Directives to military chaplains urge expunging God, religion from Remembrance Day, public ceremonies

[Biomans]

Just like atheists who pretend they are better because they are confident in their belief there is no God... Both groups can be obnoxious.

Does the military have a problem with atheists pretending they're better than everyone else and asking for special treatment above and beyond what is offered to religious people? Are people in this thread telling others they're better than them because of their lack of belief in God? I haven't seen any of that, but I was just told my point of view is a mental weakness only suitable for peacetime thinking.

Do you agree with daftandbarmy's sentiment?

 

[Furniture]

Does the military have a problem with atheists pretending their better than everyone else and asking for special treatment above and beyond what is offered to religious people? Are people in this thread telling others they're better than them because of their lack of belief in God? I haven't seen any of that, but I was just told my point of view is a mental weakness only suitable for peacetime thinking.

Do you agree with daftandbarmy's sentiment?

I was simply pointing out self-righteousness isn't limited to religious people.

I think a lot of people make an appeal to a higher power when under stress, but I don't presume that everybody does. Also, pointing out that there are exceptions to a general rule doesn't disprove the rule.

Regardless, I'm done with this discussion. It has outlived it's usefulness.

 

[Biomans]

I was simply pointing out self-righteousness isn't limited to religious people.

I think a lot of people make an appeal to a higher power when under stress, but I don't presume that everybody does. Also, pointing out that there are exceptions to a general rule doesn't disprove the rule.

Regardless, I'm done with this discussion. It has outlived it's usefulness.

I agree, people are people and suffer from the same foibles. You can think whatever you like, but please don't then define what you think as a "rule". At least not without a lot of data.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

This whole thread lowers the collective intelligence of this forum.

 

[Biomans]

This whole thread lowers the collective intelligence of this forum.

It's pretty sad that you can look at the discourse and information being offered by people who are passionate about CAF protocol as it relates to religious accommodation and reduce it to what is essentially mindless drivel. If a forum can't be used as a place for open and honest discussion, then where should people go?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

It's pretty sad that you can look at the discourse and information being offered

When some happens I'll be all in.....

 

[Biomans]

When some happens I'll be all in.....

Going with edgy? Nice. Not helpful since people have been linking legal documents, legal cases and research papers on the topic since page 1. But you do look like a very cool cat

 

[Jarnhamar]

This whole thread lowers the collective intelligence of this forum.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I'm atheist but I still respect tradition, institutional norms and most importantly, other peoples beliefs.

Prayer and ceremony has always been an important part of Remembrance Day and an important part of Service.

Are we just going to not recite "For the Fallen" now? Or omit the toast to fallen comrades now?

When I see a funeral procession driving past me, I remove my hat and hold my hand over my heart regardless of what religion or even if any. I show respect, simple. My religious views are much more along FN views (honouring Mother Nature).

Removing your headress is more about respecting the fallen from wars and military service. When you worry about whether its violating your own religious views, your making it about yourself.

Respect the fallen.

Spot on Rick. This entire directive just shows how much a dumpster fire the Institution, under the control of the current Government, has become.

It's an unserious organization run by unserious people. I do believe a culture change is around the corner though. There is going to be a whole lot of walking backwards once the current crop are thrown out of Office.

 

[ArmyRick]

I'm atheist but I still respect tradition, institutional norms and most importantly, other peoples beliefs.

Prayer and ceremony has always been an important part of Remembrance Day and an important part of Service.

Are we just going to not recite "For the Fallen" now? Or omit the toast to fallen comrades now?



Spot on Rick. This entire directive just shows how much a dumpster fire the Institution, under the control of the current Government, has become.

It's an unserious organization run by unserious people. I do believe a culture change is around the corner though. There is going to be a whole lot of walking backwards once the current crop are thrown out of Office.

100% agreed

 

[quadrapiper]

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt.

Annnnnd there's the Imperium heard from.

---

I haven't been to a CAF-led Remembrance ceremony in years; around here, it's usually the RCL just changing the dates and names on last year's script. I very much doubt this will make any difference for the bulk of Remembrance ceremonies, and, depending on who exactly is organizing the event, might actually mean the addition of a local faith leader, if there's strong feeling that specifically religious rather than generally reflective words are wanted. This is very much a non-issue.

 

[gryphonv]

chap·lain
/ˈCHaplən/
noun

1. a member of the clergy attached to a private chapel, institution, ship, branch of the armed forces, etc.
   "a prison chaplain"

This is my take on it.

Chaplain is an inherently religious job. If the CF wants to force them to not mention God in any public ceremonies / speeches. Maybe they should just remove the job from the military and replace them with social workers.

This to me feels like another decision pushed down by someone outside the forces, looking for fixes to problems that don't exist, except in their own mindset.

 

[OldSolduer]

I was simply pointing out self-righteousness isn't limited to religious people.

Vegans and crossfitters enter the chat...

 

[Biomans]

Chaplain is an inherently religious job. If the CF wants to force them to not mention God in any public ceremonies / speeches. Maybe they should just remove the job from the military and replace them with social workers.

This to me feels like another decision pushed down by someone outside the forces, looking for fixes to problems that don't exist, except in their own mindset.

I would go to see a chaplain if I was deployed and needed someone to talk to when feeling stressed. They're essentially social workers that double as religious figures to those that need them to be. It would be a mistake to remove them. Expect I'd be hard pressed to find one who would turn me away for being an Atheist.

 

[gryphonv]

I would go to see a chaplain if I was deployed and needed someone to talk to when feeling stressed. They're essentially social workers that double as religious figures to those that need them to be. It would be a mistake to remove them. Expect I'd be hard pressed to find one who would turn me away for being an Atheist.

It is a mistake to remove them.

It's also a mistake to tell them they can't mention God.

I've personally never had an issue with speaking to any Chaplain, even one's who were not of my Religion. I respect their choice and always welcome their viewpoints.

 

[QV]

CAF continues to insult it's largest demographic for recruiting

Also CAF: "By golly, just can't figure out this recruiting and retention issue..."

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Annnnnd there's the Imperium heard from.

---

I haven't been to a CAF-led Remembrance ceremony in years; around here, it's usually the RCL just changing the dates and names on last year's script. I very much doubt this will make any difference for the bulk of Remembrance ceremonies, and, depending on who exactly is organizing the event, might actually mean the addition of a local faith leader, if there's strong feeling that specifically religious rather than generally reflective words are wanted. This is very much a non-issue.

I will be going to two ceremonies this year.

One on the 10th of November for local Reserve, as they have many Veterans amongst their community and they do their own ceremony on that day.

They have invited me as their guest and I will be participating in a smudging ceremony and dinner with them. I felt very humbled to have been approached and invited by them and am looking forward to meeting the community.

I will then be going to the official ceremony on the 11th and have been invited to participate in that ceremony as well and will be laying a wreath on behalf of my Company.

Related to the above, I think the CAF misses a lot of cues in connecting with Indigenous Peoples on Remembrance Day. I contrast what we do with what the Kiwis have done inculcating Indigenous Warrior Culture in to their actual Institutional Values and it's embarrassing tbh.

 

[markppcli]

CAF continues to insult it's largest demographic for recruiting

Also CAF: "By golly, just can't figure out this recruiting and retention issue..."

I don’t think I know a single soldier that regularly goes to church; and most I know would rather have a mental health professional to speak to than a Chaplin. An aside to this conversation but I don’t think a majority of the CAF target audience, 18-24 year olds, will be too fussed.

 

[QV]

I don’t think I know a single soldier that regularly goes to church; and most I know would rather have a mental health professional to speak to than a Chaplin. An aside to this conversation but I don’t think a majority of the CAF target audience, 18-24 year olds, will be too fussed.

Must be something in the water then. I'm sure it will all work out in the end.

 

[Biomans]

CAF continues to insult it's largest demographic for recruiting

Also CAF: "By golly, just can't figure out this recruiting and retention issue..."

To be fair... in my enrollment ceremony 4 people gave the oath of Solemn Affirmation and 1 person swore on the Quran.

Younger people tend to be overwhelmingly less religious than older generations:

"Among the population born in Canada, younger cohorts were significantly less likely than older cohorts to report having a religious affiliation and, when they did, they were less likely to consider their beliefs to be important to how they live their lives (32% of people born between 1980 and 1999 versus 48% and 62% of those born between 1960 and 1979 and between 1940 and 1959, respectively) (Chart 6). These trends, while present, were less pronounced among those born outside Canada, with older and younger cohorts being less distinct from one another."

Making the CAF less religious would increase recruitment, if it had any effect at all.