CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21

[Kirkhill]

Funny how the universe throws coincidences your way.

Just after I scanned some of the this discussion earlier today I was working on another project.  And this came to my eye.

"They that approve a private opinion, call it opinion; but they that mislike it, heresy: and yet heresy signifies no more than private opinion."

Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan

I recall seeing, upthread, somebody saying something about property rights not be real rights, not like human rights.  Sorry I can remember who offered that but I felt compelled.

To whomever said it.  I suggest that that assertion is a statement of belief.  It is an opinion.  It is untestable and thus unresolvable.  I'm sure that Smith and Hume, Rousseau and Voltaire, Locke, Hobbes and Hutchison have all weighed in on the issue and found each other equally unpersuaded.

That is why issues are best resolved not on a standard of rightness but simply community opinion - justices of the peace, juries, parliament, general populace - the answer is what the community wishes, as determined by one person more than the other side.  For the time being.  You can ask the question again during the next parliament.

As I assert my belief and state my opinion.  :cheers:

 

[X Royal]

What some seem to miss about my comment is it won't matter if the PPC win seats but they will take votes from the right side.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That's because no politician will touch the issue with a ten foot pole.  If I remember correctly it was the Conservatives under Kim Campbell that tried to regulate it, but it died with the election.

It would be interesting if the Supreme Court ever found that unborn babies were persons, and the women's rights argument went completely out the window.  It wouldn't be completely unprecedented, women themselves have only been legally considered to be persons for less than 100 years in Canada.

I was just about to say the same thing. the current definition of life is legally neat, but not much else. A science based approach would blow it out of the water. However such a ruling has massive consequences beyond abortion. if the mother is not willing able to protect a fetus that is considered a person, then it would be up to the State to do so. Thinking how the State would protect that fetus if it had to remain in the Mom is not pretty, drug the mom and keep her in a induced coma? Two separate set of rights within the same body will get messy. Not to mention child support will start prior to birth as well. I can guarantee you that without an outside force making it impossible to ignore, no major political party is going there any time soon.

 

[PuckChaser]

What some seem to miss about my comment is it won't matter if the PPC win seats but they will take votes from the right side.

Last time I looked, any votes potentially syphoned from the Tories were not close to changing the outcome of any riding in the last election either negatively or positively. Bernier overestimated how many diehard libertarians there were in the Tories that would follow him to the PPC. Maybe if the ridings were closer they'd matter, but likely only in popular vote which means nothing in Canadian elections except to partisans looking for shallow victories.

Likely going to be the same story for Wexit. They'd have to pull 30% support in most ridings out west to even put the Tories in danger.

 

[lenaitch]

Nope.  The PM must be a MP as they are the head of government.


https://www.canada.ca/en/privy-council/topics/structure/machinery-government/westminster-government.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westminster_system


EDIT: An MP is a Member of Parliament, which includes the Senate.  But Senators have only been named PM under exceptional circumstances; it is normally a member of the House of Copmmons.

I see nothing in the links that supports the requirement that the PM must be an MP or even a Senator, and am not aware of any legal requirement, either in the Constitution or subordinate law.  True, that for all practical purposes, it has become a de facto requirement.  The nation and the reality of party politics would not stand for a PM that could not participate in the proceedings of the House.  As well, there is no doubt legislation regarding security, intelligence, etc. that would hinder access.

Our parliamentary system is based on tradition and precedent built up over hundreds of years with respect to Westminster.  In my opinion that is both its strength and weakness.

 

[brihard]

What some seem to miss about my comment is it won't matter if the PPC win seats but they will take votes from the right side.

Didn’t miss that at all. I made note of how that may matter, but not in the way they want it to.

Last time I looked, any votes potentially syphoned from the Tories were not close to changing the outcome of any riding in the last election either negatively or positively. Bernier overestimated how many diehard libertarians there were in the Tories that would follow him to the PPC. Maybe if the ridings were closer they'd matter, but likely only in popular vote which means nothing in Canadian elections except to partisans looking for shallow victories.

Likely going to be the same story for Wexit. They'd have to pull 30% support in most ridings out west to even put the Tories in danger.

Assuming every PPC vote came from The CPC, the PPC vote splitting resulted in six ridings going Liberal instead of CPC. It didn’t have any impact on the parliamentary balance of power.

 

[Brad Sallows]

The possible fight on the right pales in comparison to the one that is brewing on the left.  The stuff the LPC propose to launch in the fall is a direct attack on the NDP's lunch.

 

[Halifax Tar]

The possible fight on the right pales in comparison to the one that is brewing on the left.  The stuff the LPC propose to launch in the fall is a direct attack on the NDP's lunch.

You are on point.  But I see it as a hostile take over of the NDP position and policies, as well as an extreme left wheel by the Liberals.  After this fall it behooves both the NDP and Liberals to combine, they would be unstoppable, the conservative movement just isn't big enough in Canada.  The Liberals may bleed a few Blue Libs but I don't see that having much of an impact.

Just my :2c:

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

The possible fight on the right pales in comparison to the one that is brewing on the left.  The stuff the LPC propose to launch in the fall is a direct attack on the NDP's lunch.

Not sure it would be much of a fight, the NDP will just cease to exist.

Unfortunately I think Halifax Tar is right that a united left would be nigh unstoppable. Even if the CPC became the "centrist" party, I think that the yard sticks have moved so much to the left and as things get worse economically due to the spending binge of the Trudeau Liberals, looking at other countries that went down this road there's little stomach for the "austerity" measures that a more reasonable party would have to impose.

 

[Donald H]

Good question.

I don't think there's an easy, clear-cut answer because SoCons are not all in agreement on what constitutes "social conservatism". And as I think you allude to in asking whether it exists, it has changed over the years as well. I would say that, broadly-speaking, "the social conservative's position" is pro-life/anti-abortion at minimum and to some extent. That, frankly, may be the common denominator. I think generally a favour for the traditional nuclear family and an opposition to marriage that does not fit that paradigm. I don't think any SoCon would actually advocate making homosexuality illegal, but they would object to LGBTQ propaganda being taught in schools (opinions will differ on what constitutes "propaganda" and what is necessary stuff for children to learn in school).

That was well stated IMO LBD. I thought for a moment you were going to point out some area of disagreement with my 'socially' Liberal opinion on LGBTQ rights, but then you went and qualified your position, which left nothing to disagree with.

For myself, I agree with Navy_Pete in his distinction between anti-abortion and pro life, broadly (although he and I may disagree on to what extent government can and should be involved in the pro-life things he lists). As a SoCon myself I certainly would prefer to see an approach that attempts to tackle the factors that make people want to have abortions by building the economy, giving support to single mothers, etc. As stated earlier in this thread, simply outlawing abortion is at best a fool's errand that would never accomplish anything positive no matter what side of the spectrum you're on.

Exactly! Social correctness is a Canadian thing now and differs little from party to party. Another reason why Canada leads the world in "quality of life"!

 

[Remius]

A good start for Mr. O'Toole.

I for one will be paying attention.  So far I like what he says.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/o-toole-conservative-leader-vision-1.5698713

 

[Donald H]

A good start for Mr. O'Toole.

I for one will be paying attention.  So far I like what he says.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/o-toole-conservative-leader-vision-1.5698713

Wow! O'Toole is pro-choice and in favour of transgender rights! Social conservatism truly has taken on an entirely new face!

 

[Remius]

A good tactic.

Put all of that the rest early. 

 

[Navy_Pete]

Wow! O'Toole is pro-choice and in favour of transgender rights! Social conservatism truly has taken on an entirely new face!

He also previously had made some noises in the opposite direction.  It's almost like he's a politician playing both sides of the fence.. that would be unheard of.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/erin-otoole-social-conservative-leadership-1.5613399

 

[Good2Golf]

Wow! O'Toole is pro-choice and in favour of transgender rights! Social conservatism truly has taken on an entirely new face!

Disaffected Socons can always vote for the LPC leader, next time. He’s personally pro-life, even if his party is pro-choice.

 

[Donald H]

He also previously had made some noises in the opposite direction.  It's almost like he's a politician playing both sides of the fence.. that would be unheard of.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/erin-otoole-social-conservative-leadership-1.5613399

Yes of course Pete, but we have to take him at his word until he blows the cover. Still, it's hopeful isn't it!

 

[OldSolduer]

Wow! O'Toole is pro-choice and in favour of transgender rights! Social conservatism truly has taken on an entirely new face!

Not a hard stretch as society has pretty much accepted that pro choice and LGBTQ recognition is here to stay and can't be reversed.

Its like trying to get the genie back in the bottle.

 

[blacktriangle]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't find O'Toole very inspiring. I would have preferred Leslyn Lewis. She's fresh and I think could have put Trudeau in his place. I hope she runs again. If that makes me a nut job or a SoCon, so be it.

Otherwise, I think the only chance for Canada is to hope that the LPC one day comes back to centre and embarks on some kind of fiscal turnaround like they did in the 90's.

I'm all for making Canada a better place, but it has to be sustainable. Will we end up with "The Just Society" or just a failed state? I guess time will tell.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Not a hard stretch as society has pretty much accepted that pro choice and LGBTQ recognition is here to stay and can't be reversed.

Its like trying to get the genie back in the bottle.

Quite right. And by stating it clearly and unequivocally first and right off the bat, he takes that completely off the table for the Libs to use against him, as they did with AS.

Smart politics if you ask me.

 

[OldSolduer]

Quite right. And by stating it clearly and unequivocally first and right off the bat, he takes that completely off the table for the Libs to use against him, as they did with AS.

Smart politics if you ask me.

I'm all for making Canada a better place, but it has to be sustainable. Will we end up with "The Just Society" or just a failed state? I guess time will tell.

Here in lies the question. Lets hope that saner heads prevail and learn that a failed drama teacher isn't exactly a good candidate for the top elected office in the nation.

Stephen Harper also stood up in Parliament and declared Quebec to be a distinct society within Canada - which it is. The same can be said of First Nations and Metis people.