Divining the right role, capabilities, structure, and Regimental System for Canada's Army Reserves

[daftandbarmy]

The answer is quite simple, those towns where the bases existed didn't want them there (property was too valuable) and they allied with the penny pinchers in government to get them moved because it was also costing the government a tonne of money to have to bug the Army out every time they wanted to train.  For example, the Brigade in Edmonton has to do a road move to Wainwright every time they want to do an exercise, this costs a lot of money.

We used to have Regiments in Chillwack, Calgary, Winnipeg and London.  Now, the only two true urban bases for the Army are Val-Cartier and Edmonton with Gagetown being pseudo-urban due to the relatively close proximity to Fredericton (I don't count Kingston as an Army base).  My prediction is you will see the Edmonton Garrison move to Wainwright sooner, rather than later.  That new maintenance building they built, which is now the largest floor hockey rink in the CAF is probably going to be the future home of the Lord Strathcona's Horse

European Armies get by just fine with having their Regiments in cities so why do we insist on doing the opposite?  I guess because it costs less, theoretically, but we are robbing peter to pay paul at the end of the day.

We could save a lot of money if we just did a lot of low-level training in town but Canadians (especially of the urbanite variety) don't like seeing soldiers with guns running around on their streets.  If you go to Europe you will often see soldiers on exercise out in the towns and villages, some locals aren't happy but you can't please everyone.  They have ranges and training areas of course but there is no reason we can't do a lot of training out in the suburbs or bedroom communities of big cities.  Just requires some staff work, appropriate clearances, waivers and a couple of hand shakes.

The grass is always greener...

I recall the British Army types literally drooling at the fact that we have our units located right next to awesome training areas. They have to send their regiments thousands of miles to do what we can do in our back yards.

And having 'jousted' for the hugely overworked training areas in the UK on a regular basis, I can tell you that being forced to do military training in a heavily urbanized area will make you go prematurely bald... like me  ;D

 

[George Wallace]

European Armies get by just fine with having their Regiments in cities so why do we insist on doing the opposite?  I guess because it costs less, theoretically, but we are robbing peter to pay paul at the end of the day.

We could save a lot of money if we just did a lot of low-level training in town but Canadians (especially of the urbanite variety) don't like seeing soldiers with guns running around on their streets.  If you go to Europe you will often see soldiers on exercise out in the towns and villages, some locals aren't happy but you can't please everyone.  They have ranges and training areas of course but there is no reason we can't do a lot of training out in the suburbs or bedroom communities of big cities.  Just requires some staff work, appropriate clearances, waivers and a couple of hand shakes.

European Armies have no choice.  The population of Europe and lack of many open spaces to have large training areas, has been the the major restriction there.  Then there was the fact that many European Armies relied on "Compulsory Service", which meant that often the local Army units were drawing on the local population for their strength. 

While there are large tracts of land used for Training Areas in Europe, they are nowhere as large as those we have here in Canada.  This is why the Germans used Shilo, the British used Suffield, and NATO trained in Goose Bay. 

We in Canada have the opposite.  Smaller population.  Large tracts of open land.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The accountants also saw that the land values of the bases like Work point in Victoria was quite significant and the political pressure to sell them off so they could be developed was significant. The right people got rich, the money received went into general revenue and likely DND got stuck with the cleanup costs. A win-win for everyone but DND. Local municipalities are doing the same with schools because of demographics, but some wise souls are pointing out "So what happens when the demographics swing back again?"

 

[Kirkhill]

Drew has a point though.

Part of it is "how do you train (what facilities are required, where, when and for how long)?"  Part of it is, when the Brits say next door,  they would probably be ecstatic to be as close to Wainwright and Suffield as Edmonton is.  Or even Calgary was.  Or Winnipeg was to Shilo, Ottawa to Pet....

Moving troops 6 hours over asphalt should not be a major logistical/planning problem.

Also, determining what can be effectively taught on-line, what can be taught in class rooms, what is necessary to train muscle memory, how long and what it takes to perform Tests Of Effective Training,  all of that is not only critical to the Reg Forces but it is also critical to how Alternate Forces (Militia/Reserves/Homeguard/National Guard/Look-Dook-Vanish) can be raised and effectively integrated into a National Defence plan.

It also would open up the question of which ranks/trades are actually training 2000 hours per year - and how they are employed when not engaged in training. 

2000 hours a year is, of course 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year.  It is also 83 days or 12 weeks a year - or a Basic Military Training course in most of the world.  After the soldier has put in his 2000 in the field on ex or on course - why does he/she need to be in Garrison?  That soldier has earned his annual salary.

All that I would require of him/her is that they show up ready to fight when the telephone rings.

 

[quadrapiper]

Our concept of Reserves does not exist in the French Army.  The Reserve Coy's in French Army Regiments are former professional soldiers that agree to remain in the army on a part time basis when they finish their contract.

A variation of the French system seems like something that the local NRD or reserve regiment platoon might be able to take on, if the CAF wanted to get somewhat better value out of the Supp Res.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Drew has a point though.

Part of it is "how do you train (what facilities are required, where, when and for how long)?"  Part of it is, when the Brits say next door,  they would probably be ecstatic to be as close to Wainwright and Suffield as Edmonton is.  Or even Calgary was.  Or Winnipeg was to Shilo, Ottawa to Pet....

Moving troops 6 hours over asphalt should not be a major logistical/planning problem.

Also, determining what can be effectively taught on-line, what can be taught in class rooms, what is necessary to train muscle memory, how long and what it takes to perform Tests Of Effective Training,  all of that is not only critical to the Reg Forces but it is also critical to how Alternate Forces (Militia/Reserves/Homeguard/National Guard/Look-Dook-Vanish) can be raised and effectively integrated into a National Defence plan.

It also would open up the question of which ranks/trades are actually training 2000 hours per year - and how they are employed when not engaged in training. 

2000 hours a year is, of course 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year.  It is also 83 days or 12 weeks a year - or a Basic Military Training course in most of the world.  After the soldier has put in his 2000 in the field on ex or on course - why does he/she need to be in Garrison?  That soldier has earned his annual salary.

All that I would require of him/her is that they show up ready to fight when the telephone rings.

This is my point, DND/Government made a choice to largely abandon urban garrisons, a choice it now has to live with.  A French style Reserve system could work in Canada, if we still garrisoned cities, we don't though so it's a non-starter.

A road move to a training area doesn't have to be purely administrative either, you could incorporate this sort of thing in to your exercises, you could even set your echelons up to reflect the distances you need to cover from garrison to the training area.  A good way to exercise the sustainment piece.

Neither way of doing business is right or wrong, each has it's own advantages and disadvantages associated with it.  It's up to the government, based off recommendations from TB, Cabinet, DND, etc... to determine which one works best for us. 

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Bird Gunner:

Just remember that when planning a larger, rapidly deployable force we have to figure on having the means available to rapidly deploy said larger force.  And I still can't figure out whose job that is.

That's why we have CONPLAN Jupiter, 1 Cdn Div HQ, etc. Realistically, we need the regular force to be ready to deploy roto 0 and could at best expect reservists to augment on a roto 1/roto 2 basis. Equipment and the training for increasingly advanced equipment requires more time than reservists are going to have available for them to become effective on without significant work up training. We maintain reserve structures whose concept comes from the mass armies of the 1850's and was optimized to produce semi-trained labour to provide numbers (such as the Prussian conscription system). Mass conscript armies no longer exist, so the reserves need to be tailored to tasks that they can handle without major training time investments (DOMOPs, one for one augmentation, etc).

 

[daftandbarmy]

This is my point, DND/Government made a choice to largely abandon urban garrisons, a choice it now has to live with.  A French style Reserve system could work in Canada, if we still garrisoned cities, we don't though so it's a non-starter.

We already have 'urban garrisons'. They are called Armouries in which we train reservists.

 

[Kirkhill]

We already have 'urban garrisons'. They are called Armouries in which we train reservists.

Once upon a time in the fabled village of Gagetown a Warrant Officer of gentle demeanour was kind enough to instruct me in the difference between cleaning and cleaned.

Just because I had spent two hours a night every night for a week cleaning the floor brass in an H-block did not mean that I had cleaned said floor brass.

Armouries are indeed places where training occurs.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We already have 'urban garrisons'. They are called Armouries in which we train reservists.

Apologies, I should have said "Urban Regulars" 

Side note:  Today I learned the value of having Class B Reservists in a specialist role.  The corporate knowledge they bring to the table having spent years in the same position is something we don't leverage enough of.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Apologies, I should have said "Urban Regulars" 

Side note:  Today I learned the value of having Class B Reservists in a specialist role.  The corporate knowledge they bring to the table having spent years in the same position is something we don't leverage enough of.

And maybe there's a good role for the reserves: preserving specialist skills put at risk by the political flavour of the month approach that is inflicted upon our poor beleaguered Reg F colleagues.

We'll take the Mortar Platoons...  ;D

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Side note:  Today I learned the value of having Class B Reservists in a specialist role.  The corporate knowledge they bring to the table having spent years in the same position is something we don't leverage enough of.

Having been both the G3 and the COS of a Div, might I suggest that this is a double-edged sword.  Sometimes "corporate knowledge" is a euphemism for resistance to change, or for that matter work.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Having been both the G3 and the COS of a Div, might I suggest that this is a double-edged sword.  Sometimes "corporate knowledge" is a euphemism for resistance to change, or for that matter work.

Absolutely, which is why they should only "advise" and never be "in charge"

 

[daftandbarmy]

Absolutely, which is why they should only "advise" and never be "in charge"

Our HR practises with regard to Class B staff are ridiculous. There are people who have been Class B SNCOs and Capts/Majs for decades in the same HQ. Sometimes in the same jobs.

You can smell the festering miasma as you approach the Bde HQ building.

There needs to be a policy of regularly turning over the people in these positions so they don't go bad, like many are now. They are generally completely unemployable in civvie street, marginally useful in Class B Commando Land, so why keep them in the Mo'?

 

[PPCLI Guy]

There needs to be a policy of regularly turning over the people in these positions so they don't go bad, like many are now. They are generally completely unemployable in civvie street, marginally useful in Class B Commando Land, so why keep them in the Mo'?

Yup.  As I told my "double dippers" in 2011, you are the people who couldn't get a job.........................in Edmonton in full boom time.

Bubbye.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Yup.  As I told my "double dippers" in 2011, you are the people who couldn't get a job.........................in Edmonton in full boom time.

Bubbye.

Now we are talking about something different though.  You're talking about a Div/Area HQ and in that case I fully agree with you, there is no good reason to have a Class B Reservist working in those organizations.

When I say specialists, I'm really speaking about places like Army Doctrine, CALWC, CFWC, etc... Where Corporate knowledge goes a long way in helping with development because it allows for the accumulation of intellectual currency, sort of like an encyclopedia of sorts that a chief/comd can draw from.

There are some advantages to using Class B folks in these organizations.  Note that I also said they should never be "in charge" and should only be used in a staff and advisory role. 

 

[little jim]

There are some advantages to using Class B folks in these organizations.  Note that I also said they should never be "in charge" and should only be used in a staff and advisory role.

I don't think we would ever have that worry. From having watched this thread over the past couple of years I sense a prevailing mood of cutting the amount of HQ. In particular reserve HQ down to the bn/rest level.

This is a bit of a tangent but if we cut all these HQ we would no doubt realize a savings that we could re-invest in the armoury floor. But at some point we have to consider that as a reservist I have to commit/donate/give all of what my real job considers my free time to the reserves. Yeah my job might not care about what I do on the weekends but my wife sure does. Now if we can all of these HQ positions that take away from the real essence of the reserves; well why pray tell would I want to join an organization that I have to devote all of my free time to, at the expense of my family, full well knowing that if I do get trained after five or six years as an officer, slightly more as an NCM, I am going to be out of a job? 

What kind of people are we going to get?  Those similar to the above mentioned that couldn't find a job in the boom times?

So I don't think having class b people in charge is an issue.....

 

[Kirkhill]

I don't think we would ever have that worry. From having watched this thread over the past couple of years I sense a prevailing mood of cutting the amount of HQ. In particular reserve HQ down to the bn/rest level.

This is a bit of a tangent but if we cut all these HQ we would no doubt realize a savings that we could re-invest in the armoury floor. But at some point we have to consider that as a reservist I have to commit/donate/give all of what my real job considers my free time to the reserves. Yeah my job might not care about what I do on the weekends but my wife sure does. .....

Amen brother.

 

[Infanteer]

Now we are talking about something different though.  You're talking about a Div/Area HQ and in that case I fully agree with you, there is no good reason to have a Class B Reservist working in those organizations.

When I say specialists, I'm really speaking about places like Army Doctrine, CALWC, CFWC, etc... Where Corporate knowledge goes a long way in helping with development because it allows for the accumulation of intellectual currency, sort of like an encyclopedia of sorts that a chief/comd can draw from.

Sorry RoyalDrew, but the "but HQ X is special" approach is how we get big HQs - everyone demands exceptions.  If places like Army Doctrine had an accumulation of intellectual currency, perhaps we'd have an Infantry Battalion manual that has been updated since the end of the Cold War.  If a reservists wants to stay in Kingston for 10 years working full time in CADTC, maybe they should join the Reg Force?

 

[Gunplumber]

I had 10 years in the regs as a Wpns Tech. I took the FRP in 95. A few years later I tried to get back in to the same trade, they told me it would take a year. I gave up. In 2010 I applied to go Int Op. They called me a couple of months ago (5 years later)with an offer, I had a choice but course was in a month, I told them I was class B and had to give my 30 days. They said tough luck. I gave up. Yeah Im staying class B.