Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[markppcli]

Perhaps the physical structure doesn't need to be burned down, but it certainly needs to be put up on jacks so the foundation can be replaced. The CAF/DND in my opinion has ceased to see it self as an organization that needs to be focused on preparing to fight a war if asked to. It has instead become a peacetime institution that is focused on maintaining that institution rather than creating and supporting an effective fighting force. That's how you end up with 300 soldier Battalions and a lack of key war fighting equipment, or warships that put to sea without meeting civilian safety standards or an Air Force with 40-year old fighter aircraft.

I’d argue that retention isn’t really a problem of how our army is built

 

[markppcli]

I think that's the natural conclusion if you set the scandic witchcraft aside. Looking at UK/France the two big things that I notice are

-they have the core capabilities we've divested since 2000,
-asymmetry- we actually stack up decently well (on paper) in terms of pro-rated tank quantity, but where we differ is that we have an outsized number of our primary IFV but nothing behind it (mainly due to the TAPV disaster)


UK- pro-rated
259 Warriors, 235 CVR(T), 558 Wheeled Protected Mobility Vehicles - full Bn's of 3 different mounted infantry weights, regiments of 3 different armoured weights (including tank)
France-pro-rated
276 VCBI, 1100 VAB, 108 AMX 10 RCR, 623 VBL, - again, multiple specific mounted infantry weights, cavalry weights,
Canada actual
550 6.0, 66 LRSS, 500 TAPV... - 1 weight of infantry battalion, misequipped armoured regiments hunting for a role

Apologies for drifting from the reserve topic, but I think where it becomes relevant is that if a force has an employment model includes something like VAB or Mastiff battalions, then it provides something cheaper and easier to maintain that the reserves can provide more of.

Given that the UK is trying to rationalize its protect mobility fleet I dont know that they’d share your opinion that more “weights” is better. They have expanded the number of protected mobility to make up for the retirment of the FV 432s which will be replaced by Boxer eventually. All likely hood points to Boxer replacing Warrior as well.
The VAB are being retired for the Griphon and jaguars. I don’t really know what benefits the VAB offers beyond cost. Given the option between the two I’d certainly rather be in the VCBI.

Where this relinks to the reserves for me is that the British actually have a reserve unit (7 Rifles) using Warrior, but they borrow a regular Bns for training then augment them. The French don’t use the VAB for their reserves, it equips their “light” units. Their reserves, from what I can tell, are sub units of regular regiments. Also and excellent idea.

 

[GR66]

I’d argue that retention isn’t really a problem of how our army is built

I think that there are multiple reasons the CAF has retention issues.

Demographics and cultural change are two biggies and will require the CAF to think outside the box to find ways to turn a smaller, less interested recruiting base into effective combat power. Some of @Kirkhill's novel automation solutions may be forced upon us whether we like them or not.

Poor leadership and equipment are other issues and I'd argue that those two things ARE a problem of how our Army is built. An Army built for war fighting would have good equipment and wouldn't be able to afford to hang on to poor leaders.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Simple things that could be done to increase recruiting today would be to open up more recruiting centers across the country. We closed lots of them to save money and try and do online recruiting. Well when a potential recruit has to travel over 3 hours away multiple times to sign up, how likely do you think it is you will recruit them?

I personally feel online recruiting is a disaster. Simply give the forms at a recruiting center, have the recruiter help them fill it out, then submit it. This doesn't have to be difficult, but we certainly make it so.

 

[FJAG]

Boy I'm really behind on this thread, but I think I'll start here.

For some reason after WW2 we decided each regiment was a sacred cow. Look at the history of a regiment before then and they’ll change names, roles, ect almost a dozen times. For example:

The thing actually made sense at the time because a) we had a lot of war surplus equipment b) we reduced the RegF to a very small organization and c) the concept was in the case of a war all those battalions and regiments could be mobilized, filled with recruits around their core and thus field a six division army.

The concept started to fail as equipment aged and wasn't re[;aced and we started building a large RegF army of four brigades for Korea and NATO with the equipment that still worked.

It failed even more with the Kennedy Report and the Suttie commission that started amalgamating units without any fundamental change to the structure and rationale. As units were amalgamated they didn't retain their size but, because of several factors (including financial, lack of equipment and poor training - eg snakes and ladders) they continued to shrink.

The final nail in the coffin came from changing the role of these reserve regiments from mobilization to augmentation. The fundamental idea behind keeping a "regiment" to generate a platoon or two is that you need that leadership structure to do that. Cynics and realists believe it has more to do with local politics (which was very true decades ago but is weakening)

Long story short, both the RegF and ResF systems are not fit for purpose. The RegF one because of its expense and massive administrative overhead and constipated procurement and inability to evolve and the ResF one because its ability to generate any sizeable force is severely compromised.

Both need fundamental changes. Simple amalgamation of ResF units will not work unless there is a major change to the entire structure.

Isn't part of the problem that the baby screams every time you try to change the water?

Oh, yes, Both babies.

I've been in or observed the system for some 55 years now. These are not organizations that will go quietly into the night. They need to be pulled and kicked into reform.

 

[FJAG]

Okay. I've caught up. Some additional points.

Is there a point any more? What does the Res F provide that couldn't be provided by a Reg F capable of preparing roto 1 soldiers off the streets in 6 months?

Rapid expansion. The idea of preparing roto1 soldiers only works if you limit the deployments to a single battlegroup or at most two. There may come a time when you need more or you need skill sets that aren't easily developed in six months or ... the enemy doesn't give you six months.

Since Foulkes favoured keeping the Canadian Army's Mobile Striking Force intact for the defence of North America, he recommended recruiting a separate Special Force for the Korean War.

Not to belabour the point but the Mobile Striking Force was undermanned and not capable of forming a brigade without significant augmentation in any event. The fact that there was a significant pool of veterans which could facilitate the forming of a strong leadership core made that all possible.

I’ve backed myself into a weird corner here why I don’t really think we are a well run organization that delivers good value, but I’m not of the “burn down all our structures it’s a total failure” camp either.

I'm with you. To build from scratch would take decades. But like good horticulture for a plant to flourish it might need some healthy pruning. There is much that needs pruning.

Perhaps the physical structure doesn't need to be burned down, but it certainly needs to be put up on jacks so the foundation can be replaced. The CAF/DND in my opinion has ceased to see it self as an organization that needs to be focused on preparing to fight a war if asked to. It has instead become a peacetime institution that is focused on maintaining that institution rather than creating and supporting an effective fighting force. That's how you end up with 300 soldier Battalions and a lack of key war fighting equipment, or warships that put to sea without meeting civilian safety standards or an Air Force with 40-year old fighter aircraft.

Agreed; agreed; and agreed.

 

[Ostrozac]

Simple things that could be done to increase recruiting today would be to open up more recruiting centers across the country.

But would that actually work? Something like half of Canada’s population lives in our 10 largest cities. If we can’t attract urban Canadians, then we can’t attract Canadians.

Not that I’m saying that Thunder Bay and Windsor shouldn’t have recruiting centres — it’s just that it shouldn’t be seen as a panacea.

 

[childs56]

If we committed to building up to a Brigade in Europe to be stationed there for 20 years, then you could start by sending over a small detachment to setup the base, I guessing a base in Western Poland or Eastern Germany. The advantage of Poland is likley more flexible environmental laws allowing better training, however putting it closer to threats, which is the advantage of Germany. Land is likley cheaper in Poland than Germany as well. As is labour. Reserve a good chunk of land for barracks, PMQ's and recreation facilities. Select units in Canada to provide the basic units there. So start out with a company of infantry in LAV's, with some engineering support. Slowly build our force there, adding, tanks, artillery. Likley splitting our tank force to a training Squadron here and active duty Squadron there.
I think with 5 year postings there, you find it easier to retain people as it makes for a good posting for career and family.

Within that framework I would offer Reserves a chance to Stand up a Reserve Platoon once that works out all the bugs then a Company to deploy on a 6 month/ yearly contract, all the while allowing the Reserves to Augment the Artillery, Armored, Engineers etc over there. Once you get the jobs open and available then people may very well fill them.

 

[dapaterson]

The CAF's empires need to be broken. Recruiting Centres? No. Recruiters? Yes. With access to armouries across the country.

 

[FJAG]

The CAF's empires need to be broken. Recruiting Centres? No. Recruiters? Yes. With access to armouries across the country.

Hell yes. And let's pay civilian doctors and nurse practitioners to do medicals. The CFAT looks like it should be able to be administered by virtually anyone. That leaves personal security screening. How do we streamline that?

 

[markppcli]

Simple things that could be done to increase recruiting today would be to open up more recruiting centers across the country. We closed lots of them to save money and try and do online recruiting. Well when a potential recruit has to travel over 3 hours away multiple times to sign up, how likely do you think it is you will recruit them?

I personally feel online recruiting is a disaster. Simply give the forms at a recruiting center, have the recruiter help them fill it out, then submit it. This doesn't have to be difficult, but we certainly make it so.

I couldn’t disagree more. I got back in the army in 2016, so I got to experience the recruiting system in a fairly recent sense (especially in comparison to some of our esteemed members here). I’ve also been a part of the civilian work force. Job applications are all online now, this is the new normal. Coming in to sign forms? Not really a thing, I had to do an interview and forms were signed once, everything else was online. That’s not the problem, the problem is the bottle necking of applicants at the medical stage. For what’s it’s worth I have a friend who’s son was going to join the army, the recruiting centre did the polar opposite of attracting him to the military, at the risk of being harsh perhaps we should present our best appearance at our public interface.

Within that framework I would offer Reserves a chance to Stand up a Reserve Platoon once that works out all the bugs then a Company to deploy on a 6 month/ yearly contract, all the while allowing the Reserves to Augment the Artillery, Armored, Engineers etc over there. Once you get the jobs open and available then people may very well fill them.

I think the current 25 percent works, and makes it a bit easier when there’s shortfalls. Which will happen with a play as you’d like system.

More than one/two. Pl Comd life expectancy is short in wars, as you realize. The problem really is how do they get experience in leading when you only have 40 troops more or less? Sounds like the Second World War when Inf Coys ran at 80 pers or so.

The problem is that the top heavy reserve structure is a factor of frankly aimless recruiting and then gets justified with this absurd mobilization myth.

When we send the Cdn Army to e.g. Latavia, are we prepared to immediately reinforce due to casualties? Bet not.

Have you heard of operational reserves ?

 

[dapaterson]

Hell yes. And let's pay civilian doctors and nurse practitioners to do medicals. The CFAT looks like it should be able to be administered by virtually anyone. That leaves personal security screening. How do we streamline that?

Test instruments need controls; once leaked, they are useless. There is also a need for counselling; outsourced recruiting services have had mixed (at best) results.

And there is no valid reason for the current medical system to be some cumbersome; all that's really needed is an order to the Surg Gen to (a) permit PAs to use encrypted email to send records and (b) properly man the recruiting medical office.

From some things I have heard, there would be significant challenges in using civilian medical facilities for detailed reviews.

 

[markppcli]

Hell yes. And let's pay civilian doctors and nurse practitioners to do medicals. The CFAT looks like it should be able to be administered by virtually anyone. That leaves personal security screening. How do we streamline that?

Allow the CFAT to be done online, if some one cheats on it, well hopefully that means they’ll be smart enough to open a book and find an answer later on.

 

[markppcli]

Test instruments need controls; once leaked, they are useless. There is also a need for counselling; outsourced recruiting services have had mixed (at best) results.

And there is no valid reason for the current medical system to be some cumbersome; all that's really needed is an order to the Surg Gen to (a) permit PAs to use encrypted email to send records and (b) properly man the recruiting medical office.

From some things I have heard, there would be significant challenges in using civilian medical facilities for detailed reviews.

Detailed reviews fine, but the cursory once over most people will require should be something g any doctor can fill out.

 

[dapaterson]

Detailed reviews fine, but the cursory once over most people will require should be something g any doctor can fill out.

And, in fact, most files do not go to the RMO. See: A-MD-154-000/FP-000, Canadian Armed Forces Medical Standards and CF H Svcs Gp Instruction 4000-13, Enrolment Medical Procedures.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Within that framework I would offer Reserves a chance to Stand up a Reserve Platoon once that works out all the bugs then a Company to deploy on a 6 month/ yearly contract, all the while allowing the Reserves to Augment the Artillery, Armored, Engineers etc over there. Once you get the jobs open and available then people may very well fill them.

That was done in the 70s. I recall a 'Germany Platoon' of Reservists going to serve with the Canadian BGp in Europe. I think they deployed for almost 6 months.

They were not well treated, weren't all that ready, and generally were misemployed as I recall. They came back acting like the Reg F though: bitter and twisted with alcohol problems and smoking habits

However if there were a better runway to deployment, and employment, then absolutely that could work IMHO.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Allow the CFAT to be done online, if some one cheats on it, well hopefully that means they’ll be smart enough to open a book and find an answer later on.

Absolutely a good idea. There are a multitude of ways we could drag the (currently torturous) process into the modern era that would connect better with applicants, while reducing effort for the CAF.

 

[markppcli]

That was done in the 70s. I recall a 'Germany Platoon' of Reservists going to serve with the Canadian BGp in Europe. I think they deployed for almost 6 months.

They were not well treated, weren't all that ready, and generally were misemployed as I recall. They came back acting like the Reg F though: bitter and twisted with alcohol problems and smoking habits

However if there were a better runway to deployment, and employment, then absolutely that could work IMHO.

Maybe they could be integrated into work up training at a given ration, say 1/4 as a random number, go through pre deployment training and then be employed as any other section member.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Maybe they could be integrated into work up training at a given ration, say 1/4 as a random number, go through pre deployment training and then be employed as any other section member.

Exactly, kind of like the workups for FRY and AFG.

It would be a huge motivator for the troops on the armoury floor, while providing a focus for unit level training, too.

 

[markppcli]

Exactly, kind of like the workups for FRY and AFG.

It would be a huge motivator for the troops on the armoury floor, while providing a focus for unit level training, too.

Sooo like what happening right now in Latvia then ?