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Election 2015

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Harrigan said:
So Mr.Simpson posits that because of one favourable provincial result in Alberta, the NDP should consider throwing away a policy plank that has distinguished them from the Liberals and Conservatives for years (decades)?  I would imagine the NDP recognizes that it is not likely to become the "natural governing party" on the basis of one good (provincial) result, and MMP is a far bigger gain for the NDP overall that more than offsets the potential "loss" in Alberta.

Besides, after all the recriminations after the Danielle Smith affair and the defections, I would imagine that Brian Jean would be ON the barbeque if he were to turn around and join/prop up the PC's after the election.

Harrigan


There are two problems with most proportional representations schemes:

    1. They threaten the representative nature of our democratic system, ~ wherein I (help to) pick an individual (normally from my community) who represents my community* in the House of Commons;

    2. They prop up, actually reward, the weak and unproductive political parties and movements. They detract from compromise within parties and promote
        appeasement and deal making between parties.

Both, in my opinion, make most PR schemes bad ideas. I do not believe, not for a µsecond, that Israel or Germany are more democratic than Canada just because they have PR ... but I do believe that "cabinet making" in both countries always results in disappointing compromises for everyone.

It is the second reason ~ rewarding the weak ~ that should concern the NDP, right now.

_____
* And that (communities) is what the "commons" in HoC means; the French name, Chambre des communes, is, actually, a better reflection of what "commons" means. It's not "lords" vs "commoners," it is lords vs communities, towns, villages and so on.
 
I read a good book by John Pepell titled Against Reform in which he covers most of the arguments for dramatic reform of the Canadian system (PR, recall, elected judiciary, etc).  His biggest argument is against Proporitional Representation, and his argument is quite sound.  PR strikes at the heart of two of the foundations of our parliamentary system - effective and elected government.  Our system produces winners because we want effective governments that can accomplish things, not hung minorities haggling over things.  Our system elects people to directly represent ridings, thereby producing accountable legislatures.

Not interested in anything that has the chance to make our parliament any less effective and accountable.
 
Infanteer said:
I read a good book by John Pepell titled Against Reform in which he covers most of the arguments for dramatic reform of the Canadian system (PR, recall, elected judiciary, etc).  His biggest argument is against Proporitional Representation, and his argument is quite sound.  PR strikes at the heart of two of the foundations of our parliamentary system - effective and elected government.  Our system produces winners because we want effective governments that can accomplish things, not hung minorities haggling over things.  Our system elects people to directly represent ridings, thereby producing accountable legislatures.

Not interested in anything that has the chance to make our parliament any less effective and accountable.

If we want to see why the Senate is set up as it is, we could take a close look at Ontario.  Ontario elections are largely driven by the population of the GTA.  The majority of Ontario Government decisions affect solely the GTA.  All municipalities outside the GTA are in a state of neglect.  Perhaps that neglect would not be as obvious, had the provincial government replicated the national government.
 
Here is another interesting bit of political lore, in an article that is reproduced under the fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/when-losers-have-the-right-to-form-a-government/article25566174/
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When ‘losers’ have the right to form a government

DAVID MITCHELL
Contributed to The Globe and Mail

Published Monday, Jul. 20, 2015

David Mitchell is president and CEO of the Public Policy Forum.

-----------------

It’s an essential election rule, but one that is widely misunderstood: When no single party wins a majority of seats in the legislature, the one with the largest number is not necessarily the victor. Yes, all 338 ridings in the October federal election will have winning MPs, but the outcome may not result in a clear winner with the right to form a government.

That’s because we elect parliaments in Canada – not governments – and a party leader who wants to become prime minister must enjoy the confidence of a majority of MPs.

Why is this so poorly understood? One reason is that Canada doesn’t have a simple, publicly accessible description of the conventions related to government formation, unlike Britain, Australia and New Zealand. In Canada, the rules are shrouded in secrecy and the often-opaque language of constitutional scholarship. As a result, election campaigns and their aftermath sometimes feature unnecessary debates about a single, incontrovertible fact: The House of Commons decides which party and leader has the required confidence to form a government.

Many elections in Canada have resulted in no single party holding a majority of seats. The federal contests of 2004, 2006 and 2008 all delivered minority governments, though who led them was not a foregone conclusion. Paul Martin’s Liberals successfully passed a budget in 2005, but only with NDP support for specific policy concessions. And when the roundly criticized 2009 economic and fiscal update of Stephen Harper’s Conservative minority government, combined with the possibility of an opposition coalition, inspired the Prime Minister to request a prorogation of Parliament, we were almost pushed into a constitutional crisis.

There are a number of Canadian precedents for parties forming governments without having won the most seats. In 1925, Prime Minister Mackenzie King’s Liberals won 15 fewer seats than the Conservatives led by Arthur Meighen. However, the fractured nature of that Parliament emboldened King to remain in office. More importantly, he was able to command the confidence of the Commons.

British Columbia had the most successful coalition government in Canadian history, serving from 1941-52. The Liberals and Conservatives ostensibly collaborated for the purpose of a united effort during the Second World War. But, in reality, they wanted to prevent the socialist CCF from forming a government, and the coalition was sustained well beyond the war years.

The Ontario Liberal/NDP agreement of 1985 permitted the second- and third-place parties, which together represented a majority of voters, to replace the governing Conservatives, which won the most seats but was shy of a majority. The centre-left parties aligned to defeat the Tories on a confidence vote. The lieutenant-governor then called on the Liberals to form a minority government, which they did with NDP support. And in Saskatchewan, NDP Premier Roy Romanow led a coalition government with the Liberals from 1999 to 2003.

We shouldn’t fear elections resulting in no clear “winner,” whether they lead to a coalition or an informal governing agreement. Our democracy and public institutions are impressively resilient and flexible in responding to sometimes unclear situations. Canadians need to understand this, and have easy access to the rules and conventions that determine who has the right to form a government if no single party has a parliamentary majority.

I have said, before, that there's nothing wrong, in our Westminster system, with coalitions. But, a few years ago, Prime Minister Harper mounted a brilliant, if misleading campaign against the notion of a Liberal/NDP coalition and convinced a pretty large slice of Canadians that coalition were a bad thing. They're not. It doesn't mean they are good, but they might be preferable to minority governments that try to appease two or three parties on an issue-by-issue basis.
 
The thing I didn't like about the coalition crisis of 2008 was it was "after the fact".  I would not cry foul of a coalition if, on election day, after seats were tallied, all involved announced they would go to the GG and ask to form a coalition government - if you don't do it and the minority government is formed, than go to the polls again (instead of waiting 6 weeks after as the opposition parties did in 2008).
 
Personally, my preference in the event of a hung jury, no party in the majority, is to play by the usual rules of the game.

The usual rules of the game, in my view, for a minority government are: government proposes - parliament disposes.  If the House likes what the Government proposes, Government survives.  If it doesn't - than back to the hustings.

This makes for instability, and the Government can't indulge in long term planning, although the House can*.  The restraining hand on all parties is that people don't like voting.  Parties seen to put people back in the polling booths too soon will be punished.

The only legitimate reasons for a "coalition", in my view, is if the nation faces an existential threat and normal politics must be suspended.

Britain in WW2 is acceptable.  Britain in WW1 is debatable.  I have seen nothing in Canada that has ever justified the suspension of the accepted rules.

* I would dearly love to see a cross-party consensus on Defence, Foreign Aid and Infrastructure.
 
Yet some more blatant rule breaking by the Conservatives. Not to mention the UCCB is next to useless.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pierre-poilievre-s-shirt-choice-for-promoting-uccb-raises-eyebrows-1.3160023

Civil servants are instructed to inform the public about policies and programs "in an accountable, non-partisan fashion," according to rules set out by the Treasury Board, which sets rules for Canada's federal bureaucracy.

"[Government] Institutions must not participate in, or lend support to, partisan events organized for political party purposes," according to the rules.
 
Kilo_302 said:
Yet some more blatant rule breaking by the Conservatives. Not to mention the UCCB is next to useless.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/pierre-poilievre-s-shirt-choice-for-promoting-uccb-raises-eyebrows-1.3160023
Civil servants are instructed to inform the public about policies and programs "in an accountable, non-partisan fashion," according to rules set out by the Treasury Board, which sets rules for Canada's federal bureaucracy.

"[Government] Institutions must not participate in, or lend support to, partisan events organized for political party purposes," according to the rules.
Lucky he's not a civil servant, then ....
 
milnews.ca said:
Lucky he's not a civil servant, then ....

It has more to do with this part:  Institutions must not participate in, or lend support to, partisan events organized for political party purposes
 
While I find Pierre Poilievre one of the more interesting MP's in the house, I rarely consider him to be an "institution".

 
Crantor said:
It has more to do with this part:  Institutions must not participate in, or lend support to, partisan events organized for political party purposes

Exactly. Displays of partisanship (whether it be party logos, political statements etc) are strictly forbidden at events which involve government ministries for what should be obvious reasons. No government is allowed to politicize the delivery of services, even if the service (or handout in this case) is politically motivated. The rules are clear, and to knowingly break them is an affront to democracy.

This government is in a league of it's own when it comes to these offences (spending public money on ad campaigns for programs that haven't yet been planned never mind enacted, the robocall scandal, smearing non-partisan public servants for doing their job, etc etc ), and the lengths some are willing to go to support the Conservatives out of some misguided ideology (the Conservatives don't even obey their own ideals) is truly pathetic. ANY government who abuses power like this should be tossed out, and the offenders should be put in jail (as Del Mastro, Harper's E). Full stop. It doesn't matter if it's the Liberals, the NDP or the current government.
 
Crantor said:
It has more to do with this part:  Institutions must not participate in, or lend support to, partisan events organized for political party purposes

Besides, the CBC has it all wrong in this case.  He's obviously wearing a polo or golf shirt, not a tee shirt... sheesh.  ;)
 
Crantor said:
It has more to do with this part:  Institutions must not participate in, or lend support to, partisan events organized for political party purposes

So: Was this event organized for political party purposes? In what way was it different to any other ribbon cutting? Or any other "The Land Is Strong" announcement?

 
It became "for political party purposes" when Poilievre chose to wear clothing bearing the logo of his political party. This is the issue. It might seem minor, but he's basically reminding voters that the Conservatives are giving them free money for having kids (this instead of actual child care). This is par for the course for our government though, and for a party whose supporters seem to be always worried about how their tax money is spent, it's curious that no one here seems to think it's a problem when they spend it on self-promotion.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/social-media-reacts-to-child-care-benefit-package/article25590684/?click=sf_globefb

Three billion dollars worth of government cheques were sent to millions of Canadian parents on Monday morning – just a few months shy of election day.

The cash infusions, going to roughly 3.8 million families, are due to the recent changes to the Conservative government’s universal child-care benefit.

While the MPs and Conservative cabinet ministers were touting the news across the country, Canadian parents and non-parents turned to social media with their reactions.
 
Kilo_302 said:
......., it's curious that no one here seems to think it's a problem when they spend it on self-promotion.

Obviously you are looking at the membership through blinders......or not reading many of the posts.........or both.
 
George Wallace said:
Obviously you are looking at the membership through blinders......or not reading many of the posts.........or both.

George:

We're not being sufficiently rigorous.  In the interests of ideological purity we should be calling for the reinstatement of the guillotine.  Things have gone downhill since Robespierre lost his head.
 
Kirkhill said:
George:

We're not being sufficiently rigorous.  In the interests of ideological purity we should be calling for the reinstatement of the guillotine.  Things have gone downhill since Robespierre lost his head.

Just feed them cake.
 
Kilo_302 said:
It became "for political party purposes" when Poilievre chose to wear clothing bearing the logo of his political party. This is the issue. It might seem minor, but he's basically reminding voters that the Conservatives are giving them free money for having kids (this instead of actual child care). This is par for the course for our government though, and for a party whose supporters seem to be always worried about how their tax money is spent, it's curious that no one here seems to think it's a problem when they spend it on self-promotion.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/social-media-reacts-to-child-care-benefit-package/article25590684/?click=sf_globefb

You know Kilo- you are right. I really hate it when the government gives meback some of mymoney. That is just about the worst thing any government can do....
 
SeaKingTacco said:
You know Kilo- you are right. I really hate it when the government gives meback some of mymoney. That is just about the worst thing any government can do....

;D  BAM!
 
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