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Deconstructing "Progressive " thought

>Sorry, which party is seriously trying to cut spending?  Don't say the Republicans, or I'll spit this mouthful of coffee all over my keyboard.

If you deny that the Republicans are seriously trying to cut spending, I can't imagine why I should be able to accept anything you ever write again without independent verification - you have just de facto announced your intention to lie.  You may think that the level of spending cut is not "serious" enough, but you can not deny they are serious in their attempts to achieve some spending cuts.
 
>Let's not forget it was primarily Republican policies that have created most of the massive debt that the USA is grappling with

Back when we discussed the roles of the presidential administration and Congress of the US in matters fiscal, I thought you understood.  Apparently not.
 
Brad Sallows said:
>Sorry, which party is seriously trying to cut spending?  Don't say the Republicans, or I'll spit this mouthful of coffee all over my keyboard.

If you deny that the Republicans are seriously trying to cut spending, I can't imagine why I should be able to accept anything you ever write again without independent verification - you have just de facto announced your intention to lie.  You may think that the level of spending cut is not "serious" enough, but you can not deny they are serious in their attempts to achieve some spending cuts.

Republicans have offered no real workable ways forward at all (neither, incidentally, have the Democrats especially), and part of that is, I believe, because they have no incentive to do so, the worse they can make the current adminstration look, the better.

I should be clear, they have indeed offered ideas on spending cuts, but none of them that I know of have gotten up and talked about massive cuts to the defense budget, nor about serious and workable tax reform, nor about any real efforts to cut spending.  These are the people who tried to frame an attack on women's health in defunding Planned Parenthood as some kind of major savings when the amount involved is trivial.

Where's their plan to stimulate the economy?  To create jobs?  To do all the stuff they claimed they were going to do when they won the House in 2010?
 
Brad Sallows said:
>Let's not forget it was primarily Republican policies that have created most of the massive debt that the USA is grappling with

Back when we discussed the roles of the presidential administration and Congress of the US in matters fiscal, I thought you understood.  Apparently not.

And as we discussed there, I find it richly amusing that the President gets credit when it suits people (witness the Cult of Reagan) but not when it doesn't.  Who, exactly, are the GOP going to attack in the 2012 campaign?  I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count.
 
The Ryan budget (passed by the House) makes long term spending cuts; not nearly enough by any means, but certainly better than the Democrats, who have failed to propose or pass a budget at all...

There is no plan to "stimulate" the economy (we have already seen how that worked) nor "create" jobs (since that is neither the purpose of government, nor even possible in any realistic sense except for temporary jobs that end when the "stimulus" dries up), rather a series of plans to address the short and long term structural problems caused by out of control spending.

A structural reform of the tax system would be nice, since even that notorious neocon John F Kennedy recognized that dramatic tax cuts caused the economy to grow (the "Go Go 60's" were ushered in by Kennedy's tax cuts; all that wealth was consumed by LBJ's "Great Society" programs); but fixing the foundation needs to come first.
 
Substitute terms like "Hidden Agenda" and "Scary Steven Harper" and the piece would read for our situation as well. The Progressive era is ending (As Margaret Thatcher said, you do run out of other people's money), but they will certainly fight to the last taxpayer to maintain their perques and privilages before they are swept away:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903520204576484303256286950.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion#

Civility: the Denouement

By JAMES TARANTO
Did Vice President Biden liken Tea Party Republicans to terrorists in a meeting with House Democrats? Eyewitnesses say yes, but he denies it, Politico reports:

Biden was agreeing with a line of argument made by Rep. Mike Doyle (D-Pa.) at a two-hour, closed-door Democratic Caucus meeting.

"We have negotiated with terrorists," an angry Doyle said, according to sources in the room. "This small group of terrorists have made it impossible to spend any money."

Biden, driven by his Democratic allies' misgivings about the debt-limit deal, responded: "They have acted like terrorists."

Biden's office initially declined to comment about what the vice president said inside the closed-door session, but after Politico published the remarks, spokeswoman Kendra Barkoff said: "The word was used by several members of Congress. The vice president does not believe it's an appropriate term in political discourse."
Whether Biden said it or not, all parties seem to agree that Doyle and perhaps other House Democrats did. And plenty of prominent elite liberals have sounded the theme. It's become commonplace on the opinion pages of the New York Times, where Joe Nocera rants:

You know what they say: Never negotiate with terrorists. It only encourages them. These last few months, much of the country has watched in horror as the Tea Party Republicans have waged jihad on the American people. . . . Their goal, they believed, was worth blowing up the country for, if that's what it took. . . . For now, the Tea Party Republicans can put aside their suicide vests. But rest assured: They'll have them on again soon enough.

Last Wednesday Thomas Friedman described the Tea Party as the GOP's "Hezbollah faction." The same day Maureen Dowd approvingly quoted "some Democrats" as describing the Tea Party as "the Republican 'Taliban wing.' " (In fairness we should note that the Times's Roger Cohen registered a partial dissent: "Hatred of Muslims . . . is a growing political industry. It's odious, dangerous and racist.")

And it's not just the Times. NewsBusters.org quotes liberal Bloomberg columnist Margaret Carlson: "There's a nihilist caucus which is, 'Listen, we want to burn the place down.' I mean, they're not, they've strapped explosives to the Capitol and they think they are immune from it." NewsBusters also notes a cartoon from David Fitzsimmons of the (Tucson) Arizona Daily Star depicting President Obama ordering Navy SEALs to stage a bin Laden-style raid on the House side of the Capitol.

Politico itself got into the act, running two op-eds last week on the theme: "The Tea Party Taliban" by Martin Frost (a Democratic ex-congressman) and "The Tea Party's Terrorist Tactics" by William Yeomans, former chief counsel to Sen. Ted Kennedy. Mary Jo Kopechne's former chief counsel could not be reached for comment.

Hey, what ever happened to civility?

That's not a rhetorical question. Back in January, after a madman shot Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and a crowd of her constituents, gravely wounding her and killing six, the liberal elite briefly developed an obsession with the supposed dangers of uncivil political rhetoric.

Before a suspect had even been identified, as we noted Jan. 10, Fitzsimmons, the Tucson cartoonist, was on CNN blaming "the right in Arizona" for "stoking the fire of heated anger and rage" and making the attack "inevitable." Fitzsimmons later apologized, but former Enron adviser Paul Krugman did not. Sources inside Krugman's head told him that the Tea Party dunnit:

For those wondering why a Blue Dog Democrat, the kind Republicans might be able to work with, might be a target, the answer is that she's a Democrat who survived what was otherwise a GOP sweep in Arizona, precisely because the Republicans nominated a Tea Party activist.

These stories were false--which didn't stop the Times from publishing an editorial scapegoating conservatives for the Tucson shooting after it was clear the suspect had no recognizable political motive. And Krugman not only did not apologize for his error but dowdified a quote from Rep. Michele Bachmann so as to charge her falsely with employing "eliminationist rhetoric."

There were many other examples, including Hendrik Hertzberg of The New Yorker, who complained of "shocking vituperation and hatred, virtually all of it coming from people who call themselves conservatives." When his fellow liberals falsely accused conservatives of mass murder, Hertzberg was unshocked. Newsweek's Jonathan Alter had Giffords's future all planned out:

Sad to say, if Giffords had died, she would have been mourned and soon the conversation would have moved on. But Giffords lives, thank God, which offers other possibilities. We won't know for weeks or months whether she can function in public. If she can, she will prove a powerful referee of the boundaries of public discourse--more influential, perhaps, than the president himself.

Then it was February, and the liberal elite lost all interest in policing "the boundaries of public discourse." The faux goo-goo group Common Cause held a rally where participants urged the lynching of Supreme Court justices. Liberals--including at least one Democratic congressman--employed actual violent rhetoric against Wisconsin's Gov. Scott Walker, whose state budget reforms stripped government employee unions of many of their expensive privileges.

And now, of course, all of liberaldom is likening the Tea Party to terrorists. But really, that message is entirely consistent with the one in January, and indeed with the message the liberal elite has been propagating since the early days of the Obama administration: that the Tea Party is illegitimate.

"Terrorist," "racist," "uncivil," "insane," the list goes on--in this context, these words have no real meaning. They are mere epithets. The Obama presidency has reduced the liberal left to an apoplectic rage. His Ivy League credentials, superior attitude, pseudointellectual mien and facile adherence to lefty ideology make him the perfect personification of the liberal elite. Thus far at least, he has been an utter failure both at winning public support and at managing the affairs of the nation.

Obama's failure is the failure of the liberal elite, and that is why their ressentiment has reached such intensity. Their ideas, such as they are, are being put to a real-world test and found severely wanting. As a result, their authority is collapsing. And if there is one thing they know deep in their bones, it is that they are entitled to that authority. They lash out, desperately and pathetically, because they have nothing to offer but fear and anger.
 
The problem the Progressives in the Democrat Party have is that they now have an equally engaged and vociferous Counter-Caucus in the GOP to balance them.

In the past the Progressives fought on both financial and social fronts.  The main effort was the financial front.  The social front was less critical to the cause.  The "conservatives' wasted their effort fighting the social battle while the Progressives ratcheted the financial debate to the left. 

Now the GOP has traded in social conservative activists for fiscally conservative activists.  This has thrown the Democrats, Republicans and Progressives off balance.  The left know how to demonize social conservatives but they don't know how to demonize fiscal conservatives - although they are trying. 

I believe they will have trouble finding traction however as "most" Americans are comfortably on the fence on most social issues - live and let live is the working motto.  But on fiscal issues "most" Americans are actively engaged in feeding themselves and paying taxes.  They are paying attention to this debate.

The "Tea Party" has won simply by changing the course of the debate and putting a plug in the flow.  Whether the effect is lasting, or results in a catastrophic financial or political blow out, remains to be seen.......

Great spectator sport.  ;D
 
While the TEA party movement has focused on crony capitalism and the political culture, another movement is planning to protest Wall Street (in a literal manner). This smacks of magical thinking and a total lack of understanding of either how the economy works or even some very basic economic concepts (if Wall Street were to physically be shut down, what would stop the economic activity from moving at light speed to the London Exchange, the TSX, Chicago Mercentile Exchange, Hong Kong, etc. etc.?).

The other thing it seems intended to do is to reestablish the "Narrative" of evil capitalists exploiting the working class meme. Is it "Spontanious"? All indications would suggest it is more of an astroturf ploy like the "Coffee Party" and other faux groups set up to press Progressive tropes by pretending they were grassroots organizations. How this plays out should be fun and interesting to watch:

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/mimssbits/27067/?nlid=nldly&nld=2011-08-10

Is September 17 America's Own Tahrir Square-Style 'Facebook Revolution'?

Protests in the Middle East and elsewhere capitalized on the spontaneity of social media, but can it also be deployed deliberately?

By Christopher Mims

Starting September 17, the publishers of Adbusters want 20,000 people take over Wall Street for months, until their demands are met. The campaign's nerve center urges protestors to "set up tents, kitchens [and] peaceful barricades," apparently in anticipation of settling in for the long haul.

This isn't a weekend protest -- it's an attempt to launch a Tahrir Square-style occupation.

On Facebook, Twitter and Reddit, the protest's organizers are trying to whip their followers into a frenzy. Logistics are being coordinated; social pressure is mounting. Will people respond? Will #occupywallstreet rank as a trending topic on Twitter? Will this loose coalition of young people pick up allies among disaffected, under- and unemployed members of the middle class?

For a million reasons, from Americans' seeming learned helplessness to the organizational skills of the NYPD, it seems inconceivable that the folks behind this protest will pull it off. If it happens, technology will not be an enabler, it will be the enabler. Unlike protests in Egypt and riots in London, there are no temporally distinct precipitating events for America's still non-existent protest movement.

There isn't even a clear purpose for the protests, yet -- in typical Internet fashion, the "one demand" of protesters" is still being crowdsourced. (As of this writing, "revoke corporate personhood" is leading by a wide margin, and "abolish capitalism" is a distant second.) There is, however, exactly the sort of steady, grinding economic agita that has inspired protests elsewhere in the world.

America tried to avert an economic catastrophe, and it's possible we failed -- that all the quantitative easing in the world can't stop the algorithmic traders on Wall Street from crashing the pensions of whichever Americans still believed they possessed any wealth. Is that enough to inspire 20,000 people to show up in downtown Manhattan after having encountered one another nowhere but the Internet? Looks like we've got a month to find out.
 
Thucydides said:
While the TEA party movement has focused on crony capitalism and the political culture, another movement is planning to protest Wall Street (in a literal manner). This smacks of magical thinking and a total lack of understanding of either how the economy works or even some very basic economic concepts (if Wall Street were to physically be shut down, what would stop the economic activity from moving at light speed to the London Exchange, the TSX, Chicago Mercentile Exchange, Hong Kong, etc. etc.?).

:facepalm:

Was this intended as some kind of joke?  The Tea Party is a product of crony capitalism - it's a completely faked astroturf movement designed to protect crony capitalism, and its supporters, by and large, are simply too stupid to realize that.  Snippets of the embarrassment of a "debate" held in Ames the other night rather clearly indicates their darlings like Michele Bachmann have no grasp whatsoever of economics and a delusional view of the world.  I think there's enough there in soundbites, hopefully, to keep any of the GOP "frontrunner" clowns out of office.

Thucydides said:
The other thing it seems intended to do is to reestablish the "Narrative" of evil capitalists exploiting the working class meme. Is it "Spontanious"? All indications would suggest it is more of an astroturf ploy like the "Coffee Party" and other faux groups set up to press Progressive tropes by pretending they were grassroots organizations. How this plays out should be fun and interesting to watch:

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/mimssbits/27067/?nlid=nldly&nld=2011-08-10

I don't know how familiar you are with history, but you ought to look into roots of things like the French Revolution, where the rich keep on getting richer and the poor keep paying the bills.  Eventually there's some breaking point.  I don't know where that lies in the US exactly, but as more and more of those "working class" types see their American Dream slip away while those in power suffer not, eventually there will be tensions.
 
Thucydides said:
While the TEA party movement has focused on crony capitalism and the political culture, another movement is planning to protest Wall Street (in a literal manner). This smacks of magical thinking and a total lack of understanding of either how the economy works or even some very basic economic concepts (if Wall Street were to physically be shut down, what would stop the economic activity from moving at light speed to the London Exchange, the TSX, Chicago Mercentile Exchange, Hong Kong, etc. etc.?).

The other thing it seems intended to do is to reestablish the "Narrative" of evil capitalists exploiting the working class meme. Is it "Spontanious"? All indications would suggest it is more of an astroturf ploy like the "Coffee Party" and other faux groups set up to press Progressive tropes by pretending they were grassroots organizations. How this plays out should be fun and interesting to watch:

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/mimssbits/27067/?nlid=nldly&nld=2011-08-10

So the group that just destroyed the American economy to protect rich people from taxation are the good guys. Those who think that the 12+% of GDP taken by financial services is excessive(used to be around 2%) are the bad guys.

Luckily our PM saw through the Tea Party stupidity and is following sound right wing policies of fiscal Conservatism.
 
Thuc's got a pretty fair grip on history Redeye.  It is just that you and he have different filters. 

You're younger and haven't lived as long as he and I have with people peddling the same solutions to the world's woes while we observed a distinct lack of progress in changing the course of civilization.

The old saw about insanity applies:  We would be insane to continue to support the repeated application of failed policies.  Better by far to try something different, observe the effect and adjust as and if necessary.

And Nemo888 - I don't want to get into a good guy/bad guy debate but I would point out that given the role of the US in the international financial market, where it is in reality a "virtual" chest of gold, where it prints money based on that, where it draws much of its balance of trade from the transfer of funds and the supply of financial services - it doesn't seem to me that a 12% stake of the financial services in the GDP is particularly surprising or remarkable.
 
The Tea Party is still an embarrassment to conservatism. Linking the future of the Republican Party to these religious extremists with little education or sound rational capabilities was a huge mistake. The intellectual wing of the party is gone and rational debate with it. Without the thesis and antithesis of left and right making pragmatic, rational decisions the US will fail. Look at Germany if you want to see how well this works. Socialist Angela Merkel is a great example of what kind of economy you can get if you think about results and not dogma. I hate to break the news but neither left or right is perfect. Each needs the other to make livable societies. Those with a balance of both do the best. Go too far towards extremism and it all falls apart.
 
You might PM some of the TEA Party movement menbers of Army.ca to get an understanding of what they are really about. Few Religious of social conservatives are members (because the TEA Party movement is about the reduction of State interference in people's personal lives and choices), while registered Democrats are part of the movement.

Simply quoting the MSM and politiian's "Narrative" about the TEA Party movement suggests a lack of interest or understanding of the subject. Since the movement is set to topple thier construct of privilage and power, you can certainly expect to see a great deal of resistance from politicians, their cronies and enablers.

WRT the French revolution, once again a real understanding of history is important. The reson the French Revolution was different was the battle was not the "poor" against the "Rich"; rather the newly emerging Middle Class of merchants and professionals was fighting to protect their new wealth and political privilage against the Aristocracy which was determined to crush the Middle Class and retain their ancient powers and privilages. (Sounds familier when you put it that way). Read The coming of the French Revolution for more details.
 
Nemo888 said:
The Tea Party is still and embarrassment to conservatism. Linking the future of the Republican Party to these religious extremists with little education or sound rational capabilities was a huge mistake. The intellectual wing of the party is gone and rational debate with it. Without the thesis and antithesis of left and right making pragmatic, rational decisions the US will fail. Look at Germany if you want to see how well this works. Socialist Angela Merkel is a great example of what kind of economy you can get if you think about results and not dogma. I hate to break the news but neither left or right is perfect. Each needs the other to make livable societies. Those with a balance of both do the best. Go too far towards extremism and it all falls apart.

You do know that there are Tea Party members here as forum members right? They also don't fit any of the ridiculous pigeon holes you just blew out of your ass.
 
Nemo888 said:
The Tea Party is still and embarrassment to conservatism. Linking the future of the Republican Party to these religious extremists with little education or sound rational capabilities was a huge mistake.

Definition of stupid people - those who do not agree with you?
 
Thucydides said:
You might PM some of the TEA Party movement menbers of Army.ca to get an understanding of what they are really about. Few Religious of social conservatives are members (because the TEA Party movement is about the reduction of State interference in people's personal lives and choices), while registered Democrats are part of the movement.

Given that I enjoy sparring with them in various forums, I'm going to have to strongly disagree.  In fact one of the greatest ironies of the movement is that these people who oppose "state interference" tend by and large (though by no means exclusively) to be xenophobic, Islamophobic (to a laughable, sickening, paranoid kind of way), and evangelical Christians.  Their frontrunners in office and the Presidential race are included in this group.  To claim otherwise simply doesn't mesh with reality.

Thucydides said:
Simply quoting the MSM and politiian's "Narrative" about the TEA Party movement suggests a lack of interest or understanding of the subject. Since the movement is set to topple thier construct of privilage and power, you can certainly expect to see a great deal of resistance from politicians, their cronies and enablers.

And their replacement with another batch of cronies and enablers.  How does that stand to make anyone any better off, especially given that the Tea Party's ideas seem rather delusional?

Thucydides said:
WRT the French revolution, once again a real understanding of history is important. The reson the French Revolution was different was the battle was not the "poor" against the "Rich"; rather the newly emerging Middle Class of merchants and professionals was fighting to protect their new wealth and political privilage against the Aristocracy which was determined to crush the Middle Class and retain their ancient powers and privilages. (Sounds familier when you put it that way). Read The coming of the French Revolution for more details.

It does sound familiar, because that's actually a more articulate explanation of the situation I was describing.  The middle class is seeing their way of life slipping away, and some of them are being duped into supporting the Tea Party, whose masters are actually the very root of the problem.  The assault on democracy as we know it that is unfolding is a serious problem, and hopefully people are starting to notice.
 
Since you are obviously not willing to study or understand the TEA Party movement (or even apparently to speak to their members available here on Army.ca), I will treat any future postings from you on the subject with the attention it deserves.

For those of you who know my libertarian leanings, it should interest you to know my favorite reference to the French Revolution was written by a Marxist of all people. The French Revolution is one of the few times that the Class Struggle argument actually tracks with the facts at hand, the obvious issue of there being three classes rather than two, or the fact the newly emergent middle class of the Revolutionary period would self organize to fight for their rights and privileges  in opposition to the  aristocracy and the poor are issues Georges Lefebvre was willing to cover, to his considerable credit.

For people willing to delve deeper into the issue, Victor Davis Hanson's book "The Other Greeks" looks at a similar reorganization of society as middle class farmers and landowners developed the institutions we recognize today as Classical Greece. Even the chosen form of ancient Greek warfare (a massed Phalanx of heavily armoured Hoplites) was specifically evolved to protect the armed citizen farmers from aristocratic cavalry (armed with javelins) or light troops from the lower classes, who could not afford armour and only attack with missile weapons. The fact it worked against the Persians and was useful until the time of Alexander III ("the Great") demonstrates its military utility; most of our political institutions and ideals are also evolved from Classical Greek ideas.
 
I have to agree with you Thucydides.

Those that can't attack the policies, attack the people.

Those that attack a group, because they have no other avenue, as xenophobic, Islamophobic (to a laughable, sickening, paranoid kind of way), and evangelical Christians have already lost.

Unfortunately, this same sad, misinformed and delusional group are losing their way. They are now moving from making, or proposing policy, to attacking individuals on the other side.

It's all over. The great socialist experiment proposed by Trudeau and his communist ilk, is dead in the water.

People are going to start taking back what is their's.

The socialist members of the liebrals and NDP have shot their last wad. Most have grown up, started earning a wage, and become Conservatives.

Make no mistake. There will be riots and condemnation, similar, if not worse than Britian. This will happen when the Government says " We're not paying you to sit in the pub all day or fuck about at the track because we feel bad you pissy pricks can't find a job.

The day of the slack jawed freeloader is coming to an end.

Riots? Who cares. Long term gain for short term pain.
 
I'm sure this has been covered before but I'm going to circle the mulberry bush one more time:

Those that crave leaders can't seem to perceive of leaderless "movements".

I'll need to try and find out how much time the Stewarts spent trying to locate the leadership of the Covenanters, or the Guise spent searching out the leaders of the Calvinist/Huguenots/Frondes/Cevennes..... before it dawned on them that every individual opponent was a separate "leader".
 
Dennis Ruhl said:
Definition of stupid people - those who do not agree with you?

How about someone who knowingly gets around site protocols to post thinking he can get away with it?

Buh bye glue bag.

The Army.ca Staff
 
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