Defence: $12.7-billion infusion ;D

[Zipper]

Well we seem to have two camps now. Those who think we should be optimistic, and those who still don't trust the Government even when on paper.

Its hard to say which way to go. They're saying all the right things and it looks like we'll start seeing healing in the Forces. On the other hand, I believe (ret.)Gen. Mackenzie when he said that with the money stretched out over such a period, that the money earmarked for the forces is reviewed every two years and may still disappear. So we'll just have to keep a close eye on it.

Otherwise, let the CDS do his talking (as much as I admire the man, he is a political animal now) and hope for the best, and that policy review.

FSTO - Good on you. I think the Army, Navy, Air Force idea's are dead. There is only the CAF, and we should be organized as such.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Well we seem to have two camps now. Those who think we should be optimistic, and those who still don't trust the Government even when on paper.

That has ever been the case on this forum.

Its hard to say which way to go.

Is your glass half full, or half empty?

 

[Edward Campbell]

Our glass is very much half full ... even though I am an instinctive pessimist when Canadian politicians on the scene, but:

"¢ It will be hard (politically) - not impossible, mind you, just hard - for the Liberals to back too far away from $12+ Billion over five years, even after an election; and

"¢ It will be even harder for a Conservative government to fail to provide at least as much if they ever manage to unseat the natural governing party.

But, again:

"¢ It will be easy for politicians and empire building bureaucrats and generals (and admirals, too) to waste a very large proportion of whatever funds end up in the capital budget, especially; and

"¢ It will be tempting for politicians, empire building bureaucrats and generals to get priorities mixed - it is always tempting, especially for politicians who are within range of a camera lens, to want to announce an 'new' (made right here!) this, that or the other rather than to watch the money 'drift' away on things like parts and ammo and fuel which do not have too much sex appeal.

 

[Kirkhill]

"¢  It will be easy for politicians and empire building bureaucrats and generals (and admirals, too) to waste a very large proportion of whatever funds end up in the capital budget, especially; and

"¢  It will be tempting for politicians, empire building bureaucrats and generals to get priorities mixed - it is always tempting, especially for politicians who are within range of a camera lens, to want to announce an 'new' (made right here!) this, that or the other rather than to watch the money 'drift' away on things like parts and ammo and fuel which do not have too much sex appeal

Agreed entirely ROJ.  On the other hand isn't it likely that with this transformation we are going to see a lot of "unavoidable" screw-ups and poor decisions?  Given our lack of current experience in much of the areas under consideration, the distance necessary to travel and the relatively short time involved isn't it pretty inevitable that the resulting steep learning curve is going to result in somebody somewhere making a bad decision?

Note to all concerned - this is not to argue against any proposals for change, just to point out that during change, even good change, bad things happen.  And given the nature of our press and society the bad things will be highlighted.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

  And given the nature of our press and society the bad things will be highlighted.

...because good things don't sell newspapers.

 

[dutchie]

So were pretty much in agreement that there's little chance of any Governing party backing out of the financial commitment of 12 billion.

Now if we only could figure out how to ensure that money is spent wisely.....

 

[Zipper]

Agreed entirely ROJ.   On the other hand isn't it likely that with this transformation we are going to see a lot of "unavoidable" screw-ups and poor decisions?   Given our lack of current experience in much of the areas under consideration, the distance necessary to travel and the relatively short time involved isn't it pretty inevitable that the resulting steep learning curve is going to result in somebody somewhere making a bad decision?

An example of a future screw up...              ...the MGS system.

But thats for another thread. 

 

[Brad Sallows]

The CPC will indeed have to match the Liberal ante in the next election, and the Liberals will pretend the budget is better than an election promise.  ("See?  We're not just making an election promise.  We promised it in a BUDGET.")  But WTF got into the brain stems of those of you who believe the Liberals will honour any of it if they win a majority?

 

[S McKee]

But WTF got into the brain stems of those of you who believe the Liberals will honour any of it if they win a majority?

You hit the nail on the head Brad! If Martin and his cronies ever got a majority (and lets hope that won't happen, residents of Ont/PQ wake the ####up!) CF kiss your 13B good-bye, hello Daycare, and Kyoto windmills.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I need to repeat what I said, with a wee bit of emphasis:

"It will be hard (politically) - not impossible, mind you, just hard - for the Liberals to back too far away from $12+ Billion over five years, even after an election ...â ?

The worst two situations are:

"¢ A Liberal majority which emphasizes the masculine/feminine* split in Canada - i.e. the majority is based in urban BC, the Greater Toronto Area, the 905 belt around Toronto, and Québec; or

"¢ A Liberal minority which can, with NDP support, push a leftish agenda.

In either case the Canadian economy is, without fail, going to 'slow' and it will be politically popular to shift defence spending further and further 'out' - beyond 2011, beyond, even, 2015, by which time inflation will have eaten any real gains.
----------

* I believe that Canada has become a feminine nation.   I think we, Canadians, eschew the traditional masculine forms and norms in domestic and foreign policies.   I believe the feminization began, in earnest, in 1968, when we traded, consciously - out in the open, our traditional value based culture for a culture of entitlement.   We cemented the feminization in 1982 when we became Charter Canadians, concerned, almost wholly, with our rights and privileges rather than our responsibilities.   I believe that the feminization took root quickly and firmly in the areas I mentioned above but did not find fertile ground in rural areas, especially.

 

[SlipStream]

Arnt they still waiting for the defence review before they start deciding what to spend the cash on?

 

[dutchie]

I think there is little chance of a Liberal majority in the next election. The damage done in Quebec, from my West-coast perspective, is significant. Duceppe will have to fall on his sword for the Bloc to lose significant ground there to the Grits. The Sponsorship Inquiry, I believe, will expose the CURRENT Government as liars, cheats, and above all, thieves. Martin can't hide the fact that he was the senior man in Quebec and the Finance Minister. That's just a gut feeling, but that's how I see it. Finally, the NDP have made significant gains in the last election, and I expect they will lose some ground, but not enough to give Martin the majority.

That all adds up to a slim minority for either the Liberals or the Conservatives. Which one depends on to what extent the above comes in to play, how the Same-Sex thing plays out, and whether Harper can gain ground in Ontario among the right/centre.


But yeah, if there IS a Liberal majority, back to the poor house for us.

 

[Cpl.Banks]

When I first heard the 13B dollar addition to the CF I was exstatic, then after thinking aobut it 13B doesnt seen all that much, is it an add on to our current bugdet or is that the entire budget for the Cf? The U.S's budget for defense grows every year by the same amout we are going to get in 5 years, then again the Lib will prolly bring that down every now and then and soon enought the CF wont be getting jack all...And I really do hope that dont get a majority god help us then...How about some new howitzers???  

UBIQUE!!!

 

[Baloo]

Not that much money? Jeez...and yes, it is an add on to the budget already in place.

And don't go around trying to analyze our budget next to the American one.

And don't hold you breath for howitzers. We have much bigger priorities than that.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Earth to Cadet Banks...all and all this will bring the Defence Budget up to over 20 billion a year. This is significant.  :

 

[canuck101]

We have to think long term here.  We are going to need that amount of money for years to come to build up the CAF. We all are going to have to keep the governments foot on the fire so as not to allow them to back down on promises.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>I believe that Canada has become a feminine nation.

Somewhere out in the electronic ether there is an essay which argues that:

1) Women are wired - whether by evolution or otherwise - to prefer security over liberty, and men to prefer liberty over security; and
2) The increased role of the welfare state may thus correspond to the increased role and power of women in politics.

 

[Andyboy]

>I believe that Canada has become a feminine nation.

Somewhere out in the electronic ether there is an essay which argues that:

1) Women are wired - whether by evolution or otherwise - to prefer security over liberty, and men to prefer liberty over security; and
2) The increased role of the welfare state may thus correspond to the increased role and power of women in politics.

That is a very interesting hypothesis and I would like to read that essay if you can find it. Now back youyour regular scheduled conversation.

 

[karl28]

Just wondering if the new increase to the military funding will include the purchase for the c-17 ? and the JSS ? I hope so the Cf needs that new equipment .

 

[Bin-Rat]

Well you do know that this money could COST YOU....
Now what am I talking about.. Well everyone here should know how some of the funding came into place in that the Goverment scooped 16Billion from the CFSA.. as in Canadian Forces Supernumeration Account, the account for CF member's pensions, and the RCMP I believe.. and this is a C&P froma site I will mention later...

Minister of National Defence

Annual Report on the Status of the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act

for year 2002

The Canadian Forces Superannuation Act clearly states that the Minister of National Defence must publish a full Report on the status of the Canadian Forces Superannuation Act Annually!.

It is also quite obvious that John McCallum was NOT and David Pratt is NOT sufficiently familiar with their appointments as Defence Ministers to produce and table the Report for 2002.

OR

Has someone again been dipping into the CFS Account and a Liberal cover-up is taking place?

Repeated requests of the two Ministers past and present has yielded nothing but a comment from some clerk that our correspondence will be â Å“reviewedâ ?.

One excuse for the delay has been that the Report had to be submitted to the Auditor General. That is an added step and could catch any new shenanigans by any government. However, it would appear that the Assistant Auditor General who signed off on the 2001 missed out that the total confiscation from our retirement savings would appear to now be in excess of $20 billion and. NOT the $16.6 billion authorized by Bill C-78!

Perhaps that is why the 2002 Report has been deliberately delayed until after the election when the Liberals had hoped that they would again be Canada's dictators!

In the extract from the 2001 Report that follows it would appear that the previous confiscation of the $4.2 billion was missed as there was another $16 plus billion that was gobbled up by the â Å“Fiberalâ ? Party.

Also on same page.. there is another excerp further down.... but here is the site/page to read up on it, how it is being or has been taken to court the fight to get back the Money that should belong in our CFSA account........

http://www.afp-aac.org/01_2004_E1.htm

I am not affiliated with them I found this is asearch for something else, but came across it accidently and I didn't even know of this.......
but I am Awwww'd and shocked they are getting away with it....