CPC Leadership Discussion 2020-21

[Brad Sallows]

>My problem with social conservatists in the Conservative Party is that they are trying to hijack the party so that they can push their restrictive agenda.

The problem is simply that parties have sub-factions, and the more a party tries to extend its reach, the more sub-factions it has.  As long as conservatives have a single party, the tensions are internal.  Without a single party, it doesn't matter whether one is pure Type I or Type II, because neither party will ever gain political power. 

We don't see similar tensions in our other parties because the schism on the left resulted in two permanent political parties long ago.  Democrats in the US are having severe problems right now because their adherents are scattered over an ever-extending range of political ideas; Republicans have no corresponding problem (yet) because their collective adoption of change is much slower (they occupy a narrower slice of "spectrum") and they start with a greater proportion of people who share Type I and Type II beliefs.

 

[mariomike]

... back to Dr. Lewis. I can't really find anything about her other than what I've read in this thread. It does not inspire confidence in me that she couldn't even win her seat locally. She might have great policies (I don't know because her website doesn't say much) but we need a "winner" leading the party.

All that said, I have to admit I agree with you Jarnhammer -- I'd be really interested to see how the "conserative = old white racist" narrative would be handled by the media and the LPC with a lady like her, who goes against their stereotypes, at the helm.

Or this,

I don't imagine we'll be seeing her in Parliament.

Another addition to the disarray of the Conservatives, ignoring the moderate centrist voters by appealing to the further right, which tends to only bleed off votes to the Libs/NDP (or abstain).  :not-again:

        :2c:

 

[FJAG]

...The problem is simply that parties have sub-factions, and the more a party tries to extend its reach, the more sub-factions it has....

That's absolutely true. The problem is that when a given faction realizes how important it is to making its selected party electable (as the Tea Party did with the GOP), it starts to develop a level of influence out of all proportion to its actual numbers or the reasonableness of its policies for the country.

The social conservative wing of the GOP has succeeded because the margin between the Dems and Repubs is very narrow and social conservatives could make the difference. In Canada there is a preponderance of social liberals who from time to time can be won over to by a fiscally conservative party but never by a socially conservative one. We need to get back to being "progressive conservatives" but that will probably just end up creating another "reform" party that wants to reform us back eighty years in time.

:deadhorse:

 

[Good2Golf]

True, FJAG, but some would rather outlaw abortion and rescind homosexual rights and lose to the Liberals than soften their stance.  They’ll then turn it into an us/them East-Central v. West thing when it lets the LPC get another ‘full-pull’ and claim that they weren’t the ones being unreasonable or socially regressive.  Just wait, MacKay will become leader and the Reform/Alliance crowd will be at it again, failing to truly appreciate it was the socially progressive, fiscally conservative support that turned the tides and ousted Martin/Chretien in 2005.

‘On verra.’

Regards
G2G

 

[The Bread Guy]

... MacKay will become leader and the Reform/Alliance crowd will be at it again, failing to truly appreciate it was the socially progressive, fiscally conservative support that turned the tides and ousted Martin/Chretien in 2005 ...

A lot can happen between now & the next federal election, but I'd bet a loonie on this, too.

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

True, FJAG, but some would rather outlaw abortion and rescind homosexual rights and lose to the Liberals than soften their stance. 

As a social conservative myself, I'm forced to agree with this. It's to the point that I don't even discuss politics much anymore with people from church because they can't see this and they just have such tunnel vision on the abortion issue. As I said, supra, I am fully pro-life but there is no "political" solution to this ... the Supreme Court would strike down any abortion law and even if it didn't juries would acquit. It's spitting into the wind. We need to look beyond single issues and be a bit more pragmatic. CPC is still way better than LPC and as I keep trying to convince people, the best government is one that just leaves its citizens alone on these social issues because we don't like it when liberal governments force stuff on us. [/rant]

They’ll then turn it into an us/them East-Central v. West thing when it lets the LPC get another ‘full-pull’ and claim that they weren’t the ones being unreasonable or socially regressive.  Just wait, MacKay will become leader and the Reform/Alliance crowd will be at it again, failing to truly appreciate it was the socially progressive, fiscally conservative support that turned the tides and ousted Martin/Chretien in 2005.

I would say that it was the combination of the social conservative AND the fiscally conservative/socially progressive vote that ousted Martin/Chretien. Neither was able to do it alone prior to that.

I am less sure that there is much motivation to form a breakaway party at this juncture, even if (when) Peter MacKay is proclaimed leader. We saw how spectacularly the PPC failed (although arguable its not a socially Conservative party). I am inclined to think people will stick around. Maybe if the LPC had a slightly less offensive leader there'd be more stomach ... so I'll take the loonie bet on the side that the CPC stays together, albeit with grumbling.

That said, the CPC leadership would have been better off to just let Richard Décarie run for leader, and let him flame-out on his own. By unilaterally denying his bid despite meeting the criteria, they give more fuel to the malcontents who can now say that there's a "conspiracy" of Red Tories running the party from the shadows. I'm still skeptical that any large numbers will bail on the CPC if MacKay becomes leader.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>some would rather outlaw abortion and rescind homosexual rights and lose to the Liberals than soften their stance. 

And some would rather vote elsewhere (while pretending that so-cons have some meaningful probability of enacting the so-con agenda) and lose to the Liberals than soften their stance.

To summarize what I've expressed before: it would take a so-con majority to realize the so-con agenda; no such majority exists or could reasonably be elected.  People inclined to vote conservative should just go ahead and vote conservative without fear.

 

[Good2Golf]

That will likely happen, Brad. The shame is there are a small number of Blue Liberals who could be swayed if it weren’t for the ‘I’m not going to not say it isn’t what I wouldn’t support (anti-abortion, etc.) attitude...I think MacKay will capture a few of them anyway this round, so there’s still hope.

 

[suffolkowner]

I don't think it's possible to overemphasize the impact of the so-cons within the Conservatives or how they are viewed from outside the party. Just look at the last leadership convention to me you have so-con candidates or sympathetic or candidates easily associated with that demographic approaching 70% of the votes in the first round

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Conservative_Party_of_Canada_leadership_election

 

[LittleBlackDevil]

I don't think it's possible to overemphasize the impact of the so-cons within the Conservatives or how they are viewed from outside the party. Just look at the last leadership convention to me you have so-con candidates or sympathetic or candidates easily associated with that demographic approaching 70% of the votes in the first round

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Conservative_Party_of_Canada_leadership_election

Was that become social conservatives make up 70% of the CPC voting members, or were people voting for these candidates for other reasons? I think it's interesting to look at where the votes went as candidates dropped out. By the 12th round, those left standing were Maxime Bernier (not socially conservative), Erin O'Toole (not really socially conservative), and Andrew Scheer (social conservative). It was only because the Supply Management/Dairy Farmers threw their weight behind Scheer en masse that he was able to defeat Bernier.

 

[mariomike]

I think it would be difficult for a CPC leader who doesn't march in the parade to win ...

To march, or not to march?

They cancelled it this year.

 

[Navy_Pete]

[...]

In Canada there is a preponderance of social liberals who from time to time can be won over to by a fiscally conservative party but never by a socially conservative one. We need to get back to being "progressive conservatives" but that will probably just end up creating another "reform" party that wants to reform us back eighty years in time.

:deadhorse:

I think you will find that a political party that is fiscally responsible while staying out of people's bedrooms would generally be acceptable to the average Canadian at least until they were impacted by cuts ( see Paul Martin's Liberals). Most people don't have a party affiliation and tend to vote for the least bad option.  For a similar example, look to the UK, where they voted in a bunch of obviously inept, elitist con men because they couldn't bear to see Corbyn in power.

I think with the demographic changes any anti-abortion or anti-homosexuality line is basically a silver bullet for the other guy, as the general level of social liberalism is rising with each generation, especially if Gen Z starts to get out and vote in large numbers (as they are the ones that are starting to hit their early 20s). Scheer was too wishy washy about his views and would give a weasly politician answer, so no one trusted him not to give a voice to the social conservative faction and raise the anti-abortion line again.  Generally speaking I don't trust career politicians much anyway, but that also probably didn't help either. Pretty hard to take criticism of JT's track record seriously from someone who has never really had a job outside of politics (which is a similar problem for Polliviere)

I would hold my decision until I saw the platform, but generally speaking I liked MacKay when I met him, and would have no problem voting for him if he ran on a PC platform. I would guess that there are a big enough chunk of the Canadian populace that would back the same horse.

Total aside, the leader I liked the most in the last election was actually Singh; he seemed to bring common sense to the table, but still couldn't bring myself to vote for the NDP (the local candidate was a token one from the fringe of the party). If his party had a reasonable spending platform they would be a viable alternative. People are looking to vote for a party other than the liberals, but as long as the SoCon elements in the Conservatives keep getting air time, forget it. No one wants to roll back society to the 50s.

 

[FJAG]

Up until a few days ago when they suspended the campaign I was getting a hockey sock full of ads every day. McKay and O'Toole were pretty much the same and together they outnumbered everyone else by about 10 to 1. Both would send out bursts of information about what their campaign stood for (when not cutting down Trudeau's many failings.

One other one stands out -- Sloan who keeps asking for donations to help him role back political correctness and make the world safe for Evangelical Christians to speak their minds both inside and outside of parliament.  :brickwall:

No wonder why so many Canadians shake their heads about the CPC.

:cheers:

 

[Weinie]

Up until a few days ago when they suspended the campaign I was getting a hockey sock full of ads every day. McKay and O'Toole were pretty much the same and together they outnumbered everyone else by about 10 to 1. Both would send out bursts of information about what their campaign stood for (when not cutting down Trudeau's many failings.

One other one stands out -- Sloan who keeps asking for donations to help him role back political correctness and make the world safe for Evangelical Christians to speak their minds both inside and outside of parliament.  :brickwall:

No wonder why so many Canadians shake their heads about the CPC.

:cheers:

Don't care. Rather this chaos than a system whereby voters actually don't get to discern who they support. Notwithstanding, I would like to see a system where Sloan supporters actually have a vote. It's called democracy. As to shaking their heads, holy crap, there are all kinds of wackos out there, and if you need to see, I will cram your e-mail with nutbars.

 

[FJAG]

Don't care. Rather this chaos than a system whereby voters actually don't get to discern who they support. Notwithstanding, I would like to see a system where Sloan supporters actually have a vote. It's called democracy. As to shaking their heads, holy crap, there are all kinds of wackos out there, and if you need to see, I will cram your e-mail with nutbars.

Damn. You'd think I'd know the difference between "role" and "roll" by now.

I agree. I like seeing my candidates say what they really think. Certainly helps me make my decision. I expect his supporters will have a vote just like I'll have.

Don't need to see any more wackos or nutbars. Have seen enough since 2016.  ;D

:cheers:

 

[dapaterson]

Don't need to see any more wackos or nutbars. Have seen enough since 2016.  ;D

Only started looking four years ago?

 

[FJAG]

Sigh  :facepalm::

A poem for the MP for Sarnia-Lambton and her recent hydroxychloroquine endorsement

Tabatha Southey: Marilyn Gladu seems to think this medicine could easily get the Canadian economy back on its feet again. How to get through to her? Through poetry, of course.

By Tabatha Southey
April 20, 2020

Last week, Sarnia-Lambton MP, former Conservative health critic and current candidate for leader of the Conservative Party, Marilyn Gladu, took time off from hoping to one day lead the country to promote the drug hydroxychloroquine as a miracle cure for the deadly illness that currently has much of the world on lockdown.

Ms. Gladu’s argument seems to be that this medicine, when taken with a disregard for human life, or at least the facts, could easily get the Canadian economy back on its feet again.

Hydroxychloroquine (which is used to treat rheumatoid arthritis, malaria and lupus) has not been found to be an effective treatment for COVID-19. Many were therefore surprised (and by that I mean appalled and alarmed) when, on Wednesday, Gladu told Blackburn News that, “In the United States they’ve been successful with the treatment of hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin and zinc sulfate. They’ve tried this on thousands of COVID patients, with nearly 100 per-cent recovery rate, and so the FDA has approved this as an emergency measure, but Canada has not.”

...

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/a-poem-for-the-mp-for-sarnia-lambton-and-her-recent-hydroxychloroquine-endorsement/

:cheers:

 

[FJAG]

Conservatives blast MP who asked whether top pandemic doctor 'works for China' as Scheer steers clear
Scheer refuses to comment on Derek Sloan's words, says it's up to him to explain them
Kathleen Harris · CBC News · Posted: Apr 23, 2020 2:24 PM ET | Last Updated: 3 hours ago

A Conservative leadership candidate is facing an angry backlash online — and from some of his own caucus colleagues — after he suggested Canada's chief public health officer is working for China and should be fired for giving bad advice to the government on the COVID-19 crisis.

Derek Sloan, an MP from eastern Ontario who is running to lead his party under the slogan "Conservative - Without Apology," posted a message and video on Facebook and Twitter this week claiming that Dr. Theresa Tam had "failed Canadians."

"Dr. Tam must go! Canada must remain sovereign over decisions. The UN, the WHO, and Chinese Communist propaganda must never again have a say over Canada's public health!" he wrote.

...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sloan-tam-china-coronavirus-pandemic-1.5542497

Well, all I can say about this is that it doesn't change my opinion of Sloan one bit. It couldn't have been any lower to start with.

:facepalm:

 

[YZT580]

Whilst I don't like his slant on the issue he is correct: there are a lot of questions re: our Chinese relationship that need to be addressed.  Way back in early January the talk around the table was all disbelief in what both China and the WHO were saying: remembering SARS etc.  But you don't address an issue by attacking the participants.  The expression don't shoot the messenger is appropriate.  He should have devoted his video to addressing the very real issue of trust.  Instead he shot himself in the foot  He is not mature enough

 

[Remius]

Whilst I don't like his slant on the issue he is correct: there are a lot of questions re: our Chinese relationship that need to be addressed.  Way back in early January the talk around the table was all disbelief in what both China and the WHO were saying: remembering SARS etc.  But you don't address an issue by attacking the participants.  The expression don't shoot the messenger is appropriate.  He should have devoted his video to addressing the very real issue of trust.  Instead he shot himself in the foot  He is not mature enough

She is of Chinese origin/descent.  That is the reason he made the link and the insinuation. 

Can’t wait to see how this plays out in the leadership campaign...