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Deconstructing "Progressive " thought

It has been noted in the past (and I am sure even somewhere upthread on this page) that many ideologies have elements which mimic religions. Essentially these common factors can be distilled into a core belief system which cannot be challenged (and indeed must be implemented for the "common good"), the branding of dissent or opposition to the core beliefs as "heresy" and the approval of using any means necessary to spread the belief.

A look at the history of the more pathological "brands" of Socialism (especially Bolshevikism and Maoism, world champions in mass murder) or more modern versions of collectivist thought (particularly the more virulent types of Green ideologies) brings us to many of the same ends as intolerant religions in the past
 
Technoviking said:
Though I agree that "Men do evil completely and cheerfully", but I would offer that religion isn't the only game in town.  Witness the period 1930-ish to 1945-ish.  Hitler, Tojo and Stalin were anything but religious people leading religious regimes.

Hitler was very religious, a Catholic in fact, though he warped it to suit his on interests.  Ever see a Nazi belt buckle?  With "Gott Mit Uns" on it?  Similarly, Tojo and and the entire Empire of Japan had a culture built around the Shinto religion.  While Stalin puffed his chest about state atheism in the USSR, when the chips were down, he harnessed religious ideals and loosened restrictions on the Russian Orthodox Church to help reinforce nationalism.

Technoviking said:
(As an aside, I mentioned this once to a guy, who came back and said "Hitler was a Roman Catholic".  Perhaps he was baptised as such as an infant, and perhaps he went to mass and did his sacraments and the like growing up, maybe, but as Führer of the German Empire, he never once even pretented to be spreading "the Gospel according to Adolf")

Unfortunately, this argument in no way undermines the fact that Hitler was religious, repeatedly referred to himself as a Catholic, and that Mein Kampf is liberally drenched in Christian references.  Now, granted, it's normally the case that people have to repudiate the oft-trotted out claim that Hitler was an atheist - in this case, I have no problem saying "no, he wasn't a model Catholic", but so suggest religion had no role in his misdeeds is demonstrably false.
 
Redeye said:
Hitler was very religious, a Catholic in fact, though he warped it to suit his on interests.  Ever see a Nazi belt buckle?  With "Gott Mit Uns" on it?  Similarly, Tojo and and the entire Empire of Japan had a culture built around the Shinto religion.  While Stalin puffed his chest about state atheism in the USSR, when the chips were down, he harnessed religious ideals and loosened restrictions on the Russian Orthodox Church to help reinforce nationalism.

Unfortunately, this argument in no way undermines the fact that Hitler was religious, repeatedly referred to himself as a Catholic, and that Mein Kampf is liberally drenched in Christian references.  Now, granted, it's normally the case that people have to repudiate the oft-trotted out claim that Hitler was an atheist - in this case, I have no problem saying "no, he wasn't a model Catholic", but so suggest religion had no role in his misdeeds is demonstrably false.


In fairness, the "Gott Mit Uns" symbol predates Hilter and the Nazis; it was used in the old German Empire, too.

gmu1.jpg

World War I Imperial German belt buckle.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
In fairness, the "Gott Mit Uns" symbol predates Hilter and the Nazis; it was used in the old German Empire, too.

gmu1.jpg

World War I Imperial German belt buckle.

The Prussian Order of the Crown was Prussia's lowest ranking order of chivalry, and was instituted in 1861. The obverse gilt central disc bore the crown of Prussia, surrounded by a blue enamel ring bearing the motto of the German Empire "Gott Mit Uns".

At the time of the completion of German unification in 1871, the imperial standard bore the motto "Gott mit uns" on the arms of an Iron Cross. Imperial German 3 and 5 mark silver and 20 mark gold coins had "Gott mit uns" inscribed on their edge.

German soldiers had "Gott mit uns" inscribed on their helmets in the First World War. To the Germans it was a rallying cry, "a Protestant as well as an Imperial motto, the expression of German religious, political and ethnic single-mindedness, or the numerous unity of altar, throne and Volk".

And as shown above was used on belt buckles as well.
 
It seems opinions on Hitler's religious beliefs are like a..holes. Everybody has one.

I googled Nazi Religious Belief and found a variety of opinions. Without including any Wikipedia entries here are four sites with fairly typical views.

http://www.bede.org.uk/hitler.htm

http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/tp/AdolfHitlerQuotesGodReligion.htm

http://histclo.com/act/rel/hist/rh-nazi.html
 
toyotatundra said:
Sorry, my experience is with forums that had a different set of moderating rules. I will work to adapt.

The subject of starting a thread is not an issue here and never was. It is your history here that is the issue. Our moderating rules are designed to reduce the static and white noise of troublesome posters.

If you find our rules to difficult to maintain, without the negative impact you've brought on yourself, perhaps you'd be more comfortable back at your other forums.

Milnet.ca Staff

Aplogies to the others for the tangent.
 
Old Sweat said:
It seems opinions on Hitler's religious beliefs are like a..holes. Everybody has one.

It's certainly not a clear subject with a cut and dried answers.
 
I can't stand the way in which Hitler is employed in order to win political arguments. The most glaring recent example has to be Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism, in which American liberals are slimed for being like Hitler.

The whole game is disgusting because it is so dishonest. Sure, there are elements of American liberalism which are "like Hitler". However, there are many elements of modern liberalism which are absolutely nothing like Hitler.

Hitler was a socialist. Hitler smashed the unions.

Hitler invaded countries pre-emptively. Hitler was close to the Muslims.

Hitler attacked Christians. Hitler was close to the Catholic Church.

It doesn't matter what agenda one is promoting. Nazism gives a pile of mud to sling.
 
toyotatundra said:
I can't stand the way in which Hitler is employed in order to win political arguments. The most glaring recent example has to be Jonah Goldberg's Liberal Fascism, in which American liberals are slimed for being like Hitler.

Jonah Goldberg is an idiot, and that book is just a brutal hackjob for people who lack the ability or willingness to actually look deeper into their history or anything else to actually assess his claims.  Most of what he uses to support his case is glaring cases of quotemining.  It's part of a very disturbing effort in the US to move any sort of undesirable political ideology to "the left", conflating various wildly different ideologies while suggesting that the American right is some sort of virtuous ideal.  It isn't.
 
Redeye said:
Most of what he uses to support his case is glaring cases of quotemining.

Haha, quote mining. That is a fantastic term that I've never heard before.

It's part of a very disturbing effort in the US to move any sort of undesirable political ideology to "the left", conflating various wildly different ideologies while suggesting that the American right is some sort of virtuous ideal.  It isn't.

In fairness, both sides of the aisle engage in such misrepresentation.

In the lead up to the Iraq War, there were no shortage of anti-war activists comparing Bush to Hitler.
 
>Jonah Goldberg is an idiot, and that book is just a brutal hackjob for people who lack the ability or willingness to actually look deeper into their history

Have you read it?  If you have, I think you misunderstood it.
 
Perhaps Toyotatundra might try looking up where the term "Liberal Fascism" comes from. It was quotemined from a speech by H.G. Wells:

Excerpts from H.G. Wells Speech to the British Young Liberals organization in 1932:

“We have seen the Fascisti in Italy and a number of clumsy imitations elsewhere, and we have seen the Russian Communist Party coming into existence to reinforce this idea…I am asking for a Liberal Fascisti, for enlightened Nazis…And do not let me leave you in the slightest doubt as to the scope and ambition of what I am putting before you…These new organizations are not merely organizations for the spread of defined opinions…the days of that sort of amateurism are over-they are organizations to replace the dilatory indecisiveness of democracy. The world is sick of parliamentary politics…The Fascist Party, to the best of its ability, is Italy now. The Communist Party, to the best of its ability, is Russia. Obviously the Fasicsts of Liberalism must carry out a parallel ambition on still a vaster scale…They must begin as a disciplined sect, but must end as the sustaining organization of a reconstituted mankind.”
 
Thucydides said:
Perhaps Toyotatundra might try looking up where the term "Liberal Fascism" comes from. It was quotemined from a speech by H.G. Wells:

Of course, one of the ironies of Goldberg's denunciation of "liberal fascism" is that Hitler was such a passionate enemy of liberalism.

There are no shortage of anti-liberal quotes one can mine from Hitler. A rather humorous presentation of them is available in the Hitler vs. Ann Coulter quiz. The fact that a person struggles to tell Coulter from Hitler, is in my opinion, a rather pointed statement on how nonsensical our pundit rhetoric can become.

http://www.giveupblog.com/hitlercoulterquiz.html
 
And as we attempt to parse the differences amongst philosophies and determine when on the circle counter-clockwise totalitarianism becomes clockwise totalitarianism, libertarianism becomes anarchy and liberty becomes licence,  I offer this partial list of alternatives......
 
Kirkhill said:
And as we attempt to parse the differences amongst philosophies and determine when on the circle counter-clockwise totalitarianism becomes clockwise totalitarianism, libertarianism becomes anarchy and liberty becomes licence,  I offer this partial list of alternatives......

Looking over that list, I think we should design a calendar. A different philosophy for every day of the year.

July 8th: Mereological nihilism
 
Brad Sallows said:
>Jonah Goldberg is an idiot, and that book is just a brutal hackjob for people who lack the ability or willingness to actually look deeper into their history

Have you read it?  If you have, I think you misunderstood it.

Yes, of course I have.  It was one of the worst written books I've ever read, and more importantly, it contained a lot of nonsense.  Excerpts from speeches and writings removed from their context to fit the book's viewpoint, used over and over again.  It's drivel, nothing more.
 
A look at another "progressive" meme, in this case radical environmentalism. The one sided "documentary" approach is pretty standard fare, but even tht cannot hide the true face of the eco terrorists:

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/when-eco-terrorists-attack/?print=1

When Eco-Terrorists Attack
Posted By Christian Toto On July 9, 2011 @ 12:00 am In Uncategorized | 10 Comments

[1]
If a Tree Falls wants audiences to rally behind Daniel McGowan, a soft-spoken fellow facing life in prison for crimes committed with the Earth Liberation Front [2].

What director Marshall Curry can’t do is make McGowan worth our sympathy. The eco-terrorist is immature, arrogant, and unable to take full responsibility for his actions.

If a Tree Falls: A Story of the Earth Liberation Front [3] is gripping all the same, a fascinating peek into what passes for the soul of the eco-terrorist movement.

McGowan is as extreme an environmentalist as one could imagine even if he doesn‘t rant and rave like a panelist on MSNBC. We see him soaping up a plastic bag in order to re-use it and hear about the time he took off all the labels on his sister’s food cans so he could recycle the paper. The fact that she then couldn’t tell what was in each can didn’t cross his mind.

He’s a portrait of arrested development, a man who grooved on the vibe of the environmental movement as well as its street cred. We don’t snitch on each other, man, so don’t ask us, he says.

Except plenty of his old pals did just that.

McGowan’s radicalism began when he met a woman collecting signatures for an environmental cause. From there he watched a video of trees being cut and smoke belching out into the beautiful blue sky.

He was hooked.

McGowan’s story likely echoed some of his fellow ELF members. But there’s no attempt to dig deeper into their psychology. Most environmentalists wouldn’t burn down a logging plant or put the lives of strangers at risk.

The reasons for the ELF’s violent nature will seem inflated to any clear-thinking viewer. The environmental protestors bemoaned the slow pace of progress for their cause. And, when they hurled stones at police during some protest, the police hit back.

Change takes time. It also involves affecting the hearts and minds of enough people to rally to your side. But the ELF members were unable to do that in large enough numbers.

Curry clearly has a soft spot for these eco-hooligans. If a Tree Falls stacks the talking head deck squarely on their side. Only late in the film do we hear from law enforcement officials who helped round up McGowan and his co-horts with the kind of crime solving panache that would make a Law & Order highlight reel.

The film employs a number of devices to humanize McGowan. We get a close-up of the bracelet which prevents him from leaving his home following his arrest, see grainy film of him as a young boy, and meet his girlfriend, a woman willing to stand by her man no matter what.

McGowan, often seen wearing a T-shirt calling President George W. Bush an international terrorist, doesn’t like it when he gets labeled a “terrorist.”

“No one got hurt, no one got injured,” he whines. And while that’s true, could his buddies ensure that before the fact? Fires spread. Firefighters die in the line of duty. People show up in places where they’re not supposed to be all the time.

Any one of their actions could have led to innocents being killed. And what about the people whose livelihoods rested on the buildings he burned? One ELF arson target was destroyed over erroneous information.

ELF lied, buildings died.

A fascinating moment arrives mid film during one of the few interviews of the victims of the ELF crimes. A logger patiently describes how his industry replaces the trees cut with new ones. Otherwise, the industry wouldn’t be self-sustaining.

“We re-grow these trees….It’s the law,” the man says, a moment of sanity in a film teeming with cloaked figures boasting poorly assembled ideas.

But it’s not really all about the environment. The ELF is anti-capitalist to its core.

Curry soberly recalls the ELF’s rise, both in its early protests and the events which helped radicalize it, like when the Forest Service tore down a protest wall ELF members had erected. The group responded by burning a pair of ranger stations to the ground. One of the stations incurred $5.3 million in damages [4]. There’s certainly an argument to be made against lumping McGowan and his co-horts in with the likes of al-Qaeda. McGowan faced a lifetime in prison based on post-9/11 rules [5]. Tree dutifully makes the case that McGowan doesn’t deserve to share a cell with shoe bombers.

And anyone who ever spent hours protesting with nothing to show for it beyond blistered feet will understand the frustration at how slow actual change can happen. But it’s hard to square those concerns with the ELF’s actions.

A lack of diverse voices hurts Tree’s otherwise gripping narrative. Where are the more moderate environmentalists? Does ELF have some solid arguments? Was Curry afraid to find out the answers?

Instead, we hear more from McGowan, who at one point fondly recalls one of his first violent acts, smashing stores that dared to be a part of the capitalist system.

“It felt good to take out my rage on these corporate windows,” he says.

If a Tree Falls amounts to a feature-length rationale for burning down places that don’t agree with your worldview. It’s far more valuable for illuminating the folks who take such actions.

Article printed from Pajamas Media: http://pajamasmedia.com

URL to article: http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/when-eco-terrorists-attack/

URLs in this post:

[1] Image: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVPH4hntyq8
[2] Earth Liberation Front: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Liberation_Front
[3] If a Tree Falls: A Story of the Earth Liberation Front: http://www.imdb.com/news/ni7540246/
[4] $5.3 million in damages: http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2002/fall/from-push-to-shove/eco-violence-the-rec
[5] on post-9/11 rules: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002977626_terrorist07.html
 
Brad Sallows said:
Just the sort of well-reasoned, fact-filled review I expected.

There are a myriad of well-written critical reviews out there, spend 30 secconds on google and you can find commentators from across the spectrum shredding the book.  Why would I waste my time writing out another that you'd ignore anyhow?

Here's a couple good ones:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/morte/2008/01/the-definitive-critique-of-lib.php

http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=jonah_goldbergs_bizarro_history
 
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