Directives to military chaplains urge expunging God, religion from Remembrance Day, public ceremonies

[Colin Parkinson]

Having well meaning words of remembrance can still hit that comforting tone, without alienating those who are irreligious.



This is just nonsensical. At no point in my career have I encountered prayers that were obviously Hindu or Muslim in nature. I certainly can't say the same about obvious Christian-derived prayers.

No one's trying to curb Hindu or Muslim practices in CAF ceremonies / events because there's nothing there to curb.

Not really it's part of a broader initiative to discriminate against Christians, while giving the others a pass. I am not personally a Christian, but it's painful obvious the discrimination, by government, media and academia. My favourite moment was at the beginning of a large FN consultation meeting the Chief was asked to bless the meeting. Much squirming in seats when he recited the Lords prayer, instead of some FN ceremony they were all expecting. This direction is just another "Brick in the wall".

 

[btrudy]

Not really it's part of a broader initiative to discriminate against Christians, while giving the others a pass. I am not personally a Christian, but it's painful obvious the discrimination, by government, media and academia. My favourite moment was at the beginning of a large FN consultation meeting the Chief was asked to bless the meeting. Much squirming in seats when he recited the Lords prayer, instead of some FN ceremony they were all expecting. This direction is just another "Brick in the wall".

This comment (and, well, this entire debate) IMHO exemplifies "To those you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

You're not discriminating against Christianity by not having it be acceptable that it be the default setting for public events. The fact that the government isn't supporting or promoting Christianity is not "painfully obvious" discrimination. It's not supposed to support or promote any religion.

 

[Remius]

The Girl Guides will no longer be participating in any Santa Clause Parades.

Any over under on how long before the CAF follows suit?

 

[Remius]

This comment (and, well, this entire debate) IMHO exemplifies "To those you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

You're not discriminating against Christianity by not having it be acceptable that it be the default setting for public events. The fact that the government isn't supporting or promoting Christianity is not "painfully obvious" discrimination. It's not supposed to support or promote any religion.

And yet we (the CAF) provide religious garb and attire to various members. Is that not support?

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Sure, but it doesn’t mention which God. Maybe Canada is a Jewish or Muslim nation?

If they referencing a Jewish/Islamic deity then they would have said Yahweh or Allah.

 

[btrudy]

And yet we (the CAF) provide religious garb and attire to various members. Is that not support?

No, that's accommodation.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

If they referencing a Jewish/Islamic deity then they would have said Yahweh or Allah.

Who is, in most Abrahamic religions, the same monotheistic "God" followed by Christians as well.

 

[OldSolduer]

Who is, in most Abrahamic religions, the same monotheistic "God" followed by Christians as well.

Its the same "God" and Islam recognizes Jesus as a prophet and the Bible recognizes Cyrus the Great of Persia as well.

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Who is, in most Abrahamic religions, the same monotheistic "God" followed by Christians as well.

Well there are only three Abrahamic religions; Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And, yes you are correct, the three religions have a common religious focal point, but the reality is that in Western society when we say "God" we are referencing the Christian deity.

 

[lenaitch]

Cultural practices are not inherently religious practices. One can stop having the government promoting the latter without needing to abandon any aspects of the former.

But they can be devilishly (intended) to separate in some cases, particularly those that are less, for want of a better term, organized. Is a smudging ceremony cultural or religious? Does it change if someone says the word 'creator'? I'm not even sure the term 'religion' is even strictly applicable to most North American aboriginal belief systems.

Many cultural practices have a religious basis or origin, even if the particular religion no longer includes it in their doctrine, and church doctrine in determined from time to time by an organized church's hierarchy.

The Ottawa Remembrance Day ceremony has traditionally heard from a Christian chaplain, a Jewish rabbi chaplain and an aboriginal elder or faith leader (I'm not sure what the correct term would be). If all religiosity were to be stripped out, would one of those speaking for all satisfy? I suggest not.

 

[Kilted]

Dude you dropped your tin foil hat.

It's actually a tin foil helmet cover, you slip it under the CADPAT one, so that no one knows that you are wearing it.

 

[Remius]

Or the various pagan traditions added to or continued through the centuries. Most western Christian celebrations are far more cultural than religious these days. Easter bunnies and Santa Claus are far more celebrated than Jesus being born or dying. And despite those things having religious origins, they are actively discouraged by the organisations that head those religions.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well there are only three Abrahamic religions; Judaism, Christianity and Islam. And, yes you are correct, the three religions have a common religious focal point, but the reality is that in Western society when we say "God" we are referencing the Christian deity.

The Malaysian Muslims got all bent out of shape when a Malay translation of the bible called god "Allah". Even the ultra-fundamentalists in Cairo Islamic University, said "No problem", yet the Malaysian persisted with saying it was against Islam and the law.

 

[Brad Sallows]

All of this is just another symptom of Canada's slow crawl away from being a multicultural nation to being an "acultural" (ie. without) nation. A multicultural nation would add things on. What we are doing is taking things away.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Stop thinking religion for a minute. What is trudeau famous for? Division. He thrives on it. Tell me this hasn't been sitting there waiting for an opportunity. Nobody just pulled this out of their ass, two weeks before Remembrance Day. Why does he like division and causing it? Have you been watching his latest scandals? He sinking like lead. Division equals distraction. How many cities and services across Canada are going to have serving Padres in attendance to lead prayers? Unless there is a DND facility in the vicinity, not many.

I'm pissed at the whole thing, but not because of religion, equality, diversity, equity or whatever this week's buzz word is. I'm pissed because my government is using religion, the military participation and Remembrance Day as a tool of government and to cover his mistakes and fuck ups.

It also serves to diminish worship. Socialists don't want religion for the masses. They want the state to be your religion.

Most people never even gave this a second thought when the media mentioned it. Mostly Serving and Veterans are upset about this.Most others could care less.

He's gotten rid of dress regs, spent millions telling us it's hard to be green and get us to live it. Sent equipment overseas that we'll never see again and cut a billion from the budget. Just another institution to trash and destroy.

I've always considered religion as something private. How you communicate with your diety is your business, NOT mine. Call your diety Fred or Fredrica if you wish, again NMB.

So, no. I’m not worried about it. Just typical behavior for our racist, misogynistic, divisive man child. The order will likey only last as long as trudeau does.

Full disclosure - I did feign huge outrage and used it as a pretence, when I wrote to hack on and bitch out the grit MP for my riding as well as another letter to the PM.

 

[btrudy]

Stop thinking religion for a minute. What is trudeau famous for? Division. He thrives on it. Tell me this hasn't been sitting there waiting for an opportunity. Nobody just pulled this out of their ass, two weeks before Remembrance Day. Why does he like division and causing it? Have you been watching his latest scandals? He sinking like lead. Division equals distraction. How many cities and services across Canada are going to have serving Padres in attendance to lead prayers? Unless there is a DND facility in the vicinity, not many.

I'm pissed at the whole thing, but not because of religion, equality, diversity, equity or whatever this week's buzz word is. I'm pissed because my government is using religion, the military participation and Remembrance Day as a tool of government and to cover his mistakes and fuck ups.

It also serves to diminish worship. Socialists don't want religion for the masses. They want the state to be your religion.

Most people never even gave this a second thought when the media mentioned it. Mostly Serving and Veterans are upset about this.Most others could care less.

He's gotten rid of dress regs, spent millions telling us it's hard to be green and get us to live it. Sent equipment overseas that we'll never see again and cut a billion from the budget. Just another institution to trash and destroy.

I've always considered religion as something private. How you communicate with your diety is your business, NOT mine. Call your diety Fred or Fredrica if you wish, again NMB.

So, no. I’m not worried about it. Just typical behavior for our racist, misogynistic, divisive man child. The order will likey only last as long as trudeau does.

Full disclosure - I did feign huge outrage and used it as a pretence, when I wrote to hack on and bitch out the grit MP for my riding as well as another letter to the PM.

I think you're seriously overestimating the degree to which the Prime Minister or even the PMO is making decisions about minor issues like prayers from the Padres and Dress Instructions.

I really doubt any of this was dictated from government. Especially the dress instruction changes; that wasn't top down, that was a bottom up initiative proposed by the Defence Women's Advisory Organization.

 

[Biomans]

All of this is just another symptom of Canada's slow crawl away from being a multicultural nation to being an "acultural" (ie. without) nation. A multicultural nation would add things on. What we are doing is taking things away.

Religious headwear and non-Christian Padres were added, unique Christian considerations not made for any other group are being removed ( that potentially violate the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, see dapaterson's link on page 1). The privileges over other groups they've enjoyed for 100 years in Canada are being equalized.

Canada looked very different 500 years ago, it will look very different from the way it does now in 500 years. Change is an inevitability until the universe reaches heat death.

 

[brihard]

I think you're seriously overestimating the degree to which the Prime Minister or even the PMO is making decisions about minor issues like prayers from the Padres and Dress Instructions.

I really doubt any of this was dictated from government. Especially the dress instruction changes; that wasn't top down, that was a bottom up initiative proposed by the Defence Women's Advisory Organization.

Indeed. Particularly given the case law quoted in the CAF instructions on this. This is an exercise in proofing CAF against litigation based on evolving case law. The CAF, as a government institution, is legally barred from taking actions that essentially promote or boost religion. While this obviously puts the chaplaincy in more than a bit of a bind, nonetheless this is law that CAF must abide by.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Indeed. Particularly given the case law quoted in the CAF instructions on this. This is an exercise in proofing CAF against litigation based on evolving case law. The CAF, as a government institution, is legally barred from taking actions that essentially promote or boost religion. While this obviously puts the chaplaincy in more than a bit of a bind, nonetheless this is law that CAF must abide by.

Since when has the CAF cared about litigation?

Maj.-Gen. Dany Fortin, acquitted on sex assault charge, settles lawsuit

Maj.-Gen. Dany Fortin has reached an undisclosed settlement in his lawsuit over how the Canadian military and federal government responded to an allegation of sexual misconduct.

www.ctvnews.ca

 

[brihard]

Since when has the CAF cared about litigation?

Maj.-Gen. Dany Fortin, acquitted on sex assault charge, settles lawsuit

Maj.-Gen. Dany Fortin has reached an undisclosed settlement in his lawsuit over how the Canadian military and federal government responded to an allegation of sexual misconduct.

www.ctvnews.ca

You’d have to take that up with the civilian crown prosecutor in Quebec who took the MP investigative disclosure and found reasonable grounds and sufficient public interest to lay a charge. While things unquestionably went sideways there, it’s not the illustrative example of your point that you think it is. Many better ones could undoubtedly be found that were entirely own goals by CAF.