So if it is OK to have "Specialist Cyber warriors" who will never deploy and therefore do not need to meet the U of S guidelines, why can't we have Lawyers, Supply Techs, Logistics Officers, Padres, Specialists/Medical Officers, Dentists, Physician Assistants, Medical Assistants, Dental Technicians that are not required to be deployable or meet U of S so we could retain them and provide continuity in support roles at Bases. Oh yes, I forgot - "Soldier First" does not apply on a case by case basis.
Cyber Operator trade Mega Thread
- Thread starter Eye In The Sky
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Dare one consider a civilian CS2/3 with a special skills bonus for the skills they possess that 95% of their peers don't? Solves the UofS issue and they can still be on the Defence TeamTM.
:dunno:
Regards
G2G
:dunno:
Regards
G2G
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Simian Turner said:
A decent chunk of Australian military doctors, dentists and the like are "Specialist Reserve" in that they only request to deploy and aren't posted to a base. They maintain practices or work in civilian hospitals wherever they are. Granted, these are more for specialists than GPs.
medicineman
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There going to have to be some sort of medical standard for these creatures, especially if their special hideaway is up in Ungabungaluktutuk or they're expected to go somewhere bad...since they'll still have to (literally) carry their weight over hill or dale if something goes boobies up (and since that Irish drunk Murphy has a big nose that's in everyone's business, it will). Strangely enough, people that are treated like/act like mushrooms tend to be less healthy than those that get good food, sunlight and exercise regularly - if we're going to employ mushrooms, they'll have to be healthy enough to be sent where they might be needed AND not be able to be looked after as well as they would be in a large urban centre.
:2c:
MM
:2c:
MM
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Eye In The Sky
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meni0n said:
I used 1 guy I know who is a Pilot as an example.
Are you suggesting that Cyber is the most hardcore, hard to train MOSID? Seriously...you (potential) guys need to get the fuck over yourselves before you even get going. Do you know what CRIPT was/is? I know them, I shared office space with them. They are SMEs in what they so, just like a Med Tech is, or a veh tech is. The trade will be just as special as any other trade is. FULL STOP. If I spent the same amount of time training to be Cyber that I have to be an AES Op, I'd be a SME in that, too. 6 months work as a payload operator can equal XXX,XXX salary a year for UAV type, civie side, with the right experience.
You have no idea what my training or knowledge is, actually. Don't take the term scope dope literally. I have a friend who has done Red/Blue team stuff that will tell you anyone can be trained in cyber, just like any other trade, and some will be better at it than others...just like any other trade.
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Cyber should be compensated "just like JTF2". Holy fuckballs, over.
Jarnhamar
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There's no shortage of computer guys and girls in school. From what I recall most can't find work in their field because of the saturation level.
While milage varies every member of the CAF should be prepared (and capable of) grabbing a rifle, grenades and bayonet and manning a trench on the other side of the world.
The "what about injured members" is a slippery emotional slope. IMO does a 12 year veteran who can't deploy anymore still have a lot to offer the military? Yes. Does someone with 1 year in and unable to deploy? Not as much.
meni0n
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Eye In The Sky said:I used 1 guy I know who is a Pilot as an example.
Are you suggesting that Cyber is the most hardcore, hard to train MOSID? Seriously...you (potential) guys need to get the frig over yourselves before you even get going. Do you know what CRIPT was/is? I know them, I shared office space with them. They are SMEs in what they so, just like a Med Tech is, or a veh tech is. The trade will be just as special as any other trade is. FULL STOP. If I spent the same amount of time training to be Cyber that I have to be an AES Op, I'd be a SME in that, too. 6 months work as a payload operator can equal XXX,XXX salary a year for UAV type, civie side, with the right experience.
You have no idea what my training or knowledge is, actually. Don't take the term scope dope literally. I have a friend who has done Red/Blue team stuff that will tell you anyone can be trained in cyber, just like any other trade, and some will be better at it than others...just like any other trade.
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Just because you can't really accept that a trade will require really smart and competent people with really specialised training, that's not really my problem. If you want to sit there and tell yourself that anyone can be trained for any trade in the CF, go ahead. Being just ok at this is really not an option because it could mean one mistake away from attribution or even a bigger blunder which will cause major issues. No one really wants that.
I'll give you an example, I'm part of a trade that's supposed to have very technically minded people. But, in reality, there is really a small amount of really IT smart people. And, even if we choose someone to go to all the technical courses we got, they are still no better than when we started, which is why we are having a hard time filling positions that require really good IT technical skills.
Another example, I got a buddy that was chosen to go to CFNOC. He wasn't the most technical guy and sure he went to do all the training, at the end all he was doing is opening some alerts and forwarding them. Basic buttonology without any analysis. And even though he was taught everything he needs to know to be a good analyst, if I open up wireshark and throw some pcaps in there, he'll have a very hard time fully analysing it.
Point I am trying to make is that, just because the traditional military training that you're used to has worked for most of the military trades, doesn't mean that it will work in this instance.
Lastly, no I haven't heard of CRIPT, which leads me to believe that they what they were doing had little to nothing to do with Cyber and the fact that you're naming them means that they weren't working at the classification that was of impact, at least in the sense of cyber that the CF wants to do.
In regards to the JTF2 like allowance, you can patronise me all you want but that's the rumour going around at the moment and like I said if they don't move the trade into a Spec group, will most likely need such an allowance.
I get the impression people think these cyber guys will be hardcore hackers like MR. Robot. More than likely they will be computer literate individuals who will use tools provided to them to do the jobs they need to do. They will be military script kiddies. Anyone with an internet connection and a decent understanding of networks and computers who is willing to invest the time to learn can "hack".
The guys making the tools will be civilian contractors most likely working for the NSA or another of our allies. They will be making 6 figures and will likely never leave home (possibly literally).
The guys making the tools will be civilian contractors most likely working for the NSA or another of our allies. They will be making 6 figures and will likely never leave home (possibly literally).
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EITS,
The difference between an AES Op and a potential cyber trade is the demand of those skills in the private sectors and the number of people that can complete training, can be very good technically and have a level of critical thinking that allows them to operate with little supervision.
Not to diminish the AES Op trade, but the demand of your technical skills in the civilian sector isn't that great and I bet you that most operators are pretty good at what they do, probably because how you operate your equipment doesn't really deviate from the standard procedures established. I imagine that a cyber operator would require a level of critical thinking and problem solving skills beyond what you would require on a daily basis. Companies hire people with those skills already and with the training and experience brings, they will be sought after. So yes, there needs to be some measures from which we will retain those skills, training and experience. And forcing them to stay by signing for x years won't cut it. We have to make the CAF an attractive employer. If we need to change some of our policies then so be it. We need to adapt to today's realities and care for our people.
Making them public serveants could be an option but it becomes difficult to make them conduct offensive operations (without the unlimited liability portion). IMO, any trade that conducts offensive operations should be uniformed.
And then there is the argument of every soldier should be able to deploy because of terrorism. Using that logic, every civilian should meet the standards for deployments. That is non-sense. We have people that are trained and paid to take up weapons and start shooting when fhit hit the san and that transfers to most current trades. Nothing says cyber operators could have basic weapons quals (like most non-combat trades. I shoot 9mm once a year and C-7 never). If they are actually needed here, things really went wrong and an unfit cyber operator or a NDHQ Admin Loggie would stand on equal foot IMO.
The difference between an AES Op and a potential cyber trade is the demand of those skills in the private sectors and the number of people that can complete training, can be very good technically and have a level of critical thinking that allows them to operate with little supervision.
Not to diminish the AES Op trade, but the demand of your technical skills in the civilian sector isn't that great and I bet you that most operators are pretty good at what they do, probably because how you operate your equipment doesn't really deviate from the standard procedures established. I imagine that a cyber operator would require a level of critical thinking and problem solving skills beyond what you would require on a daily basis. Companies hire people with those skills already and with the training and experience brings, they will be sought after. So yes, there needs to be some measures from which we will retain those skills, training and experience. And forcing them to stay by signing for x years won't cut it. We have to make the CAF an attractive employer. If we need to change some of our policies then so be it. We need to adapt to today's realities and care for our people.
Making them public serveants could be an option but it becomes difficult to make them conduct offensive operations (without the unlimited liability portion). IMO, any trade that conducts offensive operations should be uniformed.
And then there is the argument of every soldier should be able to deploy because of terrorism. Using that logic, every civilian should meet the standards for deployments. That is non-sense. We have people that are trained and paid to take up weapons and start shooting when fhit hit the san and that transfers to most current trades. Nothing says cyber operators could have basic weapons quals (like most non-combat trades. I shoot 9mm once a year and C-7 never). If they are actually needed here, things really went wrong and an unfit cyber operator or a NDHQ Admin Loggie would stand on equal foot IMO.
meni0n
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Tcm621 said:
Without going too much into specifics but hardcore hackers is more closer to the mark than you think. Having a computer program where you put in a IP address and expect results is not realistic or even possible. There are a lot of factors that need to be taken into consideration and each situation is unique as is each large network out there. There would also need to be many things done before you even come to the stage of going after a target which can only be done by very competent and technical people. I don't even want to touch the attribution aspect.
Eye In The Sky
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meni0n said:
I completely accept a trade will require really smart and competent people. Not limited to pilots, Cyber, SOF. I really hope the Flt Srgn knows their stuff, the pharmacist, the dentist. My 24 years experience instructing in the CAF tells me that anyone can be trained and some people will have more aptitude and proficiency, including any/all things IT. Before my remuster, I wore a Jimmy cap badge. I've been (limited) exposed to the Cyber battlespace by the CAF folks who were doing *cyber* before it was talked about in public (also wearing Jimmy capbadges). I spent X years working in a HQ G6 environment up to Branch 2 I/C, worked with IT, INFOSEC, COMSEC...I am not pulling an opinion out of my arse here. I decided that stuff wasn't where I was best suited and moved on.
Your example supports what I said above; not everyone is going to finish top of the class. Same will be true in Cyber, flying training, or a Combat Team Commanders course.
Well, that is easy to assume if you make presumptions about my education, experience or knowledge. I've been in the CAF since 1989, but only an AES Op since 2010.
Ok. ;D IPT = Information Protection Team. There was more than one, and they were spread out across the country. PM your name and I'll put you in touch with a former one who then went to Blue/Red teams and is at the Mothership now.
I'm saying..if you think Cyber is as hardcore (in the IT kind of way) as JTF2..well. I think that's stretching it.
Will Cyber require good, solid Ops? You betcha. Just like my trade does. Or Sonar Op. Because in any of those trades, if people fuck up, bad things can happen.
I think it is unlikely they will be opening up a terminal window and coding on the fly. They will likely be using penetrative tools to attack networks. I don't mean to down play it but these are not going to hackers as people commonly think of them. They will be more akin to pen testers as part of an IT security company. These people are very well trained professionals and they are in high demand but there is no reason we can treat them like any other high demand military professional like NDT techs. There are a lot of military trades that can earn you six figures (especially in the energy sector) and we treat them like any other military member.meni0n said:
Eye In The Sky
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SupersonicMax said:
Aside from the *demand in the private sector* part...honestly, you're also talking about a good A Cat NASO or ASO as well. Seriously. I'd even say more so for the ASO side; I've seen them look like their heads have been hammered after hard box or mission. Tracking a boomer...well, I'd guess that is pretty challenging too.
I know you, like 99% of the CAF, don't know what my trade really does and to what level we delve into things like tactics. People think AES Op and they think scope dope, ping monkey, or the guy/gal holding the flag off the end of the hoist cable on a Sea King during a photo op. That's ok, MH AES Ops who never see the inside of a MPA don't *get* what LRP AES Ops do, and vice versa. If we don't really get each others jobs between fleets (other than the dual-qual guys), I don't expect the other classifications/trades who don't work with us to understand. I'll finish the para by simply saying there's more to my job than watching a RADAR turn and button-mashing; the 2 year upgrade to go from Basic to Advanced Cat isn't centered around crayon drawings and finger painting. Right? That's after 1+ year of pre and post Wings training. Lots of trades take lots of time to train to *OFP and proficiency*. Like, NET in the Navy, ATIS Techs...the list goes on.
But if you're ever in ZX and doing a RON, let me know and I'll see if we can arrange to get you in a box as a NASO for a ASuW box, or, even better, an ASO for an ASW box. Get you in the ASO, NASO and Tac seat. :nod: Maybe I'll convince you we aren't just self-loading meatbags. 8)
If hiring, and wages are the main concern...do like they have done/are doing with PAs. Make them all commissioned. We do this with dental officers (I believe they make a crapload of money compared to even Pilots, who make more than GSOs), legal officers, etc. Cyber isn't going to be a big trade, right?
Aside from that, after watching the ACISS melt down from the sidelines...does anyone have faith in the C & E branch to really birth and burp this particular baby the right way??
Offensive operations that could cause loss of life, or just loss of service? To me, there's a difference.
Question; how are other NATO militaries setting up their Cyber forces? Are they non-deployable, *who cares about your fitness?* forces or are they another military trade performing to the same minimum standards as the others in uniform?
Yup, we want the right people BUT we also want them to join us for the right reasons. IMO.
Eye In The Sky
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I'll sum up...I've derailed this enough.
- cyber will need good people and be a challenge, in many ways. I hope it doesn't go off the rails.
- I think we might be going too far with this whole non-deployable people thing. As CountDC mentioned, what about burnout for those left to do the OUTCAN work? Having done 3 CJOC type ROTOs in very short time recently (well less than 24 months) for a sustained OP, plus exercises and training in/outside Canada, and another less-known CJOC op a few times, it sucks to be the person going out the door...again..and again.
- I'll wait to see the CDS vision and intended End State with hopes this one is done right, if it is done.
- cyber will need good people and be a challenge, in many ways. I hope it doesn't go off the rails.
- I think we might be going too far with this whole non-deployable people thing. As CountDC mentioned, what about burnout for those left to do the OUTCAN work? Having done 3 CJOC type ROTOs in very short time recently (well less than 24 months) for a sustained OP, plus exercises and training in/outside Canada, and another less-known CJOC op a few times, it sucks to be the person going out the door...again..and again.
- I'll wait to see the CDS vision and intended End State with hopes this one is done right, if it is done.
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CRIPT had/has a defensive cyber security mandate and leveraged reservists with the skillsets required. They got special training, but none of those folks got that training and ran to the civvies sector AFAIK.
Let's keep in mind here that Cyber Op is a trade with a name, and that's it. We barely have the semblance of an employment concept, how many PYs, and where they are going to work. The employment concept is critical to what pay level they will receive, so conjecture about paying them SOF-esque allowances is not really anything other than pissing into the wind at this point.
Let's keep in mind here that Cyber Op is a trade with a name, and that's it. We barely have the semblance of an employment concept, how many PYs, and where they are going to work. The employment concept is critical to what pay level they will receive, so conjecture about paying them SOF-esque allowances is not really anything other than pissing into the wind at this point.
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So I looked into how the American's are doing it, just to see how it's organized. Most of the US Army's Cyber capabilities (Defensive and Offensive Cyber Ops) are captured under the US Army Cyber Command, and specifically the 780th Military Intelligence Bde, which has 2x subordinate MI Bn's. As of 2015, they stood up the Cyber Operations Specialist (17C) MOSID.
The trade is an entry level-job:
https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/browse-career-and-job-categories/computers-and-technology/cyber-operations-specialist.html
Currently qualifying for a 7K(USD) enlistment bonus, and as of 2015, qualifying for an Assignment Incentive Pay of 250/300/500$.
Job training for a cyber operations specialist requires completing 10 weeks of Basic Combat Training and two phases of Advanced Individual Training (AIT). Phase one is located in Corry Station, FL for 25 weeks and phase two is located in Fort Gordon, GA for 20 weeks.
Trade requirements:
So basically, entry-level job, have to complete basic, medium fitness required, and deployable. Potential for some waivers, but must complete their Individual trg (which looking at the curriculum, is quite heavy). They are separated into national mission teams, combat mission teams (which are in direct support of combatant commands), and cyber protection teams. They get some extra money, but not a huge amount in the scheme of things.
As a personal side, considering the information available to a cyber op, and the potential threat, I would hope that our own Cyber Ops would be required to complete Conduct after Capture level C, which you can certainly argue has a requirement for some level of physical fitness.
The trade is an entry level-job:
https://www.goarmy.com/careers-and-jobs/browse-career-and-job-categories/computers-and-technology/cyber-operations-specialist.html
Currently qualifying for a 7K(USD) enlistment bonus, and as of 2015, qualifying for an Assignment Incentive Pay of 250/300/500$.
Job training for a cyber operations specialist requires completing 10 weeks of Basic Combat Training and two phases of Advanced Individual Training (AIT). Phase one is located in Corry Station, FL for 25 weeks and phase two is located in Fort Gordon, GA for 20 weeks.
Trade requirements:
So basically, entry-level job, have to complete basic, medium fitness required, and deployable. Potential for some waivers, but must complete their Individual trg (which looking at the curriculum, is quite heavy). They are separated into national mission teams, combat mission teams (which are in direct support of combatant commands), and cyber protection teams. They get some extra money, but not a huge amount in the scheme of things.
As a personal side, considering the information available to a cyber op, and the potential threat, I would hope that our own Cyber Ops would be required to complete Conduct after Capture level C, which you can certainly argue has a requirement for some level of physical fitness.
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I started replying here with a lot of details I'd found on the US Army's Cyber Op MOSID, but realized it was better suited in the Cyber Op mega Trade:
http://army.ca/forums/threads/125966/post-1492367.html#msg1492367
Key take-away from that post that is relevant to this one is this:
The trade is an entry level trade, all trg provided, with some potential for waivers on previous experience/training. They get some incentive allowances, but not a huge amount (max 500$ as of 2015). 7K Enlistment bonus.
Physical demand rating of MEDIUM, and they are deployable.
http://army.ca/forums/threads/125966/post-1492367.html#msg1492367
Key take-away from that post that is relevant to this one is this:
The trade is an entry level trade, all trg provided, with some potential for waivers on previous experience/training. They get some incentive allowances, but not a huge amount (max 500$ as of 2015). 7K Enlistment bonus.
Physical demand rating of MEDIUM, and they are deployable.
