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Discussion of Canada's Role in AFG (merged)

Ahh...Mr Staples and friends, yet again. And still unfettered by irritating things like truth. How did he get to be an "expert", anyway? And why does the media quote him?

And this silliness:

"Only a few years ago, Canadian troops were sent off to Kabul on what was billed as a peace mission. Today they're poised at the pointy edge of the bloodiest region in the country as the death toll rises."

Billed as a "peace mission" by whom? Is this country in the grips of an epidemic of mass amnesia?

What would the course of history have been if people like this had been running the show in Canada in 1939? After all, Hitler was really just a far away foreign fanatic, wasn't he? How many Canadians did he kill before we declared war on him? Did he attack Canada? Wasn't he just killing stupid foreigners who deserved it because of their dumb and backwards way of life?  Wasn't it really just an imperialist British war? Right?

Cheers
 
This is why we're there. No need for long winded diatrabes. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Muslims have stated that England will be the first country they take over!
These pictures are of Muslims marching through the streets of London during their recent "Religion of Peace Demonstration."


 
I like this one myself.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/wichman.asp
 
So whats the solution?  Cut our losses and send ALL Muslims to the ME and forbid any Muslim Immigrants?
 
pbi:
What would the course of history have been if people like this had been running the show in Canada in 1939?

The 1941 answer:

"War: The nuanced Liberal perspective"
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/007177.html

Mark
Ottawa

 
Afghan mission not deterred by tragedies: Hillier
Last Updated: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 | 12:00 PM NT
CBC News

The deaths of seven Canadian soldiers since the beginning of August are unthinkably tragic, but will not deter Canada's mission in Afghanistan, the country's top soldier said Tuesday.

"We know that risk is not reduced to zero," said Chief of Defence Staff Gen. Rick Hillier, speaking in St. John's.

"We've seen the results of that, particularly over these last two weeks."

Hillier attended a solemn ceremony in Trenton, Ont., Monday as the body of Cpl. Andrew Eykelenboom, 23, was repatriated.

Speaking to delegates to a conference of the Canadian Bar Association, Hillier said the deaths of Canadians will not prompt Canada to alter its course.

"I tell you, we are soldiers. This is our profession. This is what we do," Hillier said.

"We are in a just mission, protecting the weak and vulnerable and trying to bring enough stability and security to Afghanistan to accelerate the rebuilding and reconstruction, which — of course — is what the Taliban fear."

Hillier admitted, though, that such strong sentiments only go so far when he travels to Trenton to witness the return of fallen soldiers.

"You know, all of that — when you meet grieving parents or a young widow with young children — is actually not a great deal of comfort when you're talking to them," he said.

"But, you know what? I go to Trenton to show my respect and show my gratitude to those great young soldiers and their families, maybe trying to help inspire the families to get through the toughest days of their lives," Hillier said. "I always leave Trenton inspired by them."

About 2,200 Canadians are serving in Afghanistan, with most based in Kandahar. Since 2002, 26 Canadian soldiers and one diplomat have died in Afghanistan.
 
Here is an interesting and informative piece from Sean Maloney (RMC) from today’s Globe and Mail; it ought to be required reading for some of the Good Grey Globe’s so-called pundits, some of whom cannot refrain from demonstrating their abysmal ignorance of things military/tactical and strategic.  This article is reproduced here under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060825.wxcoafghan25/BNStory/specialComment/home
Our successes are many

SEAN MALONEY

From Friday's Globe and Mail

Canada's best-known CSIS informant, he who played a key role in uncovering the alleged Toronto terror plot, has weighed in on our Afghan mission. Declaring, "Canada out of Afghanistan, now," Mubin Shaikh asserted that no invader since Alexander the Great has succeeded in controlling the country. The implication is that Canada is but the latest invader, and therefore doomed to fail. This is a sad distortion, both of history and current events.

First, Canada's operations in Kandahar are at the invitation of the legitimate, elected, United Nations-certified government of Afghanistan. When Canada first intervened alongside other coalition forces in 2001, the illegitimate, al-Qaeda-supported Taliban regime was being opposed by numerous groups that rejected the radical Islamic program imposed on them. Coalition forces, working with those groups, removed the regime and created an environment from which a legitimate government could emerge, which it did in 2004.

Canada committed military forces to all phases of the international mission to assist the Afghan government, including Operation Enduring Freedom and the International Security Assistance Force, which hunted insurgents in rural areas, suppressed urban terrorism in Kabul, and prevented the outbreak of another civil war among victorious anti-Taliban forces.

Second, Canada's military operations are not structured for occupation or a permanent presence in Afghanistan. We are not the Soviet Union. On the contrary: Canadian operations include mentoring provincial and federal government departments, co-ordinating construction and aid efforts, training the military and police, all of which constitute working to "teach a man to fish" rather than "giving a man a fish." Our objective is to eventually leave Afghanistan, and our exit strategy depends on the Afghans having viable, legitimate Afghan institutions at all levels of society.

None of this can occur without being shielded from outside interference, in this case the Taliban, the Hizb-i Islami of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and, of course, al-Qaeda, which uses these groups as proxy fighters. This is where the Canadian military, working alongside Afghan and other coalition security forces, is critically important.

Nobody has ever succeeded in Afghanistan? The Taliban's removal is success, and the fact that violence is limited to the southeastern parts of the country is success. One does not see the same levels of violence in, say, Dai Kundi or Feyzabad. The enemy, being of Pashtun ethnicity, does not have a constituency in the other 60 per cent of the population, which consists of Tajiks, Uzbeks, Hazaras and at least five other ethnicities. And it will not have one in the near future, especially after years of Taliban abuse.

The fact that the events of 1993-96, when victorious mujahedeen groups turned on themselves, did not reoccur in 2002-04 is a major success story. The fact that these groups are currently incapable of doing so because of close co-operation between the Afghan government, Canada, Britain, the United States and Japan is also significant.

Kandahar and adjacent provinces are the prime focus of insurgent (and media) attention. How do we measure success in Kandahar, not in Afghanistan writ large? The region's main issues -- dysfunctional government, tribalism among the 17 Pashtun groupings, and a corrupt police force -- are all aggravated by outside sources from Taliban-base areas in Pakistan.

Success should not be measured by the number of Canadians killed or wounded in these actions, though this seems to be the only measurement employed by critics of Canadian involvement -- and by the enemy. Success can, in theory, be measured by a comparative body count: For every Canadian killed, we get 20 of theirs, for example. But that is not useful. It doesn't get into the heads of the enemy, which is what we must do to block them from getting what they want.

Success, in this case, should be measured by the number of children who are able to attend school and go to a clinic without fear of having their teachers and doctors assassinated. Success should be measured by the amount of taxes collected by the provincial government to pay for these activities, instead of the money going into the pockets of smugglers.

The insurgents want to impose, with force, what amounts to a 16th-century radical Islamic caliphate. Denying them this objective, which is what we are doing in Afghanistan with our Afghan partners (no matter how flawed they are), and allowing the next generation to move away from that stultifying world view is how we will succeed.

If we are unable to succeed, it will not be because the Afghan people oppose us. It will be by the Pakistani government's inability to exert control in Baluchistan and the other virtually lawless border zones, and it will be by the donors of a radical bent in the Islamic world who pay for the insurgency using zakat.

Sean Maloney instructs in the War Studies Program at the Royal Military College of Canada, and is the author of Enduring the Freedom: A Rogue Historian in Afghanistan.

Anyway, for the benefit of the lurkers from the fourth estate: stay around Army.ca long enough and even you weasels cannot help but learn something.  Now, back to the top and read it again …

 
"Cross COuntry Check-up" started about 40 minutes ago (1600E), and continues until 1800E, and today's topic is
"What's your view of Canada's mission in Afghanistan? "

Here's the co-ordinates:
Toll-free number (during the broadcast only):
1-888-416-8333

Send us your views by e-mail to checkup@cbc.ca

If we don't get our message out, nobody else will....



 
Just heard CDS is going to be on the radio later.

Here's my e-mail - let's see how much they use......

This is a situation where the reality of a hugely complex situation, that will likely take decades to
completely solve, butts up against the other reality of democratic governments seeking popular mandates for re-election.

History, tribal conflict, poverty - all these make Afghanistan's issues difficult to deal with.  Unless
they're dealt with, though, they will go back to the good old days of keeping girls out of school, and
banning music.

It's hard to envision any party, no matter what political stripe, saying, "we think this is a solution
we need for 15-20 years, and we don't care what you voters have to say about it."

The longer it goes, the more sons and daughters of Canada we see die.  The longer it goes, though, the
closer we get to a final resolution.  The political question any party in power will ask is:  can we get
the problem solved before voters get so upset over the deaths that they turf us from power?

This is not to bash democracy, but it's hard to solve problems that need decades of consistent work through solutions that can only be promoted by parties in power for only 2-5 years at a time.
 
Hopefully the CDS has some facts to counter the NDP's recent missinformation efforts: http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/49583.0.html (like the "exit strategy" and ill-defined mission notions).
 
Pity the MoD didn't see fit to take Jack and his oxymoronical defence critic with him to Khandahar to get a first hand look at what's happening.  But, I suppose it's always better to criticize from a safe armchair smewhere than actually learning first hand.

MM

.
 
medicineman - Flip side of that same coin would be, "I've been there, Mr. Speaker, and I can tell you that this government (insert NDP'esque statement here)."

Memory fails - has any Liberal politician been there?  I remember Adrienne Clarkson spending some time there, but not any politicos....
 
Touche.

I seem to remember McCallum showing up to visit us in Kabul in '03 - otherwise I can't seem to remember anyothers.

Of course, Mr O'Connor doesn't have to bring them back with him if he took them to visit with him... >:D (OOOOPS - inside voice again)

MM
 
The results are in (sort of): http://www.cbc.ca/checkup/letters060903.html
 
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