other family member.

What critics say: Many spouses, children or parents have had to quit their jobs to care for severely wounded veterans. Some said they should be compensated for the loss of income, and this amount is too small to replace a missing salary. Others said they need training to help them learn how to deal with complex injuries like post-traumatic stress disorder, and this does not do that.

Expansion of Permanent Impairment Allowance Eligibility

What it does: Makes more people eligible for the monthly allowance that is paid until death to permanently and severely injured veterans who have mobility issues or need help with daily activities.

How many will benefit: About 300 by 2020

Projected cost per year: About $2.2-million in 2015-2016, increasing to $6.2-million by 2019-2020

Rationale: The criteria were too narrow for receiving the permanent impairment allowance, which pays $600 to $2,800 a month and is awarded according to the extent of a veteran’s incapacitation. The Veterans Ombudsman found last year that 48 per cent of totally and permanently incapacitated veterans did not receive the allowance, and even some of the most severely injured were getting the lowest amount.

What critics say: The government predicts that 300 more veterans will be eligible for the permanent impairment allowance by 2020. But that is far fewer than the 823 the Veterans Ombudsman said are not receiving it or a supplement even though they “suffer from a health condition that prevents them from returning to any occupation that is considered to be suitable and gainful employment.”

Critical Injury Benefit for Armed Forces and Veterans

What it does: Provides a tax-free benefit to members of the Canadian Forces and veterans who experience an injury or disease related to their military service that is so severe it immediately interferes with their quality of life.

Projected cost per year: $200,000

How many will benefit: About 100 current veterans and Canadian Forces members and two or three additional members a year in the future.

Rationale: Some members of the military who suffer severe and sudden injuries in the line of duty endure an immediate decrease in their quality of life. But, if they recover and can return to active service or find work outside the military, they may never be compensated for their pain and suffering.

What critics say: While key demands from veterans and their advocates have gone unaddressed, this seemed to come out of nowhere. It will not benefit many people, and appears to exclude those with mental injuries, although Veterans Affairs says that is not the case.


I believe that there is a sound case to be made that, traditionally, since 1920, Canada has been very, some would argue overly generous with veterans' benefits. It's not surprising: we sent HUGE masses of (mostly) men to fight in 1914-18 and 1939-45 and, when they came home, they, and their friends and families, voted for politicians who promised generous benefits. Governments listened, as they do when a HUGE constituency comes calling.

I remain convinced that the New Veterans' Charter, which this (Conservative) government inherited from the Liberals was, and remains, immoral because of the way it was introduced: during a period when we had troops in combat and without "grandfathering" those already serving. In my opinion the New Veterans' Charter must be amended to provide the "old" benefits to every soldier who was serving when the NVC was proclaimed (in 2006). That is the only morally sound course of action ~ expensive, but morally correct.

The key question Gloria Galloway asks is: will these small changes work? My guess is:

    1. Many (most?) veterans, with a direct interest, will reject them and some (many) of them will vote against the CPC; but

    2. The campaign will work on the much, much larger group of disinterested Canadians.

In other words, I think it's bad policy but good politics. The CPC can afford to lose a few hundred, even a few thousand votes spread across 300+ ridings ... but they need the votes of many of the disinterested group with a general, but very shallow, fondness for vets.
 
Kilo_302 said:
Well the difficulty is mutual. Much of your above post is rhetoric and little more. There are numerous countries around the world that have national childcare programs, and these take many forms. We don't need to have federal employees run them, instead we could merely subsidize Canadian families to help PAY for daycare. Again, many options, some better for Canada than others. But ALL are better than nothing, or this tiny handout that we currently have. The economic spin off benefits are measurable and real. Not to mention the advantages that the children get in the most formative years of their lives. But you can believe what you want.

and they have if you choose to send your kids to daycare.  On the other hand my wife has chosen to stay at home and actually raise our kids so why shouldn't we share in the benefit.  The other thing is if both parents are chosing to work and send their kids to daycare then they already have additional money to help cover it.  Why should my tax dollars go to helping them both work and have someone else take care of their kids.  Give it back to me so I can spend it on my own kids.  I know - we should be happy to sacrifice the good of our kids for the good of the few that has a higher total family income than us.  How rude of us to have kids and expect to raise them ourselves.

Now the so called income splitting is a whole other thing - even with a stay at home wife we got zero benefit from it.  Must need a pretty high income to benefit from that.

 
Well I would just invite you to read the articles I posted as they address your points.
 
Kilo_302 said:
Well I would just invite you to read the articles I posted as they address your points.

Gonna have to walk me through it as I don't see the answers there.  All I see is a bunch of articles in support of daycare in various forms, none of which I have any interest in nor do I have interest in funding for others simply so they can go to work or have a day of no kids.
 
Folks, I think we're sliding this topic too much towards 'daycare' and not on the thread title.
I will be looking at splitting the day care discussion off later tonight when I have time.
For now lets get back onto 'Election 2015" please.
Bruce
army.ca Staff
 
Works for me.

and on the political side - so far I have not seen anything from any of the oppostion parties that make me want to jump and vote them in.  Everything they try to slap the conservatives for I see as the same thing the Liberals would do such as buying votes by making payments shortly before an election and the NDP I do not have any faith in benefitting me. 
 
E.R. Campbell said:
The same subject, electioneering, but in a different portfolio ~ Veterans ~ is dealt with in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/veterans-draw-election-battle-lines-over-benefits/article25595720/

I believe that there is a sound case to be made that, traditionally, since 1920, Canada has been very, some would argue overly generous with veterans' benefits. It's not surprising: we sent HUGE masses of (mostly) men to fight in 1914-18 and 1939-45 and, when they came home, they, and their friends and families, voted for politicians who promised generous benefits. Governments listened, as they do when a HUGE constituency comes calling.

I remain convinced that the New Veterans' Charter, which this (Conservative) government inherited from the Liberals was, and remains, immoral because of the way it was introduced: during a period when we had troops in combat and without "grandfathering" those already serving. In my opinion the New Veterans' Charter must be amended to provide the "old" benefits to every soldier who was serving when the NVC was proclaimed (in 2006). That is the only morally sound course of action ~ expensive, but morally correct.

The key question Gloria Galloway asks is: will these small changes work? My guess is:

    1. Many (most?) veterans, with a direct interest, will reject them and some (many) of them will vote against the CPC; but

    2. The campaign will work on the much, much larger group of disinterested Canadians.

In other words, I think it's bad policy but good politics. The CPC can afford to lose a few hundred, even a few thousand votes spread across 300+ ridings ... but they need the votes of many of the disinterested group with a general, but very shallow, fondness for vets.

Mr.Campbell, I think you are right on all counts here, and have touched on a wider philosophical issue which is significant:

In other words, I think it's bad policy but good politics.

Is this what we want from our government, of any party? 

I personally have no problems at all with this particular govt when they put out good policy - that is why we pay them, to govern in the interests of all Canadians.  Sometimes it is possible to put out good policy AND good politics, which is the ideal situation for everyone.  But if a government puts out bad policy for political reasons, then they aren't doing their job anymore. 

Please don't take this as inherently a criticism of the CPC - they just happen to be the federal government in power at the moment.  That philosophical decision/critique applies to any government in power at any level. 

Harrigan
 
>You mean, other than the 'In and Out' scandal?

"In and Out" was the party's own money.  Please play again.
 
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